Area design between 2.0 and 3.0, and going into 4.0...

So, this is a bit different of a topic,but it's something I'm personally really geeky about... environment/zone design in games.

While I find HW's areas to be really impressive in terms of feeling really "grand" and open, I feel like they're not quite so interesting or detailed as the 2.0 zones are.

I'm guessing the size of 3.0's zones (so far) contribute to why they're designed as they are, with a lot of re-use of large and easily recognizable pieces. However, I think something was lost in terms of detail and variety. What they have in scale, they seem to lack in other aspects, and I find, with the exception of some specific locations, they became less interesting to explore as I spent more time in them.

They also feel a bit more "rushed" in some spots - specifically the Hinterlands, where there is some really sloppy texturing work (I'm talking some *serious* tiling artifacts), especially along certain cliffs and ground areas. There's also very repetitive use of the same assets in a very small area. It stands out as it is, but compared to the level of quality in the 2.0 areas, it's really apparent.

Mind you, I'm talking open world areas here. The dungeons in HW are stunning. Gorgeous. I've nothing but good to say about anything I've seen so far there. The shots we've seen of the Void Ark looks equally amazing.

This difference in detail/quality really struck me since I finished HW's story line (at least pre-3.1). Rather than jump into the HW end-game, I've gone back to the old zones to level other jobs, and work on other things. So, I'm spending a lot of time in those areas and I'm finding that even over time, after 2 years, these areas still continue to impress me. I'll still stop and just look around at areas I've been through dozens of times, with no less awe at what SE's environment artists created. The attention paid to even the smallest details, the creativity and the variety in them - even within a single zone is just so well crafted. The texturing work is impeccable. Everything just works together, cohesively.

While I hop on a mount (ground or air) to get somewhere in HW areas with little interest in the surrounding environment, I find myself running on foot to places in the 2.0 zones, just because they're still so awesome to look at and explore.

I'm not saying the HW areas are terrible. They're still quite nice to look at, for the most part, and there are some really neat looking locations. I'm just saying that, aside from their size, in every other way, I feel they're subpar, overall, compared to the 2.0 areas.

I have a feeling the size of the areas, and the challenges that presents in terms of resource management/streaming, as well as filling areas so large with a lot of interesting things at the same level of detail is extremely difficult. The designers may well have not had the time to put the same amount of detail into them. It's certainly not a case of their designers lacking the talent.

So.. I guess, for me, going forward, I think I'd prefer to see areas that are smaller - maybe halfway between HW and 2.0 size; with a mix of wide open areas as in HW, but with variety and attention to detail closer to what we see in 2.0's areas.

I think everything in 3.0+ feels "rushed". Its still good but much less time seems to be spent and much less love...maybe they need a bigger dev team to properly handle making more game content. But unfortunately with big companies its all about profit and as so FF14 will continue to feel "rushed" with all new content.

What really annoys me is that they placed Alexander in what would have been easily the most beautiful space on the game.

Look at 1.0 for copy paste game design lol

That being said, I feel like they really pushed it on the wow factor for 2.0 because they were trying to revive a total failure and needed that to draw people in. Now, it's a success and they dialed it back a bit so (hopefully) after they're vacation they can really bring they're A game to content releases vs just the pretty zones.

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Originally Posted by RozaB

Look at 1.0 for copy paste game design lol

That being said, I feel like they really pushed it on the wow factor for 2.0 because they were trying to revive a total failure and needed that to draw people in. Now, it's a success and they dialed it back a bit so (hopefully) after they're vacation they can really bring they're A game to content releases vs just the pretty zones.

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Yeah, I don't think anyone will argue that 1.0's environment design was all kinds of bad. From early on in the alpha/beta releases, I was getting that impression, but wasn't sure if it was just me being unfamiliar, etc. Then the famous "copy pasta" video came out, and I thought "Okay... I'm not crazy"

Thing is, all games re-use assets. In the best cases, they're used/reused creatively so you can never easily tell they're being reused. 2.0 pulls this off very well in its zones. HW, they got kinda lazy/sloppy with it, and it's very apparent in some spots.

The tireless explorer/environment geek in me just hopes they take more time with future areas and bring them closer to the level of the 2.0 zones.

HeavensWard: How to train your Dragon 3.0?

Yeah, I never jumped on the "give us bigger locations" train and I guess that after 3.X it would be better to return to smaller and more detailed locations with NPCs chitchatting and stuff..

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Originally Posted by StrejdaTom

Yeah, I never jumped on the "give us bigger locations" train and I guess that after 3.X it would be better to return to smaller and more detailed locations with NPCs chitchatting and stuff..

