The obsession with "efficiency"

Let's talk about something that I feel is detrimental to the game's long-term health: people's near-fanatical obsession with "efficiency". The word's in quotes because it doesn't mean what these folks seem to want it to mean. Efficiency, in fact, can only really be measured as a time to performance ratio. To the fanatics, it seems to mean cutting corners no matter who's toes are stepped on. Which, in turn, leads to unjustifiable job discrimination based on negligible (at best) data.

Since the expansion's release, too many people have looked for reasons to exclude the new jobs (as well as certain jobs prior to the expansion) from endgame activities based on misleading numbers from content that had not been tuned for the average item levels of the average player. This has lead to people excluding Machinists, Bards, Astrologians, and Paladins based on an irrational obsession with DPS. Yes, I know about the DPS checks in these new fights. It doesn't justify forcing a longtime PLD to hop on the WAR bandwagon simply because someone with an adding machine glued to his hands makes a forum post deeming WAR the most "efficient" tank. It does not justify a MCH or BRD being denied a spot in an EX primal fight because of an Excel spreadsheet.

In short, it's OK to look for ways to optimize each job's performance. Having to needlessly change to some flavor-of-the-month job in some misguided search for "efficiency" really is not.

Some people actually have fun playing the game properly instead of banging the keyboard like cavemen and calling it be dps, tanking or healing.

In a game dominated by numbers, anything with higher outgoing numbers will always be more appealing. Conversely, anything which enables lower incoming numbers will also be more appealing.

The issue is that outgoing numbers are being given more weight now than incoming numbers (see ASTs pre-buff and PLDs) which leads to... You guessed it, exclusion of Jobs.

It's less of an obsession with efficiency than a core flaw in job design and balance.

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Originally Posted by Hayward

Let's talk about something that I feel is detrimental to the game's long-term health: people's near-fanatical obsession with "efficiency". The word's in quotes because it doesn't mean what these folks seem to want it to mean. Efficiency, in fact, can only really be measured as a time to performance ratio. To the fanatics, it seems to mean cutting corners no matter who's toes are stepped on. Which, in turn, leads to unjustifiable job discrimination based on negligible (at best) da

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Well, there's nit picking at efficiency, and there's getting upset at people who are adding 10-20 extra minutes to your dungeon runs because they can't even perform their pre-50 rotations properly and do less damage than your healer and tank.

When it comes to cutting edge progression, has no place since they ironically, fail at the role they're supposed to do (healing) because the devs thought having numerous support cards meant balancing via lower potency heals.

The current raid content also does not play to PLD's current strengths, and they're arguably the weakest class to bring, especially into A4S.

I think there's a fine line between efficiency and obsession, as Hayward said. I see nothing wrong with wanting to maximize your DPS or your role as a healer or tank. But, at the same time, I've been in parties where people would call out the DPS of a tank while we were still having aggro problems.

I think we should first worry about people functioning in their respective roles before we worry about maximizing the potential of every class/job. I know this game has some very steep DPS-checks, but I'm seeing quite a lot of tanks and healers letting other parties members die because they're too busy trying to maximize DPS instead of tanking or healing.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Well, there's nit picking at efficiency, and there's getting upset at people who are adding 10-20 extra minutes to your dungeon runs because they can't even perform their pre-50 rotations properly and do less damage than your healer and tank.

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Exactly. I'm a MCH, but I was previously maining WHM. I don't have Blood for Blood. I'm working on it now so that I can maximize my DPS, but I'm not going to pull my hair out over it. For me, personally, I just won't raid Alexander Savage or anything with very steep DPS checks when I know I might not be able to make it. Everything else is fair game, in my opinion.

