Tanks "Hold the Line"

I've been playing Seal Rock for a bit and I've always liked tanking, which in PvP for me is healer. But for real tanks, it sort of "seems" the extra defense they get don't really benefit the team and of course most would go full strength and basically become an okay DPS with a little bit more health and defense. So maybe this as a new PvP ability

Hold the Line
Create a 10 yalm length barrier in front of you which can't be crossed. Reduce knock back affect distance by half. Movement slowed.
Instant
Recast: 210s
Duration: 6s, 8s, 10s, on upgrades

You're still targetable and can be killed, but now its possible to hold a choke point (which there are a lot of in Seal Rock) for at least the time this is up and of course spam heals as now you are everyones target. Might add a little more strategy to PvP gameplay.

Initially when I played a tank class in Seal Rock (I hand't leveled a healer yet), there were many times I wished I could stop the people running by me towards the healers and the node.

Edit:
Added movement slowed.

Edit:
Reduce duration and increased cooldown.

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Originally Posted by Kaizer

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No. Tanks are strong enough as it is, especially the warriors. Paladins have plenty of disruptive abilities and glory slash to kick people off of those bottleneck areas anyway. Dork Knights also have plenty of damage that they can put out and being more durable on top of that.

Their defense is already inherent and without tank stance, their burst numbers are on par of that of actual dps classes on top of their better survivabiliy.

unless you make this a seal rock only skill, thats pretty dumb:
* pvp should always be balanced around competitive formats and not the casual cess pit of frontlines
* needlessly buffing tanks for pretty much no reason
* would be hideously overpowered in wolves den, the center of competitive format
* gigantic power creep on upgrades

even if you make this a seal rock only skill, its pretty dumb:
* creating skill disparity across modes
* needlessly buffing tanks for pretty much no reason
* gigantic power creep on upgrades
* people will complain even more when their gimmicky new skill is vulnerable to be stripped by summoners, paladins, monks and astrologians

tanks are not an "okay dps", they are gigantic bruisers with great damage, utility and burst

There is not enough trinity'ness in terms of the job types in PvP. It really is just, do more DPS and Heal. Also, how big of a "buff" is it really? It stop people through, yes, for 10 seconds? at most? But now they basically have all player "aggro" (technically). How long can a tank last being fully targeted by a full team? I think it adds a pretty nice dynamic to the game aside from damage. Now you have to push through a "tank".

With this, some tanks might actually benefit from getting VIT instead of STR, etc. Warriors are an outlier, everyone knows that.

The defense already has the advantage in Seal Rock. This would be broken as hell, but still a fun idea nonetheless. Like others said though, you're pretty wrong about the damage potential of tanks.

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Originally Posted by Kaizer

There is not enough trinity'ness in terms of the job types in PvP. It really is just, do more DPS and Heal. Also, how big of a "buff" is it really? It stop people through, yes, for 10 seconds? at most? But now they basically have all player "aggro" (technically). How long can a tank last being fully targeted by a full team? I think it adds a pretty nice dynamic to the game aside from damage. Now you have to push through a "tank".

With this, some tanks might actually benefit from getting VIT instead of STR, etc. Warriors are an outlier, everyone knows that.

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Because that methodology does not work in a PvP setting. There's no enforced party compositions for the holy trinity setting to take place, and there's no natural need for a "tank" in a player versus player environment. You're just giving your perspective of what you want without refuting the problems that come with your implementation.,

I've played Frontlines and WD with WAR and PLD. I can see the burst of Warriors for sure, PLD not so much, no experience on DRK. Again, "LOLWAR Come at me bro."

Actually, right, with the numbers I originally gave it is actually quite a strong CC. Reducing.

Again, even with the better version of duration and cooldown, its still something that is designed as a gimmick for sieze and would be overpowered in wolves den

Tanks already bring a lot of unique tankiness to the table. Take paladin for example...

1. VIT party bonus for the entire group
2. Testudo = 25% damage reduction for the group for 20 seconds
3. Tank LB = 50% damage reduction for group for 10 seconds
4. Cover = take all physical damage on one target
5. Flash to aoe blind enemies to reduce incoming damage
6. 4s stun to keep your target locked down while your group kills them or keep someone from wrecking your healer/caster

These are all moves that reduce incoming damage to the group. The only way to survive an onslaught of caster LB's or a strong push from another alliance is to have a tank who properly uses group cooldowns (testudo, tank LB, etc..). Having a tank is already a huge boon to the party.

Tank defensive cooldowns are also extremely useful. As 2 GC's clash, as a Paladin I'm always leading the charge and always get targeted first. You better believe I pop all my defensive cooldowns and they keep me alive while my party offers support.

In wolves den, I'll agree the defensive cooldowns are far less useful as you rarely get targeted and you no longer have your own tank LB, but all of your other moves are extremely good and timing is much more important there.

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Originally Posted by Kaizer

I've played Frontlines and WD with WAR and PLD. I can see the burst of Warriors for sure, PLD not so much, no experience on DRK.

