AST Gear BiS

With the current gear in 3.07 how are you guys deciding astros gear? Focusing on crit, piety, or det?

It seems me that you can get a really decent amount of crit with astros eso gear combined with the gordian.

How are you guys doing it?

just focus on as high lvl gear as possible. i dont think there is a lot of meaning into walking around with 10-20 ilvl lower pieces just to get as high as desired possible secondary stat.

As of right now since you can't do much mixing and matching just get as high an ilvl as you can. Personally I think AST benefits from Crit and Det the most so when the time comes where we can mix and match armor more the stats would probably be like Mind > Crit > Det > Pie > SpS

I think crit too. Astro definitely benefits from crit.

I really like having high crit as astro especially since essential dignity can crit. For example astros pants, which would you choose? Gordian is crit piety and welkin is det piety.

Also how do you determine when you have enough piety? Is it just a matter of feeling it out?

Crit is not that amazing from a healing perspective. The only reason SCHs tend to prioritize crit is that Adloquium is fantastic when it crits (and shielding in general is much better with crit, but I'm not sure I would take the same approach with AST just for Noct). Otherwise you are usually better off prioritizing DET if you are purposefully timing your heals (as you should), since crit tends to contribute to overhealing.

For healers other than SCH I personally prefer DET and then PIE to taste, followed by CRT and finally SPSPD.

As for how much PIE you need, it's more of a preference, yes. It's rather difficult to wind up without a functional MP pool since PIE is very common on healer equipment, but WHM and AST are likely to prefer higher PIE values since they don't get 20% of their MP pool back ever 60 seconds in addition to the ability to use Energy Drain, like SCH. Their MP restoration tools are decent, but not quite as powerful as Aetherflow.

No secondary stat has much impact right now. But that doesn't mean you can gear for specific gear. It's really questionable whether crit is really worth it or not, but same goes for determination. The only spells that really benefit from a big increase (regardless of overhealing) would be Aspected Benefic and aspected Helios in Nocturnal Sect. Whereas determination helps every single spell you have - Be it mitigation, DoTs or HoTs - regardless of your stance.

I'll repeat it again: Stats don't have much impact or value with current gear limitations.

Other topic concerning statweight:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...highlight=stat

i'm building it using different gear for Noct and diurnal sect.
SS for dirunal (754)
Pie for noct ( 16179MP <- based on my currently MP/pie)

I'm not sure if it will work well but i will give it a try anyway!

WD>Mind>Piety>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>SS>Det>Crit

Honestly, only the mind and piety are relevant, the rest don't do much...but if I was going to choose, I'd probably go for SS first, given how it would get further boosted by diurnal's 5% AS (which is very significant).

Crit isn't worth that much right now as opposed to just getting higher item levels.

And it's worth less on an astro then a sch as sch have 2 mechanics centered around crit. Adloquim and the pet crit spell speed buff. While astro has nothing.

I prefer DET for consistently bigger heals/piety for mp pretty equally, and then spellspeed. Personal preference though, really. I doubt any one set of secondaries is 'best' it is more about playstyle.

Honestly, with AST all of the stats are good/have a purpose.

WD = obvious
Mind = obvious
Piety = extra heals
Deter = bigger heals
SS = quicker heals/better HOTs
Crit = better shields in Nocturnal (even though they don't get SCH's double shield, a crit shield still shields for the amount crit'd)

For me, Astro is looking like Acc, Crit and Pie, with SpS is the stat to avoid, and det being neutral.

I'm focusing more on Det/Pie. More Det increases my healing output as well as damage and more Pie so when I draw Ewer I can either RR or throw it on my co healer/caster dps.

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Originally Posted by Aurelinaus

For me, Astro is looking like Acc, Crit and Pie, with SpS is the stat to avoid, and det being neutral.

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Crit is pretty much uselles if play more in diurnal, they will became overheal almost all time and you don't have control of this, i get trolled by RNG all time whit the cards don't wanna to focus on another RNG thing to troll me , but if you play more on nocturnal they can be very good for the shields.
SpS is good for the HoTs, faster heals and faster DPS I fail to understand why he is the stat to avoid.