No... it's about an obsession with 'efficiency'. Not everyone plays 'by the numbers', I know I don't. So long as you're not being a lazy cuss and things get done I'm satisfied. Who cares if it took 5 minutes or 15 minutes, it's about getting it done. I just had a run of Vault where we wiped to the last two bosses a few times total but noone rage-quit, we respawned, ran back and did it again and beat the dungeon with 40-ish minutes still left on the clock. Good run, I say. Everyone did their best, learned from their mistakes and kicked much arse. 'Efficiency experts' would have called the party out for 'wasting everyone's time' and rage-quit forcing everyone else to either wait for a replacement or abandon. We really don't need that kind of attitude in this game, and I hope it stays a rare event (it's been a while since I've partied with a caustic player, kind of glad about that).

True..as long as it gets done, then it's good. (Once had an Aery run ...we beat the clock by literally one second. That run was awful and that's an extreme example but hey. As long as it's finished my time has not been wasted.)

I still personally have yet to be excluded from anything for maining a Bard.... but, okay.

Excluding bards?! They're the class that transforms BLMs and SMNs into juggernauts. The Bard is a most efficient creature.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

snipped for space

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Let me cut this talking point out at the root. For the record, I am not talking about players who don't have basic rotations down or players who aren't using basic abilities. I am talking about players who are geared well, know their job, have developed a rotation that they're comfortable with and gets the job done.

Having said that, if a group's success in raid content is dependent on the DPS of a tank or healer, I think I'm safe in saying the content is a bit overtuned at that point in time and should not be a basis for assessing a job's capabilities.

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Originally Posted by Hayward

Let's talk about something that I feel is detrimental to the game's long-term health: people's near-fanatical obsession with "efficiency". The word's in quotes because it doesn't mean what these folks seem to want it to mean. Efficiency, in fact, can only really be measured as a time to performance ratio. To the fanatics, it seems to mean cutting corners no matter who's toes are stepped on. Which, in turn, leads to unjustifiable job discrimination based on negligible (at best) data.

Since the expansion's release, too many people have looked for reasons to exclude the new jobs (as well as certain jobs prior to the expansion) from endgame activities based on misleading numbers from content that had not been tuned for the average item levels of the average player. This has lead to people excluding Machinists, Bards, Astrologians, and Paladins based on an irrational obsession with DPS. Yes, I know about the DPS checks in these new fights. It doesn't justify forcing a longtime PLD to hop on the WAR bandwagon simply because someone with an adding machine glued to his hands makes a forum post deeming WAR the most "efficient" tank. It does not justify a MCH or BRD being denied a spot in an EX primal fight because of an Excel spreadsheet.

In short, it's OK to look for ways to optimize each job's performance. Having to needlessly change to some flavor-of-the-month job in some misguided search for "efficiency" really is not.

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This is based on the concept of progression clearing content and is a job balance issue and not a playerbase issue.

Players wish to complete content when it's released, it isn't a reasonable expectation to tell players to wait for gear to make their job work in new content, this speaks to class imbalance and bad game design. If one tank can complete content with the available gear when new content is released but another one needs 3 weeks work of tome cap gear (not only on themselves but also other party members) to perform at the same level, that's not a player obsession problem, it's a balance issue.

Players who want to complete content wont wait for broken (under-performing) jobs to be fixed or to take multiple weeks to acquire gear to be on the same level as other jobs when the easiest player-side solution is to either ask them to swap or to find someone else playing those jobs, case and point when it came to PLD and AST having significantly larger issues in progression raid content when compared to WAR/DRK and WHM/SCH.

Players do not have the ability to enact game design changes, they do have the ability to adjust to them however. If something just plain doesn't work or isn't as good as the alternatives chances are players will take the path of least resistance, if you want to fight the uphill battle of class balance then the onus is on you to create a party and try to do so, but you'll have to accept the possibility that players will seek alternatives if they're stopped by the wall of progression due to poor job balance.

You say that you understand DPS checks but it doesn't justify asking a PLD to swap to WAR, the question is if the entire party is putting out their maximum safest amount of DPS and you're still failing the encounter but another tank (WAR/DRK) could safely contribute the extra DPS with no detriment is the party at fault for wanting to seek the winning option?

