Need GM Clarification: Player to Player Housing Sales a Violation of ToS?

Recently, I have heard rumors and then others have posted screencaps of those who sent inquiries through the reports system that led to one or two GMs telling them that the trade is a violation.

Is this true?

When did it become a violation or what -is- it a violation of?

Most of us were under the impression that the "sale" or "trade" process is not a violation so long as the terms of the agreement between players involve NO RMT, all the details are clearly defined in-game, and everything involves in-game currency.

One such conversation screencapped here:
http://i.imgur.com/1hlnHfc.png

still trying to find that thread here where a dev or GM confirmed you can sell/trade/buy houses from other players.

Looks like a staged conversation used through recolouring /echo messages to look like /tells.
A GM with their character's first name being "Gm", really? Next we'll be getting screenshots of Sultanate members sending tells, wanting to share their fortunes with us.

If that's a real convo, which I'm not sure it is, that GM was incredibly unhelpful and vague. Keep in mind a lot of support reps have canned responses even if they are not always the correct response; it keeps tickets cycling quicker. :/

Loads of players sell their property and I doubt any of them have had action taken against them. I think there's a thread floating around that said that buying/selling/trading isn't against the rules. So either this GM is misinformed (wouldn't surprise me) or the forum GM was misinformed.

Edit: I would assume selling/buying a house would be treated like a trade agreement, which is confirmed as being allowed by forum GM's, however, if you get scammed they won't be able to guarantee to help you get your gil back.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Syrehn

If that's a real convo, which I'm not sure it is

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Not really sure what the OP would gain by going through all that trouble to make up a GM convo, and then heading over to the forums to ask for clarification.

But OP: No need to censor the GM's name; he/she was speaking officially.

Honestly... I don't believe this "GM" for one second. We've had people buying and selling houses on the official forum for so long...There is no way it's against the rules. All those threads would have been deleted forever ago.

I think some guy is trying to stir up drama because he doesn't have a house and doesn't want to pay another player. lol. Housing is being address in 3.1...

Elim hit it spot on. If house trades were a violation, they would have removed the thousands of house trading threads.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Etiken

Elim hit it spot on. If house trades were a violation, they would have removed the thousands of house trading threads.

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To add onto this.

People make posts about buying/selling houses all over the official forum too. Not just in the housing forum. They get posted in general discussion and server forums as well. There is no way the GMs somehow "missed" all the threads.

Might there be a misunderstanding/poor choice of words behind this?

From what I understand you cannot actually transfer ownership of a house from one player to another player - at least not without violating a whole bunch of rules.
What can be done is to pay ('bribe') another player to relinquish ownership of a plot of land, which you (or anyone else who is quick enough) can then buy.

I wonder if it might be the first case that the GM claimed is not allowed, while the second case is what players usually refer to when they talk about selling houses.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Indoxer

Looks like a staged conversation used through recolouring /echo messages to look like /tells.
A GM with their character's first name being "Gm", really? Next we'll be getting screenshots of Sultanate members sending tells, wanting to share their fortunes with us.

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While I do see the recent issue with the fact that it was staged... here is an example of legitimate messages. I myself have spoken to GMs a few times over harassment reports. They do use "[GM]Gm ____"
http://i.imgur.com/QweHQsV.jpg

I will also note however, that I made a thread in March 2015 selling a plot of land in the Balmung section and the thread was deleted.
http://i.imgur.com/XYPbabE.png

So yes, I understand that this case is made as a hoax, but the naming convention has been used before -and- I had a thread in March deleted because it was about selling it. :/

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Elim

I'm pretty sure your thread was deleted because of your wording. Why would they delete your thread and not all the others selling houses?

edit:

Also... It might not be a good idea to post that. X.X Maybe black out your actual post part? Because it was deleted off these forums for a reason.

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It said the moderator's sole discretion and the reasoning was "Advertising the sale of land". You are as confused as I am why my thread was deleted and others not. I never mentioned RMT but I did mention PMs. But... that's a forum function?