Stacking crit pre buff was popular because it helped compensate for the lower potency healing. Now I think you will just be over healing and producing undesirable aggro staving crit. AST still suffers from mana issues in harder content too so pie is a really good choice for progression. Next det to aid dps. Not a lot of gear options at the moment but do your best to prioritize your eso buys based on what you are least likely to see from savage as well. A great first buy is weapon then chest. Then stack pie and det pieces. At least that's what I would do if I mained AST (I play it but I'm a WHM main)

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Originally Posted by Rashammel

Crit is pretty much uselles if play more in diurnal, they will became overheal almost all time and you don't have control of this, i get trolled by RNG all time whit the cards don't wanna to focus on another RNG thing to troll me , but if you play more on nocturnal they can be very good for the shields.
SpS is good for the HoTs, faster heals and faster DPS I fail to understand why he is the stat to avoid.

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Because spell speed doesn't have much impact on HoTs: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-Sucks-for-HoT

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Originally Posted by dark494

A difference of 200 spellspeed equated to a 2-3% change in regen tick potency, a difference of 20-30 hp per tick, on average.

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(Disclaimer: I haven't bothered checking the spreadsheet)

HoTs don't have a lot of potency: 140 Potency on Aspected Benefic in Diurnal Sect. If we were to translate the 200 spell speed increase into potencies: 2-3% of 140 potency is a mere 2.8-4.2 potency increase for every tick. Here's another post on bluegartr:

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Without a ton of accuracy, you can say that roughly 44 Critical Hit will raise your Critical Hit Rate by 1%.

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source: http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/125...3.0-Bardshrekt

200 critical hit rate, for easier comparison with spell speed, is an increase of 4.55% crit chance. Which in turn can be translated into an average healing increase of 2.27%. Roughly the same as spell speed.

Now if we assume Determination has a comparable value, spell speed isn't worth taking at all.
For one: Spell Speed would mainly benefit HoTs. It decreases your GCD by a tiny bit, but does not directly strengthen any spells nor does it help your MP management
Secondly: Unlike spell speed, determination and critical hit rate affects nearly your entire kit. Be it healing spells, healing abilities or damage spells. Increased average healing with all your spells can also be translated into hp recovery for every MP spend.
Lastly: While spell speed does not hold any obvious or more direct merits, secondary stats hardly have any effect right now. Secondary stats don't matter much with current gear. But it's something to consider for later patches.

tldr; stats have comparable increases. Crit/Det still more valuable as it affects entire kits (in both sects for astrologian), unlike spell speed.

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Originally Posted by Rashammel

SpS is good for the HoTs, faster heals and faster DPS I fail to understand why he is the stat to avoid.

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Lyrica gave some great info, and I'll add this reiteration to that: faster heals are unnecessary except during emergencies (and there are buff CDs and oGCD heals to deal with those situations). Healing a tiny bit faster does nothing for good players; it can give some players miniscule padding to their margin for error when they fail to learn and anticipate mechanics, but it's superfluous if you already know what you're doing.

Faster DPS is only really useful when you can spam your attacks. A healer who can turret and chain-cast their primary filler nuke throughout the fight will benefit a bit from SPSPD, but under average circumstances the benefit to your DPS is extremely minimal.

I believe that every stat is useful at some point and I don't like the idea of having too little of one stat in favor of the other. But in the end, I believe that everything is personal in this matter since healing is more about your skill as a player than the stats you have on. However, from all that has been discussed here, I'd like to point out some things:

1. Determination is not as strong as it used to be. Back in 2.X, 1 point in DET added around 0.48 in average healing according to the blitz calculator, and it was established that 4~5 DET = 1 MND; for 3.X gear, this value is nerfed, so I highly doubt that dropping ilvl to get more determination will increase healing output;

2. Critical hit does not necessarily increase overall healing. Healing is not like DPSing and when you get a critical hit, if the extra value is higher than what you needed, it means that it got wasted. HPS is not a good way to measure actual healing, since it doesn't take into account the amount of value you lost from overhealing. Getting a crit at the wrong time just generates more threat, it doesn't do anything for healing;

3. Piety and Spell Speed are situational. You need that extra MP/reduction in (re)cast timers until you don't need it anymore. Of course, there is a minimum value you need to perform well, but higher numbers are better when you don't know the fight and as soon as you've got everything figured out, you can drop some piety/spell speed to get more of the other stats.

Piety is an awesome stat. It doesn't just increase your max MP. It also increase your infight mana reg.

One point is: its good during practise time, because you can keep the fight run longer.

Other point is: More mana and regeneration = more possible solo heal = more time for your SCH to DPS.

As both AST and WHM, I will never use PIE again. 99% of the fights requiered in this game leave me with over 7k HP - including massive dps'ing - (from a total of 13k).
The only 1% left are the savage raids, which would burn my PIE out. I compensate with food.
As an AST, when I get the chance for an optimal BiS, I'll probably focus on getting DET/CRIT
For my WHM, I'll always take Spellspeed over DET/CRIT.

