Just before Tokyo Game Show, one shred of sanity. [Raiding topic]

Disclaimer, each statement should be treated as it's own individual argument. I ask you to consider if you agree or disagree to merely focus on the individual statement and reply to that, rather then the sum of the greater whole and without much further ado...

I'm an average raider, I can usually get in about 10 weeks of kills on the final turn of T5, T9, and T13 before it goes casual and new raid content was introduced. So it ended up taking me 4.5 months to get my first clear under the old Coil System.

Now while I appreciate that Square Enix is elevating the raid content to try and make it's players better at playing their classes and understanding mechanics to make it on par to how World of Warcraft was during Vanilla I feel that there is a slight oversight in the design.

Firstly, and I know this has been said but the reason that this unbreakable hard grind of content worked in World of Warcraft was that in the scope of killing the final boss of a raid there was over a dozen bosses to learn, fight, and take time to fight each week in some cases you would also pick and choose and there was both gear and progression there.

This attempt to make the game harder, but at the same time keeping a 4 boss scheme isn't viable to the majority of players. And while I appreciate that you made Alexander for casual players, I do enjoy the challenge that savage presents but I think you need to design the system so that it finds a balanced design scheme, that allows a player to progress within the given cycle of the content patch you have designed.

So to extrapolate that, it means that if the final piece of A4S is a chest/sword, and I expect to have it then I need to have a total of 8 weeks (I.E. based off the token system) to get 1 piece, which also means that based on the previous cycle I would need to defeat A4S the second week after the new 24 man raid comes out.

Reality: I have beaten A2S and I am progressing on A3S now, I suspect it will be another 5 weeks pushing into the 3.1 Patch cycle when my group successfully beats it. I will be able to possibly have A4S down before the new content patch but I certainly won't be able to farm the necessary materials for what I feel I want.

Which brings us to the real problem of this design, and it is something which I expect Square Enix intends to continue with. 5 months. You're only giving us 5 months to progress through content that is harder when we had 6 months previously. The extra gear from Alexander Normal is not a head start, because as we discovered on A1S and A2S we beat the floors after we got a few pieces of gear from the esoteric equipment to increase our ability to heal, dps, and take damage.

So what caused this entire situation to come into being? It was essentially an artificial design in the raiding system that slowed gear progression, others may not realize it but the secret to beating the turns lies in the equipment progression designed so that when you're in a full set of 210, then the content becomes within the scope of defeating it. As was demonstrated when the world first groups finally downed it and subsequently posted up that they had finished their best in slot 210 set almost shortly after that happened.

So lets talk solutions. First. I don't think 3.0 is salvagable, I think that many of the current raiders have reached their wits end and are beginning to just want A4S down so they can relax and I think that stress is going to start causing groups to break up, servers to bicker and most people are going to do what humanity does worst and blame someone else. It's their fault, and because of that it's going to hurt the FFXIV community. 3.1 and 3.2 are important, they're the lifesblood of this MMO.

Players will stay for the story and return for content patches, and I understand that the current business model is to make the content so hard that people stay subscribed longer. But I think that making the content tedious, grindy, and slowing progression artificially with reduced gear isn't the solution.

So 3.1's coming likely end of September and beginning of October, they will likely introduce the accessory upgrades for 4 weeks pushing into November, followed by the left side upgrades for another 4 weeks alongside the relic which we'll probably see in 3.15. (I.E. weekly World of Darkness quest with 1 item upgrade)

This is the reality of what is essentially making the player base 'get good' so that they have to learn their class and they have to push the envelop of their abilities and their groups. But I think that the inherent stress of this design is going to cause your players to burn out and quit faster then it will improve the current design.

While I recognize these are largely circumstantial observations and there is a lot of speculation I hope that you take into consideration what I've written here. You can't make us chase after the carrot and in the end of the content patch only give us the top part you cut off. Players need to be able to accumulate the necessary completion goals that are able to be completed in a given time frame that is acceptable without pushing into the next content patch to get what they want accomplished. I'd rather focus on next patch's content when it comes out without being forced to continue doing the last patch's content unless it's to help someone new defeat it.

I am a filthy casual, proud of downing A4 normal and no plan of touching savage mode.

Maybe in the minority, but quit hardcore endgame long ago due to stress, statics drama, uninterrupted raid time etc

Freedom is a virtuous gift.

But yes, not enough time to finish A4S because not all players reached lvl60 at start of HW among other reasons.

As someone who has been bashing his head against A4S for a few weeks now and pretty much feels like quitting until 3.1:

The difficulty jump between A2S and A3S is completely ridiculous. There needed to be at least two more bosses of gradually increasing difficulty in between them. Recycle models and mechanics if you have to, but the 4 boss structure should have died with Coil. Also, extreme primals should probably be a bit stronger now that we have Alexander Normal modes - the game is starving for medium-difficulty content. Alex normal is way too easy, primals are irrelevant because of tomestones.

I'm not entirely sure what you are complaining about. Are you upset about it taking too long to get gear from Savage, about Savage being to hard for the average raider, or the fact that the opened Savage after Normal mode?
I know SE rolled out content in waves so the average player wouldn't feel rushed to lvl 60 and you shouldn't expect to clear content immediately or too be geared just as fast.

Personally, I don't find the mechanics of savage hard. They're tedious if anything.
As to what Brannigan said, I don't think the difficulty jump between A2 and A3 was a surprise. I honestly expected it. Usually the first 2 bosses are a test to see if you can handle the raid. Much like Faust was a dps check.