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Drk's Dark Arts burst combo is comparable to WAR's Fell Cleave combo. War's are still king of the hill for dmg, but, at maximum burst (Dark Arts up for both Carve and Spit as well as Soul Eater along with the off CD moves like plunge and low blow) I'm pretty sure Drk actually surpasses WAR in terms of overall burst dmg. I can't remember what the actual numbers work out to though. Downside is they are much squishier at baseline than War and Pld.

I'm getting the feeling that you're thinking about the Tank's role in PvP wrong. I don't blame you. When I first attempted PvP, I thought my class was useless. PvE aggro mechanics had trained me to think of tanking in one way and one way only, and without an aggro bar I thought that I was suddenly useless except to stun lock players for a measly 4 seconds. You learn to think differently the more you play.

In seize, Tanks basically run interference for the rest of the team. This can be done a number of different ways, but it boils down to one of two. You're either a big distraction, or you're the bait and lure. The bait and lure tactic is by far the most commonly employed (as the distraction method is usually a last ditch effort to save the team by sacrificing yourself. It sucks for you, but it's better to cost the team 5pts than 10+pts). Direct Defense is almost impossible and is wildly impractical in a PvP setting. The only tank even capable of running effective direct defense is a PLD (with Testudo and cover), and even then the defense is limited to a few team mates and only for a short time with a really long cooldown to work with. It's great for those hardcore charges that need some buffing, but otherwise it's not an effective strategy for the vast majority of the match. If you're still trying to run a tank in PvP by doing direct defense than you should consider rethinking your role, and practicing your dip and dives. You will be infinitely more useful to both the Dps and healers.

Would like to add that while it may be a measly 4 seconds stun to you, more often than not it can spell the doom of a DPS/healer especially when the fight begins to turn sour.

Those 4 seconds feel like an eternity to us!

But back to the topic. I too feel it's a little too powerful given the fact that a single tank, who already can change the tide of battle when played well, is given a skill that affects a multitude of players so drastically.

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Originally Posted by Aphel

Would like to add that while it may be a measly 4 seconds stun to you, more often than not it can spell the doom of a DPS/healer especially when the fight begins to turn sour.

Those 4 seconds feel like an eternity to us!

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I am fully aware lol. That measly 4 seconds can be utterly devastating, especially if there's one or two Dps following the tank and pouncing on whatever he stuns (hint hint, to those dps out there who let our tank stuns go to waste. Shame on you. It's practically a free kill.)

What I meant, though, is that, from a tank's perspective, if you're playing as though stunning and trying to defend the healers is your only job in PvP then you seem utterly dull and comparatively insignificant. Most other classes have a stun, for one, so as far as Tanks go that's nothing special (unless you're a Pld and can stun lock for a slightly longer duration), and, between stuns and desperately trying to use your CD's to protect healers (which, again, is really only a Pld thing), you don't really feel like you're doing much compared to your other teammates, and, honestly, you're not lol. If that was all there was to PvP tanking, then tank classes would really not be contributing very much to the team.

Thankfully, this is not all there is to tanking in PvP. It's a much more complicated role than PvE brainwashing makes us all think it will be. Tanks just gotta expand their minds a bit, and rethink how they can be helping the team.

That is how I played my tank (not healer which I usually) in PvP, the best way to benefit the team. Bait, lure, annoy, etc. That moving thing with the large HP (somewhat) that does just enough dmg to be annoying but not really threatening (unless WAR). I guess what I'm trying to create is a player induced aggro. Something that says, hay, we have to kill this guy right now or we can't achieve so and so goal.

That applies to any class being played well anyway

a good paladin is a massive threat the same way a good drk is a massive threat the same way a good war is a massive threat

just because you dont see good tanks in frontlines (which you generally wont, because its frontlines) doesn't warrant adding a gimmicky move that would be completely broken in competitive format

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Originally Posted by Kaizer

That moving thing with the large HP (somewhat) that does just enough dmg to be annoying but not really threatening (unless WAR). I guess what I'm trying to create is a player induced aggro. Something that says, hay, we have to kill this guy right now or we can't achieve so and so goal.

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I have no idea what you mean by this.

I play as both Drk and Pld in frontlines and I definitely do enough dmg to be more than just "annoying." Pld's don't have the same kind of burst as Drks and Wars, but their Royal authority combo has a consistently higher dmg output than most average tank attacks (when not in shield oath), and can only be beaten by dmg boosting skills of War and Drk (like Dark arts), and their stun lock+PvP skills pretty much make them hold the line, anyway. Pld's are the monstrous tip of the spear in PvP. Anything they touch is potentially dead if their Dps are awake, and a lot of people avoid fighting them because their baseline def makes them absurdly difficult to kill.

Drks have an incredible dmg burst, and, assuming I have an even half decent healer on my team that's nearby, I'm usually rocking battle highs/fevers by the end of a good match. So, most of the time, my sheer dmg output as Drk is forcing the enemy to say "hey, we have to kill this guy right now or we can't achieve so and so goal."

I'm not in a match to be annoying, I'm in a match to murder some folks. If you're not getting kills as a tank, or at the very least being instrumental in things dying by stunning and putting enemies in a position to die easy, then you're not doing your job.