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Originally Posted by cgbspender

I'll always take Spellspeed over DET/CRIT.

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Do elaborate how useful spellspeed "would be" :P

Spoiler: 0,03 GCD difference is useless unless you're casting 33 spells in a row without pausing at all

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

Do elaborate how useful spellspeed "would be" :P

Spoiler: 0,03 GCD difference is useless unless you're casting 33 spells in a row without pausing at all

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Spoiler: wrong.

It allows you to move quicker after starting a cast.
It allows you to fit more abilities in between strict event times, .03 seconds it 1 extra ability with a 9.99 (never 10 seconds due to latency) second timer over 2.5 second recasts.
It effects abilities that other stats have zero effect (except piety). Like Stone skin, or precast shields / hots.

ect ect ect

.01 seconds can be a wipe or a world first.

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Originally Posted by Staris

Spoiler: wrong.

It allows you to move quicker after starting a cast.
It allows you to fit more abilities in between strict event times, .03 seconds it 1 extra ability with a 9.99 (never 10 seconds due to latency) second timer over 2.5 second recasts.
It effects abilities that other stats have zero effect (except piety). Like Stone skin, or precast shields / hots.

ect ect ect

.01 seconds can be a wipe or a world first.

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All technically true, but in reality unlikely to make any significant difference.

What really makes the difference is knowing the fight. Besides, in the event that the unexpected happens during progression due to player error, SPSPD is almost certainly not going to be what saves you (if anything does).

Are we about to reiterate the whole spell speed debate again and explain why it's a stat only viable for terrible healers who have no clue what they're doing?

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

Are we about to reiterate the whole spell speed debate again and explain why it's a stat only viable for terrible healers who have no clue what they're doing?

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Over the average endgame raid period of 8 minutes 30 seconds, 0 spell speed will net you 204 spells disregarding oGCDs and the like. Prioritizing spell speed gives you 219. Spell Speed is good because versus the 100ish point improvement Determination gives you per Cure/Benefic/Adloquium, you get 1500 extra healing power, versus 15 extra spells that can be put towards damage or healing, which vastly outscales "less, but more potent" heals. Crit is rather on a separate level than Determination, but if it were more reliable (if you could have a chance above 35% or so), then I would be more of an advocate for that. Spell Speed is good.

but we're all "terrible healers who have no idea what we're doing so I don't expect someone who has the audacity to call people who don't conform to their opinion "terrible" to be able to consider other opinions and better numbers. So I'll just let that sit. It won't do them any good anyway, let them have their Det.

The extra actions bit would hold more weight if healers played like BLM with set rotations and a heavy reliance on hard casts and timers, but they don't.

The healing game, including the DPS side of it, is much more about the quality of your actions rather than the sheer number of them you are able to perform.

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Originally Posted by Gist

Over the average endgame raid period of 8 minutes 30 seconds, 0 spell speed will net you 204 spells disregarding oGCDs and the like. Prioritizing spell speed gives you 219.

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Show me a video where you cast non-stop for the entire duration without breaks or the need of an external source of MP generation (ie: Ballad, Promotion)

edit:
Also without the need to pointlessly overheal just to get the extra spells out of it for the sake of it.

To each his own I guess, but to me I think spell speed is godly especially with how it affects HoT now. The arrow is amazing if you have to solo heal a lot as it allows you to confidently spam benefic to proc benefic II, which is an insta cast benefic II. For BLM, 0.0001s might not make a difference but when it comes to healing every fraction of a second matters because that fraction of a second could mean the difference between a dead tank and a live one. For WHM and AST, my secondary stat priority is SSPD, PIE, DET, CRIT.

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Originally Posted by OmegaFlare

To each his own I guess, but to me I think spell speed is godly especially with how it affects HoT now.

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Crit has as much effect on spell speed in the long run on HoTs. The effect of determination's still unknown to me, so I'll leave it out for now.
But here's the main difference between Crit and Spell speed: Crit actually affects your entire kit, whereas Spell Speed does not. - Same argument could be applied for Determination, even with the precise effects unknown.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post3294007

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Originally Posted by OmegaFlare

but to me I think spell speed is godly especially with how it affects HoT now. The arrow is amazing if you have to solo heal a lot as it allows you to confidently spam benefic to proc benefic II, which is an insta cast benefic II. For BLM, 0.0001s might not make a difference but when it comes to healing every fraction of a second matters because that fraction of a second could mean the difference between a dead tank and a live one. For WHM and AST, my secondary stat priority is SSPD, PIE, DET, CRIT.

