Paladins on Alex 3 Savage

Working on A3S with my static, wanted to ask some more experienced paladins for some advice and comparisons.

How much time are you able to spend in Sword Oath to max out dps? When do you feel confidant swapping to it in this fight and swapping back? Most of the healing requirement is raidwide but I don't want to needlessly stretch out our healers.

My static doesnt have a ninja at present (which might mean we can't get it down till we get more geared anyway) - have any groups either killed it or got really close without a Ninja and with a paladin MTing? It was very easy to maintain Sword Oath during safe points in A1S due to how dps split off for adds and such, but with all dps going balls to the wall from minute 1 the threat requirements are somewhat frustrating, especially without ninja threat transfer.

The base tank-and-spank nature of this fight with its hefty DPS requirements does make me wince due to the awkwardness of maintaining Sword Oath tanking, but I'd love some hints and stories from Paladins who have spent more time on it than me.

Because of the Halone debuff, a DRK in Grit only takes 11% less damage than a Paladin in Sword Oath. On top of that you can Sheltron every third cleave so there's no point where you actually have to be in Shield Oath to survive (well, except for tethers if you don't have Hallowed Ground or Sentinel ready), but if being in Sword Oath makes a healer drop out of Cleric Stance when they could be DPSing you have to think for yourself. I would say there really isn't such a time if nothing goes wrong (no deaths, etc.) and you manage your cooldowns well. Even when there is a point where healers need a little help, spending one GCD on Stoneskin or Clemency is often better than switching to Shield Oath and has a smaller DPS penalty.

In terms of overall hate, the NIN skill is a drop in the bucket, though it does really help if you pull in Sword Oath. Some DPS might pose a problem at the pull without a Ninja (they shouldn't if they use Quelling or their equivalent wisely), but the White Mage is more likely to actually rip hate. Divine Veil can let them skip an entire AoE heal so use it wisely.

While it is definitely possible to have a paladin main tank the first phases and meet the checks without a ninja, you will find that you have to spend quite a bit of time in shield oath at the start of the fight or use an very undesirable rotation in sword oath.

Alternatively, why not just have your other tank (WAR or DRK) main tank the first phase at least? This will increase overall raid dps quite a bit (as opposed to PLD starting as mt) and you are still able to keep up the Halone debuff when necessary or beneficial. I realize this is not what you wanted to hear based on your specific questions, but this is the path my group chose initially and have been clearing as3 for four weeks now without a ninja at all (we are now using double Warrior but our initial clears consisted of Warrior starting the fight as main tank with me as Paladin off-tanking).

Some hints I have for you as a paladin in this fight regardless of your tanking role: use stoneskin during the phase changes to help out healers (especially at the start of adds phase on both tanks) this will save them mp and provide some recovery assistance, if you practice the timing you will be able to Hallowed Ground the 3rd and 4th cleave during the hands dps check which can allow you to (more easily) stay in sword oath during the entire check, and tempered will is great for bypassing a wash away for a small dps gain and/or easier debuff passing.

It depends what your healers want to do.

The more time in shield oath = more time healers can DPS.

We basically solo heal the first 3 minutes of the fight, so even using Rage of Halone for every combo ender that isn't goring blade isn't enough threat in Sword Oath for what our healers are doing. So I stay in Shield Oath and do 2x RA -> Goring Blade combo's, you don't really ever need to use Rage of Halone in this fight if you start in Shield Oath. I end the pre-tornado phase at about 620 DPS, I think entire time Sword Oath might be 750 but our SCH ends the first section over 800 DPS also, so me losing 120 DPS to provide enough threat for the WHM to solo heal is worth the trade off.

Afterwards, I eat the first tether with Rampart/Oath, and the 2nd tether with Sentinel in Sword Oath, I start the last phase in Sword Oath. The next 2 tank rotations I tank in Shield Oath since the chance of death is higher in those sections just to be safe. If we win at enrage I am around 650 DPS, but since we are killing it quicker now I am ending the fight lower between 620-630 since the 6th rotation set the WAR tanks is abbreviated, so less Sword Oath time.