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Originally Posted by ExKage

It said the moderator's sole discretion and the reasoning was "Advertising the sale of land". You are as confused as I am why my thread was deleted and others not. I never mentioned RMT but I did mention PMs. But... that's a forum function?

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Then I'd go as far as to say it's fake?

Maybe I'm being stubborn here, but it makes no sense why yours was deleted and all the others weren't. O.O

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Originally Posted by Elim

Then I'd go as far as to say it's fake?

Maybe I'm being stubborn here, but it makes no sense why yours was deleted and all the others weren't. O.O

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You mean my email and the thread being deleted are fake?

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Originally Posted by ExKage

You mean my email and the thread being deleted are fake?

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The email.

If it's not fake then maybe contact customer service and ask to have the warning removed from your account? Because it doesn't make sense.

I've read the forum ToS pretty heavily, given I'm probably perma banned next time they ban me, and I can't see anything in what you said that's against any of their rules...

EDIT: And that email isn't fake. Or at least, whomever posted it has seen one before, because it's formatted exactly the way all of mine are, and the phrasing they use for the non-form letter parts is the same/similar. I totally believe that SE is banning people for trading houses, I just don't get why or what rule it's violating...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Elim

The email.

If it's not fake then maybe contact customer service and ask to have the warning removed from your account? Because it doesn't make sense.

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I'm not sure why anyone would then also spoof from -and- delete my thread though. I checked the day I got the notification and they did delete the thread.
from: noreply@square-enix.com
to: emailredacted@gmail.com
date: Fri, Mar 6, 2015 at 10:57 AM
subject: FINAL FANTASY XIV FORUM Post Modification Notification
mailed-by: square-enix.com

Why would they spoof square-enix.com, I'm not sure how?, and also know that my thread was deleted just to... do that?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ExKage

I'm not sure why anyone would then also spoof from -and- delete my thread though. I checked the day I got the notification and they did delete the thread.
from: noreply@square-enix.com
to: emailredacted@gmail.com
date: Fri, Mar 6, 2015 at 10:57 AM
subject: FINAL FANTASY XIV FORUM Post Modification Notification
mailed-by: square-enix.com

Why would they spoof square-enix.com, I'm not sure how?, and also know that my thread was deleted just to... do that?

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Like I said, if it's not fake, I'd personally try to contact a GM and ask for the warning to be removed. It's not fair. I'd be very upset if I received that email.

Oh, wait, it's right there in the email. They can declare anything against the rules at their sole discretion, which they have done. No selling land, period.

If you're wondering why they haven't taken down the other threads, it's the same reason they don't ban everyone who complains about how RMT is handled (criticizing SE is actually against the forum ToS), just some of them.

For those unfamiliar with the forum ToS, here's a copy of it. I bolded the ones I see people violate all the time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=5382&la=1&tag=forum

• Posting content that does not follow the theme of the category or thread.
• Posting content that deviates from topics concerning FINAL FANTASY XIV.
• Posting spam, including meaningless characters and white space.
• Posting a number of posts with the same content.
• Taking or discussing criminal actions.
• Posting that constitutes discrimination against another forum member or group (also including forming groups for the purpose of discrimination), insults, slander, libel, harassment of a group or individual.
• Use of inappropriate or aggressive language.
• Posting obscenity, pornography, propaganda, or other expressions unrelated to the game.
• Posting about commercial, business, advertising, political, or religious matters.
• Posting that would violate anti-stalking laws or orders.
• Posting personal information about yourself or other specific individuals.
• Posting aimed to create a negative impact on the community or its members.
• Impersonating another person or taking action that might reasonably be mistaken as the actions of another.
• Reproducing, duplicating, altering, supplementing, changing, or other secondary use of this Service’s software, either whole or in part.
• Posting seeking to damage or disparage Square Enix, the forum, FINAL FANTASY XIV, or others.
• Posting content that seeks to interfere with the running of FINAL FANTASY XIV.
• Posting content with the intention of criticizing either Square Enix staff or specific individuals.
• Doing anything that is obstructs the use of the forum or FINAL FANTASY XIV for other users.
• Infringing upon Square Enix's or any third party’s intellectual property (copyright, trademark, etc.) rights or privacy rights.
• Undertaking any RMT-related actions, including selling items, gil, or accounts for real world currency.
• Attempting to harm or obstruct the operation or use of this forum.
• Doing anything that is prohibited in the the Square Enix Account Terms of Use.
• Taking any other actions that are deemed inappropriate by Square Enix in our sole discretion.

