This is literally the worst PVP I've ever seen in an MMO...

It is just so bad. Frontlines are the biggest cluster-f I've ever been in. Just copy WoW's formula if you can't do better SE. This game mode feels like a pvp-simulator game.

#ihatewowsodontgocrazy

#whywasballistabetterthanthis

Yeah, I agree 100%. Who thought 3 sided PvP was a good idea honestly? Can't work it out, then change it to 2 sides dammit. They've shown time and time again that they can't create 3 team frontline that isn't one giant mess, with some classes being far too strong from their own good cough Summoners hiding behind their team cough, poorly thought out map/objective design (even Seal Rock is RNG dependant, if the teams are on absolutely equal footing, spawning a node near one's team will give them an advantage, at least temporarily), and far more issues that are plaguing PvP.

The huge grind it is to hit rank 50, 200 wins or 600 loses (from what I read on the wiki)? Why is there such a large disparity in exp? Time used is time used, award extra seals, but losing is a huge demotivation now. Not to mention the rewards, forcing them to be wins when there's 3 teams! In PvP, it's either you dedicate hundreds of hours to it, or nothing. I don't find it very fun anymore, y'know what'll probably be fun? The new Wolfs' Den in 3.1 if they don't mess it up too, not this giant mess. Not to mention the lack of variety! One map at 60. Why couldn't they bring up the other 2 to level 60 too?

Also, why does my LB cancel out if someone runs up a hill?... There are so many hills in Seal Rock that's it's incredibly annoying, while a cometeor can blow me up in half a second.

/endrant

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Originally Posted by TheJarvisMan

It is just so bad. Frontlines are the biggest cluster-f I've ever been in. Just copy WoW's formula if you can't do better SE. This game mode feels like a pvp-simulator game.

#ihatewowsodontgocrazy

#whywasballistabetterthanthis

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Except they acknowledge that PvP is a mini-game on this MMORPG.

If you're playing this game strictly for PvP... well...

I enjoy it. :(

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Originally Posted by Roegadyn_Bear

Except they acknowledge that PvP is a mini-game on this MMORPG.

If you're playing this game strictly for PvP... well...

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I mean, I'm not. Who is? If anyone is then please help them.

PVP in this game is a fun little distraction to the main game which is the PVE. That's why PVP offers gear that is only useful in PVP, and not really useful at all in the main game, and that's the way it should be.

I do agree that 72-man Seal Rock feels a little too chaotic and subject to RNG sometimes; if you've ever gotten into a 24-man Seal Rock, the difference is like night and day. I really wish they would split Seal Rock queue into 24-man and 72-man, but that might create even more queue time problems for overpopulated GCs (like Maelstrom on Primal data center)

If you want MMO PVP go play GW2 or Wildstar (yes, I actually said something nice about Wildstar.)

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Originally Posted by Colorful

Yeah, I agree 100%. Who thought 3 sided PvP was a good idea honestly? Can't work it out, then change it to 2 sides dammit. They've shown time and time again that they can't create 3 team frontline that isn't one giant mess, with some classes being far too strong from their own good cough Summoners hiding behind their team cough, poorly thought out map/objective design (even Seal Rock is RNG dependant, if the teams are on absolutely equal footing, spawning a node near one's team will give them an advantage, at least temporarily), and far more issues that are plaguing PvP.

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I'd assume the 3 sided pvp is heavily influenced from DAoC, which Yoshi-P himself has stated was one of his all time favorite MMO's. Difference is that DAoC was designed from the ground up with 3 factioned pvp in mind, and it is still lauded to this day as one of best MMO PvP systems.

However, what FFXIV has, is a pale immitation, although in the end it doesn't really bother me what kind of pvp they have, since I most likely won't touch it. Got burned out on pvp years ago.

I honestly enjoy it. And I honestly don't think it's all about RNG (Seal Rock). It's knowing what to do at the right time. What team to attack, what team to ignore. When to turtle on your nodes, and when to ignore nodes and go slaughter the team in first.

It is a cluster-, and it can be very difficult to lead/steer an entire alliance to victory against 2 more alliances. But it can also be very rewarding :)

I'm just sad that I don't have Cleric Stance as a healer. I understand my main role is to heal, but I don't like that I need constant babysitting 'cause I can barely defend myself. I remember SCH used to be really OP because of Lustrate was unaffected by Cleric Stance, but Lustrate doesn't work the same way anymore, and Holy was nerfed as well. I don't see why healers can't have Cleric Stance back. :\

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Originally Posted by Roegadyn_Bear

Except they acknowledge that PvP is a mini-game on this MMORPG.

If you're playing this game strictly for PvP... well...

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For a mini-game its got one hell of a grind. My biggest issue is the lack of balancing. I nearly rage when I see a full party of smn/sch coming at us. Maybe it will balance out when Ishgard's Temple Knights becomes a thing and it even out the playing field.

Go back to WoW, byyyyyye!