If I tanked the entire fight in Sword Oath, then its possible to end between 700-800 DPS or so, but I feel like you'd be dropping off your healer DPS in exchange so we found the median that worked for us.

Could be your weapon, but I think an examination of other things is in order first:

1.) What's your party comp?
2.) What's your opening rotation?
3.) What's your WHM doing during the opening?

Pld/War/sch/Whm/Mnk/Nin/Smn/Brd

Opening with Shield lob + SW + Circle of scorn and Rage. After that i do cycle of rage 2 times and i do cycle of dots and return to Rage.

For whm i wonder what he is doing. I think He heals too much. I'll take care about his spells next evening. But for the moment, i searhc infos to update my knowledge and abilities

You should have no issues if NIN is giving you proper opening aggro. WHM threat is scary if he is essentially solo healing the cleaves, but it is probably his fault; I see WHMs in streams use excessive C3s, which are most certainly not needed except for once between the second pimp smack and the third pimp smack. Everything else is M2. You could ask your NIN to Smokescreen your WHM during the pimp smacks if all else fails. It's probably not your fault in this case, I'd look towards the NIN and/or WHM if you're failing with a FoF opener with healthy amounts of RoH.

@OP

Opening with Sword Oath is suicide without a NIN since your DRG alone will overtake you if he's even halfway decent at a strong opener. Have your WAR open and Provoke it during his Pacification, he can just rotate SE/SP/Fell Cleave at that point (as he should) and you'll be fine. At worst skip some Royals.

You'll find once your healers get comfortable after oh your 300th pull the healing portion of this fight is as much of a joke as any other. You should most definitely stay in Sword Oath for virtually all you can. I recommend this order of tank swapping once you get to final phase:

Cascade #1 > Cascade #2, you keep it. Cascade #2 > 6 stomps, WAR keeps it (and does first stun on the Hand that spawns for you). 6 stomps > 3 cleaves on the MT, you keep it. 3 cleaves > Cascade #3, WAR has it. Repeat loop.

Use HG either on a pimp smack solo'd, or during Hand of Pain, although one healer will have damage down so it won't be much of a DPS increase to do it like that, then HG for a tether or a couple smacks in final phase to free up CDs for tethers. Sheltron a lot, keep RoH up, use Divine Veil during Sluice > Protean IMO and/or any other trouble areas, that part's the biggest hurdle to learn in all of final phase IMO, anything to help your group survive that without deaths while learning is the biggest help to learning the whole fight IMO since from that point until tornado phase the final phase is pretty easy. I assume you know how to do final phase tornado phase from videos but if not, tether always comes from bottom right, orb from bottom left, create strategy around that.

Ty for all the advices. The ninja never use his spell to manage hate. I'll ask him and take in account all ur advices ! Good luck :)

Our WAR pulls in Defiance because I had issues holding aggro without staying Shield Oath for longer than the duration of Unchained, basically, so it was a DPS gain to swap to our WAR pulling.

So, basically, I spend probably a grand total for 45s (maybe) in the whole fight in Shield Oath. I provoke and take the double hand cleaves and tethers in Shield Oath, and the rest I just Sword Oath. Sheltron is incredibly strong in this fight as far as tanking, and you should have a CD up for every single cleave you take.

@Wolfas - Not sure if you left out any buffs you use in your opener, but always pull with fight or flight as pld.

oh ofc i use flight or fight :). Sry i enver think about write it lol

What is your opener guys as Pld pls?