I actually love playing a tank I Seal Rock because we can hold a node pretty damn well. a Warrior and I (DRK) held a node against six dps by popping every CD we had and LBing long enough for the match to end. Eventually they would have taken it, but even at that point it was at about 20, maybe 30 percent. Felt great. Or just holding it long enough fro some other DPS to show up and balance the fight.

The only thing I want for tanks is Provoke to taunt an enemy for 2-4 seconds. Not stun/bind or force auto attacks only. Just that they can only use targeted attacks on you for the time. I don't care if they can aoe or run, it would add a ton of control for tanks and add to our already dominating presence.

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Originally Posted by Rhaja

The only thing I want for tanks is Provoke to taunt an enemy for 2-4 seconds. Not stun/bind or force auto attacks only. Just that they can only use targeted attacks on you for the time. I don't care if they can aoe or run, it would add a ton of control for tanks and add to our already dominating presence.

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I actually wonder how the targeting works in some cases. I know that on PC it doesn't really matter, because it's point and click, but on Ps4 I've noticed that Auto targeting with X often targets tanks or pets before dps or healers.

I've had times where I'm standing directly in front of a squishy target, dps or healer. They're not two feet ahead of me, but auto targeting got snagged on the tank that was almost behind me and more than 10 meters away. The same thing happens in big groups. You've got a rush of enemies ahead of you. You're clearly looking right at the ninja, but, somehow, when you hit X you get target lock on a War or Egi. It could just be my imagination, but it happens often enough that I wonder if it was an intentional tweak they made to the console version of the game to simulate "aggro" for tank classes. It's not really a big deal though, since at most it slows you down for a couple of seconds while you cycle targets.

I'd actually like to see enmity factor into PvP...

When you build enmity on a target, they deal more damage to you.
However, they deal less damage to everyone else.
Have some Garuda style tethers to display this; Green tether = who has built enmity on you, Red tether = who you've built enmity on.

Would require a lot of balancing, but I think it could be an interesting mechanic. You see a Red tether between an enemy and your healer, you Provoke that enemy or Smoke Screen your healer. Shadewalker turns into a "If you attack me I deal more damage to you, but if I attack you, you deal less to me because my enmity is going to my teammate" skill. Could also see it as a stealth buff to healers; Anyone who focuses you is going to allow you to deal more damage to them, meanwhile your tanks will be effectively giving you a defense boost since your tanks should have enmity, meaning the enemies deal less damage to you. My only issue would be how much of a cluster f*ck all those tethers would be in Frontlines...

Alternatively, we could have a "Frenzy" status that forces you on a target for a short duration. Enmity based skills build up to that and after it wears off enmity is reset. Provoke then forces your target on you for a few seconds, Flash/etc. could temporarily force a group to focus you. Smoke Screen can keep your ally from going Frenzied, and Shadewalker can make your target run after someone else to give you the edge. All the healers have a reduce enmity skill that can keep them from getting the effect, and ranged have Quelling Strikes. Just give it a similar duration/resistance rate to Bind/Stun, let people Purify it if they wish, and depending on how long it takes to build up enmity to Frenzy someone, it could be interesting.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Their defense is already inherent and without tank stance, their burst numbers are on par of that of actual dps classes on top of their better survivabiliy.

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Originally Posted by Atreus

The defense already has the advantage in Seal Rock.

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Actually...
It's little known and counter-intuitive, but defense doesn't do jack in PvP.

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Originally Posted by Grekumah

For both Frontline and the Wolves’ Den, physical defense and magical defense are nullified, and battle balance was adjusted based on this. Due to this, Foresight, Protect, and other actions that boost your defense will not have an effect during battle.

I will be compiling your feedback and forwarding it to the devs regarding having this information appear in-game.

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I only learned about this a couple days ago, actually. Someone in PvP told me Protect didn't do anything, so I looked into it and found that.

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Originally Posted by CGMidlander

Actually...
It's little known and counter-intuitive, but defense doesn't do jack in PvP.

I only learned about this a couple days ago, actually. Someone in PvP told me Protect didn't do anything, so I looked into it and found that.

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you are confusing Def and MDef with job resistances, here is a picture for your convenience (added in patch 2.4)

http://i.imgur.com/kOU5X8S.png

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Originally Posted by CeveArthu

you are confusing Def and MDef with job resistances, here is a picture for your convenience (added in patch 2.4)

http://i.imgur.com/kOU5X8S.png

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Maybe I should be more clear.
The defense stat doesn't do anything. (So stuff that augments it, like Foresight and Protect, don't do anything)

The vulnerability thing is different from what I was getting at.

I'm aware what you are getting at, i'm more than aware things that increase def and mdef, i literally just told you that in my previous post

riceisnice was referring to the vulnerability stat, not the defence stat that you mistook her for thinking of

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Originally Posted by CeveArthu

I'm aware what you are getting at, i'm more than aware things that increase def and mdef, i literally just told you that in my previous post

riceisnice was referring to the vulnerability stat, not the defence stat that you mistook her for thinking of

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My bad then.