It's not a complex idea, it's merely the poor man's strategy. The world first groups have assets and fully crafted components to back them up. I simply have to depend on gear progression to take me the whole way there. With the current model of 5 months to clear a 4 floor raid it's not logistically possible to satisfy what I deem a period of time to complete all 4 turns to level of completion that doesn't make me want to stop raiding entirely. Effort = Reward. But when the effort exceeds what is logical it turns players against each other and in general disrupts the balance of the community at least in western servers. This is my observation, and while it may not negatively impact my gameplay save for having to go back and farm duty finder A4S come December/January when 2nd Alexander comes out, I do not feel the current model is sustainable in regard to player retention.

People will quit if raids are too easy and beat too early, but there comes a point where the raid is too hard that it cannot be beaten in a timely manner and this makes people quit sooner and worse brings out the worst in communities. Not asking to be cleared, but within a 5 month period you should theoretically be able to down the content a sufficient minimum number of times to get at least 8 tokens to buy a chest/weapon one time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brannigan

As someone who has been bashing his head against A4S for a few weeks now and pretty much feels like quitting until 3.1.

---

Ravana weapons had their place because Alex normal had no weapons. You got those from Ravana.

Bismarck weapons are glamour items.

That said, there needs to be a middle ground. Right now there isn't one. Their idea of "midcore" raid content is 24 player raids. The hell is the point of having a static if you're not a hardcore, head against wall repeated raider when you have to use DF to find 16 other people to do a raid?

most of the challenge in DF raids is getting the cats you've never met before herded and not trolling.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Edgedy

Reality: I have beaten A2S and I am progressing on A3S now, I suspect it will be another 5 weeks pushing into the 3.1 Patch cycle when my group successfully beats it. I will be able to possibly have A4S down before the new content patch but I certainly won't be able to farm the necessary materials for what I feel I want.

So 3.1's coming likely end of September and beginning of October, they will likely introduce the accessory upgrades for 4 weeks pushing into November, followed by the left side upgrades for another 4 weeks alongside the relic which we'll probably see in 3.15. (I.E. weekly World of Darkness quest with 1 item upgrade)

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Edgedy

Not asking to be cleared, but within a 5 month period you should theoretically be able to down the content a sufficient minimum number of times to get at least 8 tokens to buy a chest/weapon one time.

---

You have enough time, you and your static need to just be better. You had literally the same chance as the world 1sts. My static will hopefully clear A3 tonight, if not then the next time we're in. Gives us plenty of time to work on A4S to get our clear based on the timeline you presented.

Are your tanks running crafted right side?
Did all your static members cap ESO every week?

If either of these are no, then you have not put your all into the raid. Even if the answers are yes, you still have not. I feel the savage difficulty is justified, and I enjoy that you can immediately tell where you need to improve during the fights.

I know I don't have the dedication or the patience for the hardest of the hardcore content. I'm not a masochist. I'm a filthy casual and I plan to stay that way forever.

That's why I know Savage mode wasn't put in this game for me. Grats to Elysium, they deserve it for all the hard work they put in. But that's not my cup of tea.

Honestly, the only reason to do Savage is to get gear to do more Savage. Unlike Coil, where there was a story hidden behind it. Alexander Normal is just the right difficulty level for a pickup group to need 8 people who know what they're doing, but not 8 people in max gear with perfect rotations, food, potions, and a separate Teamspeak server for voice chat.

That's part of the issue, I'm not able to afford to pay for the pentameld accessories so I'm more dependent on the gear progression through normal means. Currently item level 200, without any crafted accessories as a tank and I know it's a legitimate statement that I have to do that but it's currently not viable for me to do it. And I also agree I see where our raid team can improve, but at the same time I don't think I can clear A4S and farm it 8 times before 3.2 comes out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Edgedy

That's part of the issue, I'm not able to afford to pay for the pentameld accessories so I'm more dependent on the gear progression through normal means. Currently item level 200, without any crafted accessories as a tank and I know it's a legitimate statement that I have to do that but it's currently not viable for me to do it. And I also agree I see where our raid team can improve, but at the same time I don't think I can clear A4S and farm it 8 times before 3.2 comes out.

---

Pretty sure that the raid teams who are already beating this content aren't asking their static members to gear in a vacuum. There was an interview with someone from Elysium in Playboy magazine (I laughed a little, I admit) explaining that they built up a huge bank of gil ahead of time so each of the raid teams would be able to kit out with the best of the best - and then it turned out for AS3 it wasn't enough, you needed AS1-2 gear to meet the DPS checks.

Well 3.1 being in November sort of alleviates my timeline, but now I need to get A3S down so I can upgrade left side.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nadirah

Ravana weapons had their place because Alex normal had no weapons. You got those from Ravana.

Bismarck weapons are glamour items.

That said, there needs to be a middle ground. Right now there isn't one. Their idea of "midcore" raid content is 24 player raids. The hell is the point of having a static if you're not a hardcore, head against wall repeated raider when you have to use DF to find 16 other people to do a raid?

most of the challenge in DF raids is getting the cats you've never met before herded and not trolling.

---

To be fair, the new airship content should offer that "midcore" content people are looking for.

Not so much, it's 24 man groups with a lucky gold drop per group. So 1 level 210 item drops with random stats, not going to be very easy to win that piece.