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Well it depends on how the zones are designed, a game world can "feel" big without actually being that big. Best example I can come up with for a game like that is the overworld for Shadow of the Colossus, if you've played it, the game world feels huge but it really doesn't take long to travel from one end to the other, but the way the graphics and the skyboxes are done it certainly "feels" like a huge sweeping world.

The areas designed to be that huge in order to house and justify one of the key elements and one of the most advertised feature, Flying. That's the reason we got that huge areas. SE decided to go with the safe route in budget with FFXIV ARR after 1.0 huge flop. They lost crazy amount of money and they decided to scale down the game. This is why on some elements game got degraded in comparison with 1.0. For example graphics. While lighting and shadows are improved texture resolution and quality along with grass and plants look so cheap and 2004ish. Bushes are 2-3 cards and textures are horrible when you look at them for a relatively close proximity like in cutscenes. Still game looks better but it's obvious they do everything with limited personnel and budget. They already explained and admitted that. Dev team is focused on frequently patching the game with fresh content in order to keep players and attract more.

I don't have any source to back my claim, but I seem to remember that Yoshida said the developpers left unused space in the new zones in anticipation for the next patches (I think he said that in the stream where he introduced the new job abilities).

Some zones do look a little bland now that I can fly, especially the Hinterlands and the Sea of Clouds, but otherwise it doesn't bother me that much.

I remember this too. Something about it being really hard to fit new quests and events into 2.0 area`s because they`re already so tightly packed. I`m sure anyone who`s tried to do one of the Slyph transport missions only to have a FATE spawn on top of you know what I`m talking about.

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Originally Posted by Riardon

The areas designed to be that huge in order to house and justify one of the key elements and one of the most advertised feature, Flying. That's the reason we got that huge areas. SE decided to go with the safe route in budget with FFXIV ARR after 1.0 huge flop. ... more stuff...

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It seems like you're talking about 2.0 and changes made from 1.0. All good points/insights where 1.0 is concerned, but I'm not referring to 1.0 at all in my post. 1.0's pretty much a non-factor at this point.

I'm referring to the environment design in 3.0, and how it differs and is - in my opinion - a downgrade from that of 2.0's areas.

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

Well it depends on how the zones are designed, a game world can "feel" big without actually being that big. Best example I can come up with for a game like that is the overworld for Shadow of the Colossus, if you've played it, the game world feels huge but it really doesn't take long to travel from one end to the other, but the way the graphics and the skyboxes are done it certainly "feels" like a huge sweeping world.

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That's a great example! And a great game :)

Scale and size isn't even really the core of my issue. To me, I'd like to see them make the areas as large as they can, while still maintaining a higher level of variety in the areas, and more attention to detail, in the small land features, the texturing quality (again, it's pretty sloppy/poor in some spots in HW) and just generally show the level of care and attention in newer zones that they clearly put into the 2.0 areas.

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

It seems like you're talking about 2.0 and changes made from 1.0. All good points/insights where 1.0 is concerned, but I'm not referring to 1.0 at all in my post. 1.0's pretty much a non-factor at this point.

I'm referring to the environment design in 3.0, and how it differs and is - in my opinion - a downgrade from that of 2.0's areas.

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1.0 does have some relevance to your complaint. Do you know why the maps were so boring and repetitve in 1.0? PS3 limitations. Part of the playerbase wanted one seamless world and were very vocal about it so the devs listened. Unfortunately they also promised a PS3 release, so to make a seamless world even remotely plausible for such a weak console they had to re-use assets over and over. 3.0 looks to me like Yoshi's attempt to find a good middle-ground between 1.0 with it's sprawling (if boring) landscapes and 2.0s gorgeous corridors. I'm going to take a wild guess and say that they re-used a good number of assets in the HW areas to make the new areas playable on PS3.

Yoshi said future expansions will continue to support flight, so I doubt we'll see such detailed maps as 2.0 had ever again.

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Originally Posted by Reinfeld

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Uh, what?... The game was never released on PS3 because it couldn't handle it, that should give you a hint that it wasn't truly made with PS3 in mind. The problem is the development team was lazy in designing the areas, and that may be understandable on a large scale world, but not because it was large due to the copy and pasting. I honestly don't want "large" areas, I want connected areas without loading screens in between them. I want it to be a seamless world, I want to be able to hop into an airship and actually fly on it to the other areas similar to WoW.

