Big spoilers for pretty much the entire HW storyline
So, why exactly did King Thordan and his knights decide to murder and eat one of their allies in a way that was guaranteed to sunder their existing civilisation? Comparing Isghard to the ruins of Avalonia and Zenith, it does seem like their culture took a definite downgrade in the aftermath.
Were they just weirdly racist for a bunch of guys raised next to dragons their whole lives and also wildly optimistic about how the plan was going to go? Were they just assuming that all the other Elezen in the kingdom would be cool with it? Were all the other Elezen in the kingdom cool with it?
Like Hydaelyn herself, I'm very confused as to the whole chain of events.
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09-01-2015, 06:00 PMFJeromeThe Motivation for King Thordan and the Knights Twelve? (HW Spoilers)
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09-01-2015, 06:14 PMBelhi
Its hard to be clear on details. From the little we know it sounds like Thordan and his Knights did it to take the power of a celestial dragon for themselves. As to the why, its assumed that it was out of greed. Weither that was all there was to it or not isn't clear at this point.
As for the other Elezen, there is no guarantee they ever had the truth revealed to them. Indeed the opposite seems to be the truth. Thordan and his knights could easily claim that the dragons attacked them. Alternatively Thordan could have been part of a group of Elezen who felt that either they were becoming effectively servants of the Dragons rather than partners or felt that the differences between dragon and elezen meant that eventually their shared civilisation was destined to fall apart anyway. We see on the dragon side of things at least Nidhogg never liked the humans to start with. He pretty much says 'I told you so' during the echo vision.
Im kind of hoping they will delve further into this during the patch cycle. -
09-01-2015, 06:58 PMEnkidoh
Well, to me it seems at least that there was at least
But I'm just rambling again...some hint of Ascian involvement in the whole situation - Hraesvelgr admitted after all that even some of the dragons succumbed to the 'dark ones lies', specifically Tiamat summoning the fallen Bahamut as a Primal, and seemed to muse that the same thing was the cause of the elezen betrayal. And when you think about it, the current events of the Archbishop and the Heavensward becoming a Primal version of King Thordan and the Knights Twelve was just history repeating itself. All this has happened before, and all this will happen again.
My only fear though is that the writing team doesn't fall into the trap of simply having the Ascians behind every problem or disaster that happens in Hydaelyn, as Lahabrea and his ilk are starting to prove tiresome as antagonists. -
09-01-2015, 09:13 PMFJeromePudgy-Puk on tumblr did an interesting analysis on the flashback wood-paintings and made the point that while they tell the true events of the story the hierarchical proportions read as if the artist was attempting to glorify Thordan for them. It's possible he tried to make it look like a good thing back when they thought they were going to get away with it (Thordan's defeat isn't directly depicted, after all). Or is just unintended meta on the part of the SE art team. Or they didn't tell their own people but these were all painted by a third party, like some extremely creepy Moogle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Belhi
Agreed, I was thinking that might be the ultimate answer but I'm hoping it isn't, especially since 95% of the time it feels so unnecessary; the mortal factions seem perfectly capable of sowing chaos and destruction without any outside help.Quote:
Originally Posted by Enkidoh
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09-01-2015, 10:19 PMDererk
We don't even see them eat the dragon maybe there's a deeper conspiracy going on could be a number of things.
1. Nidhogd is the one who told them that their eyes are their source of power and expecting that they will kill his brood sister and give him an excuse to kill them and break their alliance. And maybe he had some grudge against her.
2. The dragon they ate told them to take her eyes for some even deeper conspiracy we don't know about. Maybe she found out something was going to happen maybe she was severely wounded by something or some one and thought her eyes would better serve their ally's than die with her.
We don't know because we can only relie on the echo maybe it will go into more detail down 3.x -
09-01-2015, 10:49 PMMidnightS
Anytime the world takes a turn from order towards chaos, you can bet good money the Ascians have a hand in it.
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09-01-2015, 11:44 PMCilia
More likely than not, the Ascians told them about how to gain the dragons' power; if not, the dragons told them themselves, and they simply succumbed to the temptation.
Even if you want to believe man as a whole is good, all it takes is one bad apple to ruin it for everyone... -
09-02-2015, 12:07 AMBelhi
Im not opposed to Ascian involvement for a simple reason.
In FF14 the narrative plays out on two levels.
On one level there is the day to day struggles that the WoL goes through. Fighting primals, helping people, fighting the Garleans and dealing with the dragonsong war. While the Ascians exist behind the scenes a lot in all of this these conflicts are perpetrated by mortal desires, ideologies and beliefs.
On another higher level there is a meta war that exists above all this and that most of the world is only vaguely aware of and that is the war between darkness and light. Its a war that we as the WoL have stepped into towards the final moves and its a war where we don't know all the rules. All the day to day struggles are merely battlefields in this abstract war that lights at the very heart of Eorzea's fate and its this war that ties all the other conflicts together. Even something as long and huge as the Dragonsong war is just another piece in this giant chessgame.