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Originally Posted by Selli

I'm just sad that I don't have Cleric Stance as a healer. I understand my main role is to heal, but I don't like that I need constant babysitting 'cause I can barely defend myself. I remember SCH used to be really OP because of Lustrate was unaffected by Cleric Stance, but Lustrate doesn't work the same way anymore, and Holy was nerfed as well. I don't see why healers can't have Cleric Stance back. :\

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That's because healers with Cleric's Stance in PvP were very OP and was abused back in Frontlines pre-slaughter. Back then Medica 2 was stackable and just imagine being able to switch to dps mode at a whim?

A healer is hard enough to kill as is, just imagine of said healer can switch to clerics stance.

PvP is clearly not their specialty as can be seen with job disparities within PvP

It's really disadvantage for healer (Unless you're too lazy to deal with enemies).

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Originally Posted by myahele

PvP is clearly not their specialty as can be seen with job disparities within PvP

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Eh, class balance doesn't feel like the biggest issue in PVP right now honestly. The #1 fix they could make to PVP right now would be to drop GC restrictions so queue times are normalized. I think the scaling throws some classes out of whack, because in 72-man, SMN can hide in a crowd and DoT/Deathflare the shit out of people without consequence. In 24-man they're significantly more vulnerable and Deathflare isn't as big a deal because healers can usually heal through it no sweat. In fact, healers actually still kind of feel OP in 24-man.

I love PvP in this game and am max rank with a lot of pvp achieves. Guess it is not for everyone?

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Originally Posted by adn

That's why PVP offers gear that is only useful in PVP, and not really useful at all in the main game, and that's the way it should be.

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*cough* Fastest way of gearing Law and hitting your Esoteric cap each week *cough*

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Originally Posted by Etiken

Go back to WoW, byyyyyye!

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In otherwords trying to do anything WoW does is bad including aiming for PvP balance. Is that your argument?

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Originally Posted by Amberyl

*cough* Fastest way of gearing Law and hitting your Esoteric cap each week *cough*

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I think he meant the PvP gear you could acquire with the PvP currency, though I agree that it's highly efficient to spam if you have short queue times for PvE gear.

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Originally Posted by Amberyl

*cough* Fastest way of gearing Law and hitting your Esoteric cap each week *cough*

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Oh trust me, I'm very well aware. I meant basically the high-end PVP rewards though. However, as for law/eso gearing, that can vary a little depending on GC... Maelstrom on Primal gets some nasty 30minute queues even during primetime, but if you're Flames you get 5min queues nearly all the time lol.

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Originally Posted by Xanikk999

In otherwords trying to do anything WoW does is bad including aiming for PvP balance. Is that your argument?

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I use WoW PvP as an example of how it could always be worse. Can't every spec burst any other spec from 100-0 in 5 seconds or less right now?

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Originally Posted by Daralii

I use WoW PvP as an example of how it could always be worse. Can't every spec burst any other spec from 100-0 in 5 seconds or less right now?

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I don't normally come to WoW's defense but that's a massive exaggeration. The issue you're describing has appeared in WoW's PVP in the past but that is not the issue currently plaguing it. The key issue with WoD's PVP has been that melee classes basically retained all of their damage and mobility while almost every caster was made into a turret. Which means that right now melee are comically overpowered (rogues, feral druids, etc)

That, and Alliance (meaning: Human and NE) racials were buffed to the point where if you want to play PVP competitively there is literally no point in playing any other race, so basically 90% of the PVP population has gravitated to the Alliance.

I enjoy it. A lot more then when it 1st came out. Honestly This is the 1st PVP in a MMO I've liked.

Ya RNG can turn the ties. But not always.

I enjoy this PvP way more than I did WoWs. WoWs was awful.

Generally MMOs aren't a very good place to go for stimulating PvP content, though.

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Originally Posted by adn

I don't normally come to WoW's defense but that's a massive exaggeration. The issue you're describing has appeared in WoW's PVP in the past but that is not the issue currently plaguing it. The key issue with WoD's PVP has been that melee classes basically retained all of their damage and mobility while almost every caster was made into a turret. Which means that right now melee are comically overpowered (rogues, feral druids, etc)

That, and Alliance (meaning: Human and NE) racials were buffed to the point where if you want to play PVP competitively there is literally no point in playing any other race, so basically 90% of the PVP population has gravitated to the Alliance.

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I was vaguely remembering this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgrTb6mamws

Unsubbed late in 5.4, so I can't say I've experienced it firsthand.

I really like Frontlines. There's not too many people to make it messy, and three teams makes the game interesting; it stops strategies like turtleing and doesn't allow one team to just dominate over the others.

I do think PvP could use a lot of work however. There's very few PvP rewards, few maps, only a single thing worth doing at level 60, and pretty dull progression system.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

I was vaguely remembering this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgrTb6mamws

Unsubbed late in 5.4, so I can't say I've experienced it firsthand.

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Oh lordy, I stand corrected. I had not seen that. And here I was thinking it couldn't possibly get any worse since 6.0.

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Originally Posted by Colorful

Yeah, I agree 100%. Who thought 3 sided PvP was a good idea honestly? Can't work it out, then change it to 2 sides dammit.

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You know the Wolves Den could use more love.