Well art and graphics are more well liked by some than others. Personally, whether ARR looks better or not is moot to me.
Which of the two has more gameplay elements? I like running inside pretty things too, but roleplaying Mr.Fed-ex man and instance hopping pales in scope to flying and exploration content imo.

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Originally Posted by Colorful

Uh, what?... The game was never released on PS3 because it couldn't handle it, that should give you a hint that it wasn't truly made with PS3 in mind. The problem is the development team was lazy in designing the areas, and that may be understandable on a large scale world, but not because it was large due to the copy and pasting. I honestly don't want "large" areas, I want connected areas without loading screens in between them. I want it to be a seamless world, I want to be able to hop into an airship and actually fly on it to the other areas similar to WoW.

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The game was never released on PS3 because 1.0 was a complete flop. Maybe you weren't watching the game at the time, but a PS3 release WAS promised and it WAS designed with PS3 limitation in mind. They decided to release it on PC first to start making $$$ off it, with PS3 following when it was ready. 1.0 never got the promised PS3 release because it got canceled for 2.0 work.

I'm not a developer so I can't really comment on what kind of strain a seamless world puts on systems, but I'm sure there's a reason I'm too lazy to look up (server stress? allows lower spec PCs to play?) as to why most games go with zones.

the main issue with fying is that empty space in the sky (sea of clouds is awesome just because that)...and since we move faster....or above the trees , hubs and what not we dont notice the "world" anymore , but everyone here sure remembers how painfull was navigating w/o flying in the new zones :P

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

the main issue with fying is that empty space in the sky (sea of clouds is awesome just because that)...and since we move faster....or above the trees , hubs and what not we dont notice the "world" anymore , but everyone here sure remembers how painfull was navigating w/o flying in the new zones :P

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I definitely agree with "not noticing the world" any more. I won't pretend to be one of those people who take pleasure strolls through the digital meadows, but it does have some nice areas and a relaxing feel to it. Though I feel like the Sea of Clouds could have been so much more if they stuck with the 2.0 style of map.

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Originally Posted by Arkann

I don't have any source to back my claim, but I seem to remember that Yoshida said the developpers left unused space in the new zones in anticipation for the next patches (I think he said that in the stream where he introduced the new job abilities).

Some zones do look a little bland now that I can fly, especially the Hinterlands and the Sea of Clouds, but otherwise it doesn't bother me that much.

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Yes, during a HW preview live letter he said that a problem with the smaller 2.0 zones was the limited space for additional patched events or contents. With the bigger 3.0 zones they have now enough space to fill it up with the time without that it will start to feel cramped.

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Originally Posted by Reinfeld

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It may have been planned, but there was no way it was going to happen. It struggled to run on mid to high-end PCs at the time? The PS3, the development team must have been dreaming. As for your pitfalls of a seamless world, I can't think of any that would stem from something other than early stage development problems (i.e they created the game with instanced areas in mind).

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Originally Posted by Colorful

It may have been planned, but there was no way it was going to happen. It struggled to run on mid to high-end PCs at the time? The PS3, the development team must have been dreaming. As for your pitfalls of a seamless world, I can't think of any that would stem from something other than early stage development problems (i.e they created the game with instanced areas in mind).

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At 1.0 launch the PS3 version was announced for march 2011, but got delayed after SE changed the FF XIV team.

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Regarding the PlayStation 3, it is not our wish to release a simple conversion of the Windows version in its current state, but rather an update that includes all the improvements we have planned. For that reason, we have made the difficult decision to delay the release of the PlayStation 3 version beyond the originally announced date of March 2011.

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[Delay of the PlayStation 3 Version Release]
Although the release date for the PlayStation 3 version of the game was previously announced as late March of 2011, we regret to inform that this date has been changed.

The PlayStation 3 release will be delayed until we are confident that the game has reached the level of enjoyability and service befitting the FINAL FANTASY name for users on all supported platforms. We offer our sincerest apologies to any fans anticipating the PlayStation 3 release, and humbly ask for your continued patience and understanding as both the development team and Square Enix as a whole strive towards making FINAL FANTASY XIV a truly enjoyable and unforgettable adventure.

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http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78378

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Originally Posted by Felis

At 1.0 launch the PS3 version was announced for march 2011, but got delayed after SE changed the FF XIV team.

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I'm aware it was announced for it, saw it for preorder back in stores awhile back. Still, that doesn't explain how they'd manage to make it run and have it remain above 20 FPS without reducing it to 420p or whatever.

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Originally Posted by Colorful

I'm aware it was announced for it, saw it for preorder back in stores awhile back. Still, that doesn't explain how they'd manage to make it run and have it remain above 20 FPS without reducing it to 420p or whatever.