This is one of the really interesting things about the FF14 story. A war so grand in size that most people simply don't fathom it. In this the Ascians exist as our opposites. This is why I think their presence in all the major events is valuable. However the depth of their involvement and how apparent it is can vary. I don't think every such conflict needs some direct confrontation or heavy manipulation. I like having the Ascians spend most of their time lurking off behind the scenes, playing their hidden moves in this shadow war. Lets be honest, at this point most of them would probably be incline to avoid confronting us unless necessary.
In 4.0 I would like two things. The Ascians to step back into the shadows for a bit and for us to take some time off from Allag lore. I love the Allag but frankly they seem more present in everything than the Ascians are. -
09-02-2015, 12:21 AMFenral
But everything would be sunshine and rainbows for everyone if just those pesky Ascians didn't get involved. I believe that's the trap Enkidoh is referring to. FFXIV is currently more than a little guilty of turning the "darkness" usually characterized as being an inescapable part of human nature into an external, defeatable foe.
The Cloud of Darkness (a terrible, ironic name) is sort of a cosmic cleanup crew that sweeps in any time light or dark get too far out of balance, Zeromus is simply an avatar of hatred that can be born and reborn any time someone's heart succumbs to it, and most other FF antagonists (Kefka, Spehiroth, Kuja, Seymour, etc.) are simply there as an obstacle to reinforce some underlying theme of the heroes' adventure, rather than serve as a representation of any particular morality.
The Ascians, on the other hand, are framed as an inhuman and external player in most larger conflicts, and while they may be taking advantage of human weaknesses, the implication is still by and large that things wouldn't have gone as badly if not for direct intervention from a supernatural entity. The Ascians can't be defeated, but not because the source of their power is an inescapable part of human nature, but because the power they receive from their ambiguous dark god simply makes them extremely difficult to kill. And defeating all 12 (14?) will be a decisive victory for the light and the creation of a world where everything is happy for everyone all the time.
Or so the writer and director would have us believe. How long we have to believe that depends entirely on how long they think we'll keep buying such an obviously ludicrous premise. Yes, I'm using the majority of other games in the series as a frame of reference, so slap my wrist if you must, but there's probably something more there than our current "light is good, more light is more good" mode. -
09-02-2015, 03:57 AMAyuhra
Starting a thousand year war would be right up the alley of a people devoted to sowing seeds of chaos and carnage.
I'm not sure what Thordan I's actual motivation was. My assumption based on a surface reading of the lore was that he learned Dragons derive longevity from their eyes so he and his knights killed Ratatoskr and ate her eyes to try and gain immortality. This might have been perceived by other Elezen of the time as him trying to grasp long term glory for his people, so that the tribes could rise up and dominate. Certainly historians have recorded it that way, though over time the whole eye gouging thing was forgotten and the story was turned into one of self defense.
So who told Thordan about the eye? Maybe an Ascian. Maybe Lahabrea himself.
In which case won't it be fun when someone takes out Nidhogg to save Estinien and eats the eye with Lahabrea lodged in it. It's like musical chairs only with more laughing. -
09-02-2015, 05:26 AMCilia(If he's in there and still alive, I will seriously lose my marbles.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayuhra
Anyway, given this seems to be a hearkening back to classical Final Fantasy titles where light = good, so more light = more good, I'd say killing all the Ascians and preventing Zodiark's revival is probably our ultimate goal. Any number of theories can be thrown around, but until Elidibus feels like sharing with the class, that's all we have... -
09-02-2015, 06:35 AMFJeromeThat would be genuinely interesting. Really at this point I just want to find out more about Ratatoskr in general, other than just "she died and we're mad about it".Quote:
Originally Posted by Dererk
Yeah, if the Ascians did have a hand in it (please no), this is more the sort of thing I'd imagine having happened?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayuhra
The Ascians haven't, up to now, been the root cause of anything, only the enablers. The Garleans still want to conquer, the Ala Mhigans still want their city back, the Beast Tribes still want protection and vengeance; the Ascians have just been stepping in to take advantage of that.