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These aren't enforced 100% of the time. If they deleted every single post that violated the ones I bolded, we wouldn't have anything left!

I actually wonder if it was the line "You will then have to pay a separate fee to Square Enix" that triggered mod action. While the majority of players would understand what was being said in the the message; we're not actually paying SE a fee.

Maybe they didn't want players to get the wrong idea based on the wording? Other than that phraseology, it's weird that they would take 1 down and not the hundreds of others.

Edit: The first sentences also have them calling the FC leader names and cursing. This could be a contributing factor as well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Syrehn

I actually wonder if it was the line "You will then have to pay a separate fee to Square Enix" that triggered mod action. While the majority of players would understand what was being said in the the message; we're not actually paying SE a fee.

Maybe they didn't want players to get the wrong idea based on the wording? Other than that phraseology, it's weird that they would take 1 down and not the hundreds of others.

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No, the email contained the reason for the mod's action. The reason was listed explicitly as "Taking any other actions that are deemed inappropriate by Square Enix in our sole discretion. - Advertising the sale of land"

Again, practically half the posts on this forum violate the forum's ToS, but they don't delete every post with aggressive language, or that criticizes SE, or that was made to have a negative impact on the community. Why do they delete some and not others? I have no idea, and I'm not about to be critical about the way they do it. Just because they don't take action on every single violation doesn't mean something isn't against the rules.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nyalia

No, the email contained the reason for the mod's action. The reason was listed explicitly as "Taking any other actions that are deemed inappropriate by Square Enix in our sole discretion. - Advertising the sale of land"

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I honestly can't believe that was the sole factor for mod intervention; despite it being listed. Buying/Selling land would essentially be considered a Trade Agreement and SE forum mods have specifically stated that they allow those; they just can't guarantee gil recovery if things go south.

Hence my suggestion about the phraseology of the post itself possibly contributing to a mod flagging the thread.

I will note, I'm not contesting the actions just that others mentioned that no threads were deleted. Just saying that the reason given for mine, in my experience, was this. The fact that it was sole discretion was the reason why I did not question the action. I also did not name names so I haven't seen people acted on for that... even with the very appropriate of the time aggressive language >.>

Why is it the whole thread derailed into trying so hard to prove the conversation is fake instead of talking about what this would mean if true?

Denial (its a fake email), anger (why is the thread derailing), and bargaining (but then the entire server would be banned because they're all doing it) are the first 3 stages of dealing with loss and grief. And we're in grief because that email means it's illegal to buy a house now. And there's no point in arguing or speculating since it is very clear the letter implies a ban for any buyers/sellers.

Anyway, I'd really like to see a GM pick up the question and settle it once and for all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Indoxer

Looks like a staged conversation used through recolouring /echo messages to look like /tells.
A GM with their character's first name being "Gm", really? Next we'll be getting screenshots of Sultanate members sending tells, wanting to share their fortunes with us.

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[GM] in front of the name, and the one I got after reporting a troll in a run was formatted the same.

As well as " Gm" being first name.

Probably the caps ExKage posted is right. Because i had a thread in housing section for to buy a house from a player and SE sent me a e-mail that i violeted user-aggrement policies. Here is the caps also. But in the mail they say i want to buy the house with RMT. But i didn't even say that i want to buy it like that. Still not sure if buying a house with gil a violation or not...

http://i.hizliresim.com/WZN9jQ.png

I'm surprised that nobody has pointed out that this may be a very new policy brought in because of the changes about to be introduced to the housing system? It would make sense that they are going to discourage player to player transfers if a proper system is coming that would make the transaction 'secure' by being an in game function.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kaeira

Probably the caps ExKage posted is right. Because i had a thread in housing section for to buy a house from a player and SE sent me a e-mail that i violeted user-aggrement policies. Here is the caps also. But in the mail they say i want to buy the house with RMT. But i didn't even say that i want to buy it like that. Still not sure if buying a house with gil a violation or not...

http://i.hizliresim.com/WZN9jQ.png

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They quoted several sections from the Guidelines. The RMT stuff was just one - probably beacause it was not clear from your post how you wanted to pay for it.