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Who knows. Turning down textures and shading? Then again the game was still in Alpha state when they released it so....shrug.

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

the main issue with fying is that empty space in the sky (sea of clouds is awesome just because that)...and since we move faster....or above the trees , hubs and what not we dont notice the "world" anymore , but everyone here sure remembers how painfull was navigating w/o flying in the new zones :P

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I agree with this. Much of the detail is lost because everyone is just flying over it. The zones are bigger in size, but with the increase in flying speed, several of the old zones still take longer to go from one side to the other.

Flying is cool and all, but i almost wish there was some kind of "limit" to give us more reason to explore the ground.

Did the devs just skimp out on land details because of time restrains, or did they realize that so few people are going to be on the ground to look at them?

Something else that has always bothered me is before release the devs showcased how difficult the open world mobs are. While yea, they did pose a minor issue when leveling, but once we can fly? They might as well made everything non-aggressive with 1hp.

I was just thinking about making this kind of thread, haha.

But I agree, the more "condensed" 2.0 maps are much nicer. The originally storyline felt so varied how you're going all across Eorzea in so many zones. Running through the story on the alt, I realized the new areas are just too empty for me. It fits the theme, but when it's over, there's really no need to stay in any of the new zones.

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

It seems like you're talking about 2.0 and changes made from 1.0. All good points/insights where 1.0 is concerned, but I'm not referring to 1.0 at all in my post. 1.0's pretty much a non-factor at this point.

I'm referring to the environment design in 3.0, and how it differs and is - in my opinion - a downgrade from that of 2.0's areas.

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I think that's just to fit the theme of the expansion. Its meant to look desalt and uninhabited because there's pretty much a war going on with people and dragons.

Omg if Flying had a limit then the forums would explode. Be careful what you wish for.

The Forums cried about boring small 2.0 zones, so we got the expanse of 3.0.
The Forums ask for flying to be taken away so 4.0 might skip it altogether.

I appreciate the fact that SE somewhat reads the forums, but man, as a collective, we players really should be careful with what we ask for. The grass is not greener on the other side with out some sort of compromise.

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Originally Posted by TheUltimate3

Wait, I'm confused.

Through most of 2.0 people have been complaining that the 2.0 zones were small and cluttered, losing the grand feel that they once had.

Now in 3.0 people are complaining that the 3.0 zones are to large but are uninteresting because of flight?

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Yup, Rose-colored glasses effect in action.

Thing is,by introducing flight,, Squareenix sacrificed they quality of the maps. We won't get back those beautifull maps we had before. Look at the live letter that shows the new area, it's another low designed map full of nothing. Just smalls isles here and there.

Wait, I'm confused.

Through most of 2.0 people have been complaining that the 2.0 zones were small and cluttered, losing the grand feel that they once had.

Now in 3.0 people are complaining that the 3.0 zones are to large but are uninteresting because of flight?

Yoshida has to ignore this...I would hate for FFXIV 4.0 to go back to smaller areas. The reason you don't feel emotion with the new areas is because you're not on the ground. "I'm a down to earth kind of person" applies here. When people are flying in the clouds they notice nothing.

When you're down to earth you notice everything.
I would like Yoshida to in one patch introduce lightning weather to all HW maps where no one can fly to show people the difference.

Honestly I love the new areas...and how big they are.

I don't really notice much texture tearing, not anything major anyway. Maybe that's because my computer is utter shit but still runs this beautiful game anyway.

Offtopic anyone notice those strange holes in the hinterlands, in the west? Not a texture thing, they are definitely supposed to be there....

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Originally Posted by TheUltimate3

Wait, I'm confused.

Through most of 2.0 people have been complaining that the 2.0 zones were small and cluttered, losing the grand feel that they once had.

Now in 3.0 people are complaining that the 3.0 zones are to large but are uninteresting because of flight?

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Not everyone was unhappy about zone size in 2.0. I'll always take quality over quantity.

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Originally Posted by TheUltimate3

Wait, I'm confused.

Through most of 2.0 people have been complaining that the 2.0 zones were small and cluttered, losing the grand feel that they once had.

Now in 3.0 people are complaining that the 3.0 zones are to large but are uninteresting because of flight?

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You make it sounds like it's the exact same group of people flip-flopping. Only a vocal minority complained about the "corridor design." Chances are it's an entirely different group being vocal now. They can't please everyone.

The only comfy place I would afk in is the hunters lodge in the hinterlands.

Need more towns in the future.