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For BLM those tiny fractions of seconds make a difference precisely because their main objective is to chain cast uninterrupted for as long as possible.

For healers you are looking at predictable sources of damage and a toolbox that already provides for fast patching of screw ups (provided that they occur at a reasonable frequency). Also, Benefic II proc is one of the worst out there for being A) RNG and B) neither free to cast nor oGCD.

Spell Speed ain't even all that good for HoTs or DoTs if Dervyi's theorycrafting is to be believed.

Then again, Squeenix never said they'd make Spell Speed godly, just that they'd buff it. And now it's somewhat more impressive, but still rather unimpressive. :p

So, if you insist on stacking spell speed for whatever reason, don't do it for the sake of making your HoTs better. Do it for the reduced cast times and the faster global cooldown, because the other secondaries will give you a better improvement to your HoTs for lesser amounts required. And even then, with how the damage flow works in XIV, Spell Speed is still a rather unimpressive choice, all things considered.

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Originally Posted by cgbspender

The only 1% left are the savage raids

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This is the onliest content in the game, for which you have to think about BiS gear. For every content else, you can use, what you get.

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Originally Posted by Gist

Over the average endgame raid period of 8 minutes 30 seconds, 0 spell speed will net you 204 spells disregarding oGCDs and the like. Prioritizing spell speed gives you 219. Spell Speed is good

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No, its not, because the damage incomming is fully scriptet and fix (except in PvP). All you need to know is what to heal and when you do that. There is no benefit you gain from SS over other stats.

In all raids we had till now, I never had healing issues because of lacking SS.

Actually AST casttimes are out of the box still shorter than heals of the other 2 jobs. So SS will be there much more a waste of points.

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Originally Posted by OmegaFlare

To each his own I guess, but to me I think spell speed is godly especially with how it affects HoT now.

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DET and CRIT are still more powerful for HoTs.

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

All you need to know is what to heal and when you do that.

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So I learned today that healers don't help their raid team DPS during downtime when the damage is scripted and fixed. Combust + Combust II rotation gives you about 200 dps for 10 seconds without cleric stance (same as Aero as it happens), which nets you about 2000 -reliable- damage versus the same that MIGHT be gotten from having one of those crit. That's also not counting the faster Malefic IIs that you're also throwing out. Spell Speed reduces all of your spell cooldowns, not just your healing. :)

I was told once that DPSing as a healer is required, and having Spell Speed increases your DPS by about 100 on average (a la caster DPS)~

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Originally Posted by Gist

So I learned today that healers don't help their raid team DPS during downtime when the damage is scripted and fixed.

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KarstenS never claimed that. Knowing when to heal doesn't mean you don't spend time dealing damage. On the contrary; knowing when to heal allows you to deal damage.

I am still waiting on that 8:30 video of yours where there is no break, no external mp source and whatever conditions I wrote before.

I can already tell you that you'll never find such a video because you'll run out of mp before you get anywhere near the end of the duration before you can even get the spell count benefit out of it.

edit:
Note for moderators: Posting on a mobile application is stupidly tenacious

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Originally Posted by Gist

I was told once that DPSing as a healer is required, and having Spell Speed increases your DPS by about 100 on average (a la caster DPS)~

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100 dps increase on average? Let's humour you for a bit and let's assume you indeed get that extra 15 spells out from the original 204 spells. I can't be bothered to do the maths here for you, so let's just use Malefic II flat 200 potency.
204 spells worth of Malefic II equals 40800 potency
219 spells worth of Malefic II equals 43800 potency
That's a 3000 potency increase, or an increase of 7.35%

So unless the astrologian was doing 1360 DPS in the first place, or anywhere near 1000 DPS, no amount of spell speed will generate a DPS increase of 100 with current gear

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Originally Posted by Gist

So I learned today that healers don't help their raid team DPS during downtime when the damage is scripted and fixed. Combust + Combust II rotation gives you about 400 dps for 6 seconds (same as Aero as it happens), which nets you about 2400 -reliable- dps versus the same that MIGHT be gotten from having one of those crit. That's also not counting the faster Malefic IIs that you're also throwing out. Spell Speed reduces all of your spell cooldowns, not just your healing. :)

I was told once that DPSing as a healer is required, and having Spell Speed increases your DPS by about 100 on average (a la caster DPS)~

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If you start with a punchline, avoid looking like a fool afterwards.
"2400DPS"... but not per second!