But they also quoted the catch-all section:
"Taking any other actions that are deemed inapporopriate by Square Enix in our sole discretion."

Taken literally this means that absolutely any action can be a violation of the Guidelines if they decide it is.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Culfinrandir

I'm surprised that nobody has pointed out that this may be a very new policy brought in because of the changes about to be introduced to the housing system? It would make sense that they are going to discourage player to player transfers if a proper system is coming that would make the transaction 'secure' by being an in game function.

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This could be the underlying truth. They never intended for a secondary market for plots to exist so now that they are preparing a way to fix the system they could have decided to start culling the unintended activity.

I've just come to accept that any personal house I get won't likely be until after Ishguard wards come out. I dont even have the 50k Gil to get the new fishing ros I need right now so I'm to broke to be a land owner. Lol.

The thing is though if they deem the ToS a binding contract no where in there does it specify property sales as a prohibited activity, nor was it added to any update on their website. They can't expect to tell one person it is a violation and for all others to follow suit. It would have to be updated on their prohibited activities list and we would have to re-accept the contract. When ever Sony does an update changing the ToS we have to click on accept as it being our signature. This never happens with this game.

Even though they say that they can deem any action against the rules that action would still need to put forth for everyone to see, not one person in a convo with a GM or an e-mail, in the real world world it would never hold up, and not so sure it would here either as it is not specifically mentioned anywhere in the ToS. Word of mouth is not a binding contract. They do say that the list of prohibited activities can be updated to add items, as of now it is not listed therefore can not be expected to be prohibited, worse they could do is say "don't do it again". If someone was actually banned from the game and took the time and money to fight it, it would probably be thrown out. They want to use the ToS to protect themselves, it can be used against them because it does not specify actions to take against property sales. There is no prior warning as to what could happen if players engage in property sales. Thats my take on it.

I can buy an item off the MB and then relist it at any price I want. How is that different from buying a property and reselling it at any price you want?

Its still considered an in game item bought with in game currency. As long as no RMT is involved, no issues.

I also recently received an email from SE after posting in the forums about wanting to buy a house:

"Dear Customer,

We have determined that the post you made on 09-18-2015 11:55 PM (PDT) was in violation of the User Agreement policies listed below. The post was edited or deleted accordingly.

Thread Title:
WTB Small/Medium Mist House in Leviathan

Relevant sections from the FINAL FANTASY XIV Guidelines:
Undertaking any RMT-related actions, including selling items, gil, or accounts for real world currency.
Doing anything that is prohibited in the the Square Enix Account Terms of Use.
Taking any other actions that are deemed inappropriate by Square Enix in our sole discretion."

In regards to people who thought the email that was posted earlier was fake...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Culfinrandir

I'm surprised that nobody has pointed out that this may be a very new policy brought in because of the changes about to be introduced to the housing system? It would make sense that they are going to discourage player to player transfers if a proper system is coming that would make the transaction 'secure' by being an in game function.

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I think that this is a good thing ...hopefully :)
It might be that they are gonna improve housing/trading and make more houses for everyone \o/

There's comments in this thread that suggest that the ToS are some kind of archaic, inflexible & unchanging document. I have a shock for you, all ToS (also job contracts if you have read one) have clauses that state "Plus any other changes, variations or decisions we may make without prior notice", or words to that effect. The actual line SE use has been quoted by others.

In short, what SE says, goes. If they wanted to ban all users wearing a green chest piece at midnight they could do so WITH NO REASONING OR RECOURSE AVAILABLE. Simple. You play on their terms, even terms that only SE know.