Or we THINK we got Estinien back but what we get is Lahabrea in an Estinien suit (Estinien has a possession problem, don't judge him).Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayuhra
. . . Really, tho', it would be hilarious if Lahabrea possessed Nidhogg, if only to watch Elidibus scramble to try and find a robe big enough to fit him. -
09-03-2015, 03:40 PMCyrilLuciferIf I eat the eye, will I have a permanent laughing Laha snarking at me in my head? I'm okay with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayuhra
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09-03-2015, 04:16 PMDaraliiAdding his voice to the Beast, the Darkness, the Dragon Within, and Hydaelyn?Quote:
Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer
The WoL must have a chorus in their head at this point. -
09-03-2015, 06:54 PMCGMidlanderAnd the occasional linkpearl call from Minfilia. lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Daralii
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09-03-2015, 11:47 PMFJeromeThat's what I was thinking. "Wouldn't she just drown them out?".Quote:
Originally Posted by CGMidlander
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09-07-2015, 02:10 PMJeniLinskyIt was Alphinaud's fault. Just like everything else from 2.1 onward.Quote:
Originally Posted by FJerome
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09-08-2015, 04:14 PMSissymandias
We don't know exactly what Thordan I & his knights' motives were since we only got one cutscene about it from their perspective, and they didn't exactly spell it out plain then. I can't rewatch the scene right now to verify, but my impressions at the time were:
-They don't come off 'evil' to me at all, in fact they all seem really drained from the whole experience & didnt find it something to be celebrated (some of them anyway..?)
-I dont recall any mention of ascians in that scene but im almost certain theyre involved. Just seems like something they would be behind.
Based on that it seems to me like part of their motive in killing and taking Ratatoskr's eyes was that they were performing some kind of necessary evil (possibly due to ascians misleading them into thinking so). So that might make it similar to Thordan VII's motives in that sense, but unlike the archbishop, Thordan I & co seemed to at least show some measure of remorse for what they'd done, even if they felt it was justified. -
09-08-2015, 11:32 PMNalienThe hint is in the name; King Thordan.Quote:
Originally Posted by FJerome
He was a King. He should be the absolute ruler of his nation. When you're allied with immortal dragons though? The whole concept of Royalty eventually goes out the window; He would grow old, his reign would end, and he'd die. Meanwhile his Dravanian "allies" would remain. Who do you think his people would look to in a time of crisis? He could be the best damned King ever, but his wisdom and combat skills would still pale in comparison to that of any of Midgardsormrs children. If shit hits the fan, I'd go calling on Hraesvelgr for advice/assistance, not Thordan... Just look at the Battle of Silvertear Skies; None of the leaders in Eorzea could have dealt with that, but Midgardsormr just cleans the floor with Garlemald... If you're a King, and you're allied to that... Well, you're not really a King anymore... You're just another weak mortal...
So he ended up coveting that power and decided to try and take it by force... Whether he always knew about their Eyes, or the Ascians clued him in, I can't really say since there is no indication. I imagine his motivation was almost exactly the same as Thordan VII's though; "I'll become God-King and rule forever", except Nidhogg still managed to kill him. I imagine that is why his Knights were so dejected at the end, they were aiming for immortality and they clearly didn't get it. They took down Ratatoskr as mortals and hoped to become powerful after consuming her, yet when Nidhogg found them, he managed to kill several of them, including their hoped-to-be God-King. They had clearly made a serious mistake and they all knew it, the best they hoped for was that their display would scare off the rest of the horde. That's why Haldrath passed up his reign to instead hunt dragons, to keep them scared.
Had Nidhogg not survived that might actually have worked and they could have lived in peace. They'd be worse off than when they were allied to the Dravanians, but they'd be better off than they were before that alliance. We actually didn't get a time frame for that conflict did we? We're just told that Shiva and Hraesvelgr managed to end it when Shiva sacrificed herself by letting Hraesvelgr eat her (perhaps that's where Thordan got the idea, actually...), if Elezen were still alive who remembered that conflict then there could perhaps have still been some resentment on their side, which would make breaking the alliance easier, more-so if breaking it gains you a God-King and unlimited power to give you the edge this time.
Of course, it might have been really simple; Thordan just wanted a new pair of Wyvernskin Boots, so he had to slaughter Ratatoskr. Crafting in this game really does a great job of flying in the face of the narrative... I can pop out my Midgardsormr minion and go about slaughtering Wyverns and Dragons for their skins, because I need them for crafting, yet Midgardsormr still goes "Oh yes, Hydaelyns Champion helped bring peace between our people!". No Middy, I've perhaps slaughtered more dragons than Ishgard has in its entire history, all for their skins, and I blame Rowena. I go about slaughtering sentient dragons just for crafting collectables... I hope next expansion gives us Lalafell Skins and Lalafell Leather (and Miqo'te Furs and Au Ra Scales), because going through the story and then having to farm Dragon Skins for crafting is just as grim... And people complain that PvP flies in the face of this games themes... Crafting puts you on a genocidal campaign against all life on Hydaelyn, the Warrior of Darkness was just on Warrior to farm materials, he actually mains Culinarian... -
09-09-2015, 02:51 AMmyahele
Yeah, I'm sure Asciens influenced their decisions, but for the most part resentment and envy was within them from the start.