You're on Adders that's why, lol!

I have 3 pieces of i180 PvP gear, can't use it because i'm only rank 25...

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Originally Posted by Amberyl

*cough* Fastest way of gearing Law and hitting your Esoteric cap each week *cough*

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PvP was a lot more fun when it didn't have people just half-assing for tomestone rewards.
Yeah the queues took three days or so to even finish, but at least you had people really wanting to play.

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Originally Posted by Amberyl

*cough* Fastest way of gearing Law and hitting your Esoteric cap each week *cough*

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Not for a tank. I can queue Expert Roulette. Instant pop no matter what time of day. 15-20 min runs at 40 eso each. Meanwhile the PVP queues, even during primetime, are 10-20 mins just to get in there, and only reward 20 eso.

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Originally Posted by Akuryu

Not for a tank. I can queue Expert Roulette. Instant pop no matter what time of day. 15-20 min runs at 40 eso each. Meanwhile the PVP queues, even during primetime, are 10-20 mins just to get in there, and only reward 20 eso.

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Frontline roulette gives another 20, though. Just gotta win the coin flip.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

I was vaguely remembering this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgrTb6mamws

Unsubbed late in 5.4, so I can't say I've experienced it firsthand.

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Wow, that holy paladin damage is appalling.

I gotta say though, this game has by far the best "WoW-style" PvP I've ever played, if only for the fact of gear syncing. Having your face repeated stomped in because you don't have the correct gear is awful. Especially considering in most MMOs, the only way to get said PvP gear is to be a massive parasite on your team and hope to get carried enough.

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Originally Posted by Amberyl

*cough* Fastest way of gearing Law and hitting your Esoteric cap each week *cough*

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No, it really isn't. The queues are so long that you'd waste more time sitting around than actually earning tomes.

People should see PvP for what it is. A diversion. It's not going to be considered main content, since the entirety of the combat revolves around PvE skills which simply can't function as they should in PvP. So we end up with a horrible mess of instant spell interruptions, skills being nullified and everyone leaning towards DPS classes.

So yes, it really is the worst PvP I've ever seen in an MMO as well, but then it was never designed for it. Is it really all that surprising?

When it comes to PvP its all about numbers. Either let the opposite teams fight it out while you sit back and gather up the points or you over run a group with numbers. Doesn't matter how iron-clad your plan is, if you get out numbered you will not survive unless you have a few sleeps/freeze and AOE LBs saved up in the team.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

No, it really isn't. The queues are so long that you'd waste more time sitting around than actually earning tomes.

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It would be nice if they just got rid of GC affiliations for 24mans and ignored PvP ranks when duty findering in 4mans. This would help immensely with queue times.

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Originally Posted by myahele

Snip.

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I'm aware they used to be really OP in Seize. However, with the nerf to Holy, the changes to Lustrate, and the fact WHM HoTs don't stack anymore, I don't think healers are as much as a threat as they used to be. I've been healing in PvP for a long time, in many games, and this is the only game where I feel healers are really screwed over. Healers aren't threatening because they cannot fight back, they either flee or pray for assistance from their allies.

What I've seen work really well in other MMO's is to cut the potency of their attack skills in half for large-scale PvP. It lowers their DPS enough that it's not really viable to stack healers because their DPS is pretty poor, but it allows them to do enough that if they get into a 1v1 or even a 1v2 situation, they have a decent shot at coming out victorious (let's be honest, they get chased and cornered a lot so ending up in 1v1 in the 72-man PvP happens fairly often).

Besides. Paladins have high defense (in general + buffs), can do lots of damage (stacking Strength accessories), and have a heal that scales off of Strength, and have CC in the form of stun. Sure, they can't keep a whole party alive and they can't exactly Swiftcast Clemency, but they basically have access to a little bit of everything (tank, healer, and DPS) and they aren't considered OP. They have their strengths and weaknesses just as healers did with Cleric. They simply needed to change it, not remove it.

They can fix PvP shenanigans by getting rid of LB's, they're obnoxious, especially the melee one.

PvP needs to be taken into account in the earliest stages of game design, years before it launches to the public. This clearly is not the case for FFXIV design, so PvP requires more delicate attention, which the devs don't give. This is like the 10th time ive mentioned this on a PvP thread.

At this rate, of 0 balancing patches as far as pvp goes, i predict that the game's first season/ranked/ladder Wolves Den is going to be a complete failure. Which will cause the entire world to ignore the future seasons.

FFXIV PvP is very unfair and never been balanced.

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Originally Posted by Roegadyn_Bear

Except they acknowledge that PvP is a mini-game on this MMORPG.

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Originally Posted by adn

PVP in this game is a fun little distraction to the main game which is the PVE. That's why PVP offers gear that is only useful in PVP, and not really useful at all in the main game, and that's the way it should be.

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really? most of the time i think the PVE is the minigame. most people raid like 9 hours / week max. then eso cap wich is like 30 mins / day for random expert. and that's it. so... you can easily play the PVE minigame between your PVP, gathering, crafting, gold saucer... endless grind.