"Having SpSp increases your DPS by about 100 on average", well, again, a very meaningful statement.

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Originally Posted by Gist

and having Spell Speed increases your DPS by about 100 on average (a la caster DPS)

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I'm in a raid group with 2 BLM for one and a half year now.

One BLM is focussed on SS/DET. The other on Crit/DET.

Their DPS is nearly equal.

Sometimes the one has more. Sometimes the other.

And don't get out of the mind: While a SCH can DPS nearly endless without mana issues, an AST or WHM run out of mana after around 2 minutes straight DPSing (single target). The fight in A1S is around 8 minutes long. You will not chain cast all the time. Beside healing, and maybe DPSing, you will have to manage your mana as good as possible. Ballad should only get used, when there is no other solution.

I don't think secondary stats matter enough to really worry too much about at this point, but I'd still much prefer DET/CRIT/PIE than SS on anything; SS is mostly useless, and doesn't actually increase throughput unless you stand still and cast endlessly without interruption. Even in this case, you'd be blowing through MP much faster, whereas having DET/CRIT/PIE would allow you to conserve much more, comparatively.

Also, having SS isn't going to allow you to DPS anymore than you normally would be able to, given that you're familiar enough with the encounter to know when to DPS. It's also not going to increase your DPS by 100 just by stacking it; thinking that is silly. Talking about two DPS spells from AST (Combust & Combust II) and saying that SS is somehow worth prioritizing because of that is hilarious; SS effects DoTs about as much as DET does (if not less), so DET would still be a better stat to stack from a DPS standpoint, since it also increases healing done.

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Originally Posted by Gist

Combust + Combust II rotation gives you about 400 dps for 6 seconds (same as Aero as it happens), which nets you about 2400 -reliable- dps

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I don't think you understand how DPS works/what it means, or how much damage Combust + Combust II actually do and how long they last (hint: its a lot more than 6 seconds, and a lot less than 2400DPS). Labeling SS as somehow being the "reliable" way to increase DPS is incorrect; DET would still net you "reliable" DPS from Combust + Combust II, while also increasing all healing done.

My personal preference for stats on AST is: WD > MND >> DET/CRIT > PIE (until comfortable, hard to not have PIE on most healer gear now) >>>> SS

In retrospect, I mistook some terminology, but most of what I wrote still applies, and I have edited my first post to reflect that.

Having more spells go out means more contribution overall in my opinion. While not playing with AST, I've toyed with DET on my WHM, and my DPS in a2 decreased with increased Det vs. decreased Spell Speed by about 150. Some people say "quality over quantity", but in a race against time, I think that being able to push out more spells is overall going to be more effective, given the actual amount that Det boosts your numbers per spell.

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I think that being able to push out more spells is overall going to be more effective, given the actual amount that Det boosts your numbers per spell.

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Except in actual practice, you're never going to be casting more heals than necessary or constantly (and you can only cast so many Malefic IIs due to MP costs), or shouldn't be, as pointed out by other posters. The only time SS is an actual increase is if you constantly cast for the entire fight, without pause, which is never going to actually happen due to MP/mechanic constrictions. The moment you must pause for mechanics, wait for damage that needs to be healed, move due to an AoE, wait for MP, or ask for Ballad, the additional SS loses all of it's effectiveness.

In this case, it's efficiency vs output, essentially; DET/CRIT increases efficiency (by increasing the amount healed given the same MP) and output (by increasing the amount healed) in all situations, whereas SS increases output (only during extended duration and under certain circumstances) and lowers efficiency (by using more casts to achieve the same result vs stacking DET/CRIT).

SS is even less effective during shorter fights compared to DET/CRIT, which maintain effectiveness, regardless of duration of the encounter.

(EDIT: Your numbers for Combust + Combust II DPS/Damage are still off, considerably. Combust lasts 18s and Combust II lasts 30s, and the total damage dealt by the two is considerably more than 2,000. While it's not the point of the discussion, if you don't actually know the numbers/terminology, you shouldn't really cite them.

Also, in reference to casting 219 spells vs 204, in the example you gave, the MP cost alone is nearly 80,000, assuming you only cast Benefic. Do you really think you'll be able to make the full use of 219 Benefics, during any given encounter, especially given the MP cost of casting that many? Or even 204, which is the original number without spell speed, that you cited.

Chances are that you'll never be casting 219 or even 204 GCD spells in a given encounter, so the "additional" spells you're able to cast in a given encounter, due to SS, is pretty much wasted from the beginning, and only applies as a benefit to your on-paper analysis.)