With so many depiction of dragons in proto-ishgard architecture, it seem pretty clear they revered dragons greatly. In fact, it's nothing but dragons and Shiva in their architecture. No Elezens and no Halone. -
09-09-2015, 03:16 AMFJeromeYeah, that's largely why I'm interested in this, because Prince Haldrath and the Forgotten Knight talk sins and betrayal and trading their honour. They don't seem like men who'd have gone through with this for petty reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sissymandias
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalien
Wait, you're a level 60 Alchemist, how have you not noticed all this Spoken Blood we've been using all this time?
The time for moral quibbles passed long ago, my friend.
Nevermind, wrong Taisai Jin.
Um, stop levelling Alchemist. Don't ask why. If the Brass Blades stop by this was all just stuff I brought back clearing Voidsent out from Haukke Manor. -
09-09-2015, 04:47 AMCelvantisThat's what always struck me, just how dominating the Dragon symbolism was over the elezen in the ruins. The question that I always wondered was just how dominating was they?Quote:
Originally Posted by myahele
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09-09-2015, 05:03 AMFJeromeIt may also be because the ruins that survived that are the monumental ones that would actually have housed the dragons back in the day; there's not as much dragon iconography on the more Elezen-scale buildings but there's very few of those left.Quote:
Originally Posted by Celvantis
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09-09-2015, 05:13 PMNalienI suppose the difference is that Spoken Blood isn't obtained by killing people, it seems to be taken from vampire bats. Dragon Blood, however, is only obtained by slaughtering dragons... Further proof that crafters are evil would be what they make from Dragon Blood; Potions. The main scenario makes a point of how dangerous it would be if the common folk knew that just drinking Dragon Blood could prove their lineage, meanwhile Alchemists could reasonably go around selling Dragon Blood Potions and force all of Ishgard to transform into dragons... They're not even helping Ishgard by slaughtering dragons, crafters are just aiming for chaos!Quote:
Originally Posted by FJerome
I'm certain; King Thordan saw the Lv60 recipes and knew peace between man and dragon was impossible, so he took the initiative. He knew dragons would have to be slaughtered to produce new items, so he aimed to gain power before, rather than having dragons maintain the upper hand again. The only thing he didn't count on, was that dragons are idiots; "This is Hydaelyns Champion, he/she wishes for peace between man and dragon!", says Midgardsormr, while the Warrior of Light is standing their wearing the skins of, and soaked in the blood of, a thousand dragons.
To quote Mitchell and Webb; "Are we the baddies?", I certainly don't see the Ascians going around slaughtering the franchises mascots... Perhaps we should join the Garleans... Our allies are outraged at how Garlemald handles beast tribes (slaughtering them), but how are we any better? Isn't that exactly what we aimed to do with Nidhogg? You can't tell me its wrong to slaughter one tribe, then turn around and have me slaughter Dravanians for a fancy new jacket... Just think of all the beastmen we've slaughtered doing dailies too... Sylphs especially... Sure, they aggro'd us, but given our reputation, wouldn't you want to try and deal with the crazed murderer running through your territory? We really are no better than Garlemald... They're at least doing it to stop the Primals, we only stop Primals for ponies and we butcher the beast tribes for a minion and a mount... Thordan VII's final moments make a lot more sense now... -
09-09-2015, 07:48 PMFJeromeSo you're saying that Thordan I was just an Omnicrafter resorting to arsehole tactics to try to corner the market?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalien
...that actually makes a lot of sense.
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The subject of using dragon bits in crafting has been something that's come up in my FC a lot, actually. It'd help if it were easier to tell which dragons are sapient people and which are just animals, because there seems to be a range there but it's not always clear, like biasts always seem to just be beasts but that one Convictory questline makes it seem like some dragonflies are people enough that wyvern mourn them.
At this point in time we're rolling with a variation of the whole "the NPCs only have limited knowledge and aren't 100% accurate in their naming" business, or at least that their naming taxonomy has no real relation to which dragons are people-dragons and which are just big lizards and these wyvern-leather hotpants I'm wearing totally weren't made from the wings of someone's mother. -
09-10-2015, 09:32 PMLineageRazor
I think the ongoing hand-wave is that all aggressive dragons (which is pretty much all dragons we encounter that aren't green-text NPCs) are either unintelligent animals, Nidhogg's brood, or both. Much like Nidhogg himself, there's no reasoning with them, and as long as they're alive they're a hazard to the Spoken races, so it's okay to cut them down, rip off their skins, and parade around in them like some kind of psychopath.
Of course, Omnicrafter Thordan still had his dilemma, since Nidhogg and his brood weren't (overtly) hostile back then. He had to do SOMETHING to gain those leathercrafting levels! Really, there was simply no other way. -
09-11-2015, 08:59 AMCGMidlander*spits out coffee*Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalien
Lmao!