Sadly the PLD becomes an unfortunate victim of poor class balance (which is a developer issue).

This is one problem we will never solve lol. we have the hard core people who prefer efficiency(like my self) and we have those lay back. One is water and the other is Oil.

One thing is for sure though, those lay back are doom to do their stuff only via DF and stick to primals. They will not get a static also.

It really isn't about efficiency. It's a byproduct of S-E making DPS/gear checks pretty much the be-all end-all mechanic in HW for whatever reason. DPS checks on BisEX, RavEX, all of Alexander, and I won't be surprised if hard DPS checks continue to show up in the near future. It's a double edged sword because it does force DPS to L2P, but on the other hand it has exacerbated the problem of classes being excluded from groups.

If they ever ease off of it you can probably expect people to stop being so obsessed over slight differences in DPS (and they really ARE slight differences in DPS, it's just that because of such harsh DPS checks, those slight differences start to matter)

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Originally Posted by adn

It really isn't about efficiency. It's a byproduct of S-E making DPS/gear checks pretty much the be-all end-all mechanic in HW for whatever reason. DPS checks on BisEX, RavEX, all of Alexander, and I won't be surprised if hard DPS checks continue to show up in the near future. It's a double edged sword because it does force DPS to L2P, but on the other hand it has exacerbated the problem of classes being excluded from groups.

If they ever ease off of it you can probably expect people to stop being so obsessed over slight differences in DPS (and they really ARE slight differences in DPS, it's just that because of such harsh DPS checks, those slight differences start to matter)

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Might as well not have gear if we have no dps checks, seeing as it wont matter. Also the alternative is to release the original second coil for the story mode and savage second coil for, well, savage. I mean you couldn't even scratch your nose in T7 back then.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgOXitbf1t8

the first thing i thought of
sorry but also not

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Originally Posted by mp-please

Some people actually have fun playing the game properly instead of banging the keyboard like cavemen and calling it be dps, tanking or healing.

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If you don't play the game this way then you haven't lived, I say.

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Originally Posted by Kukajoo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgOXitbf1t8

the first thing i thought of
sorry but also not

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OMG that was funny LOL LOL LOL LOL! The sad part is thats the way most people think!

All I have to say is I don't raid because I am 40 years old and I am not going to put up with the BS that comes with raiding. I raided when I was in my 20's and early 30's. Now I play how ever I see fit and make the game my own game. And I am much HAPPIER now.

I think every job is been excluded at some point, aside from DRK and NIN from what I can recall.

At one point:

BLM got excluded from Titan EX because of heavy movement.
SMN excluded because BLM just plain beat it out in damage.
All of the above plus Monk and DRG got excluded from Garuda EX because stacking bards was safer, even if it was slower. (before LB gauge filled slower with stacked jobs)
WAR was excluded because PLD was better at taking damage early on.
PLD excluded because it's abilities aren't suited towards certain content like A4S
WHM excluded because SCH shields are amazing and fairy buddy helps a lot.
SCH excluded because stacking HoTs on WHM was great plus the burst heals
BRD was excluded from groups for being the lowest DPS despite it's utility and Foe
MCH excluded for low DPS
AST excluded for low healing output and buffs from SCH being better and more consistent.


Balance changes, usually for the better. Sometimes it makes things overpowered, other times underpowered.

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Originally Posted by File2ish

I think every job is been excluded at some point, aside from DRK and NIN from what I can recall.

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You missed out:

ALL tanks excluded from Ramuh EX because SMN's Titan pet had overpowered aoe magic resist completely bypassing the tank swap and surge protection mechanic of the trial.
Brayflox Hard: BLM being the only DPS allowed on runs for animus tome grind.

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Originally Posted by File2ish

I think every job is been excluded at some point, aside from DRK and NIN from what I can recall.

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You also forgot DRGs being excluded from Final Coil because of our terrible MDEF (until they fixed it).