I don't do Savage on PLD but the optimal opener is : Shield Lob -> Fast Blade -> Riot Blade -> FoF when your GCD is at like 75% -> Goring Blade + CoS + SW then RoH combo x2, re-apply Goring, then Royal Authority combo. FoF should end right after your Royal Authority and you should have a second CoS between Savage Blade and Royal Authority. This makes you able to fit 2 Goring Blade, 2 Rage of Halone, 1 Royal Authority, 2 Circle of Scorn and 1 Spirits Within during your first FoF window. It does good damage and enough agro if your NIN is using Shadewalker on you right at the pull.

I see way too much PLD using FoF before Shield Lob, which is awful because its potency is even lower than Fast Blade's and it makes you lose 3 buffed GCDs for Shield Lob, Fast Blade, then Riot Blade, which is a loss compared to fitting an extra RA at the end.

This is exactly right. You should pot either before Riot Blade before you use FoF or you can Spirits Within right away (before FoF) then use your pot right before the second Royal Authority/Rage of Halone within FoF. Either way your Potion will buff a Goring Blade, CoS, and Spirits Within.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

IIt does good damage and enough agro if your NIN is using Shadewalker on you right at the pull.

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What happens if you dont have NiN? just curious.

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Originally Posted by Synestra

What happens if you dont have NiN? just curious.

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You're pretty much forced to do 1-2 full halone combos in shield oath depending on burstiness of your lineup before swapping to Sword Oath, or at least one full FoF-buffed Halone combo. You'll probably also need to slip in halones during your sword oath dps rotations. Ninjas are just a ridiculous boost to Paladin efficiency from a threat perspective. If we could generate that kind of threat in Sword Oath -without- a ninja you'd probably see more groups running them.

Our group actually runs a rather suboptimal PLD+DRK lineup without a Ninja, so I'm rather well versed on just how limited paladin threat can be when trying to push DPS - even a paladin with a ninja will have DPS riding really close to their threat levels if they're doing their max dps Sword Oath rotation, so one without a Ninja and with no 10% slashing debuff has to really push threat like a madwoman to stay ahead. I definitely end up spending a much larger time in Shield Oath than most of the heavily progressed paladins, though thankfully we seem to be getting by nicely by shifting a bit more of the dps onto the healers.

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Originally Posted by Sapphidia

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Kinda figured out it would be something like that, NiN's got some neat and unique utility in this expansion(dat upcoming 24man trolling tho).

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Originally Posted by Wolfas

What is your opener guys as Pld pls?

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Always has been FoF > Lob > CoS > Flash (all while running to and through the boss) > Halone combo (once in front) never had hate issues and have been able to drop out of shield after a 2nd Halone combo

Hi, everyone! This is Sapphidia's off-tank, Sakura here. Just a bit more info, we've gotten past the hand phase and are working on the tornado now, and fortunately, with a month's worth of gear in our hands (and finally some DPS random drops), we've got the damage needed to clear this fight. But, I'm still wondering as a Dark Knight, well, as a tank in general, how to maximize damage during the hand phase. I feel like until they do equal concentration I could fit in a combo or two without Grit, but when would be the best time to do so, if at all?

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Originally Posted by Kaisinel

Always has been FoF > Lob > CoS > Flash (all while running to and through the boss) > Halone combo (once in front) never had hate issues and have been able to drop out of shield after a 2nd Halone combo

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Activating FoF right away is kind of wasteful.

Start with whatever oath you prefer:
Lob > FB > RB > FoF > GB > CoS > Swipe or Fracture > FB > SB > RoH > FB > SB > RA > FB > RB > FoF > GB > CoS > Swipe or Fracture (FoF wears off)

Not like I have much experience in end game now as pld, but I think the suggested opener for using FoF around goring is only with shade walker. FoF only works on the first hit of goring/SoC prior to dot application, right?

@Freyyy - Is there a reason you suggested using two ogcd in a row? Does this allow you to fit more into the opener by getting them on cooldown faster?

The only reason I ever activated FoF right away was for a lead in threat, not dmg. Not to say the dmg part doesn't help, but the longer your wind up time is for threat, the faster the gap closes. You can almost say "shield lob" is a waste in dps, tp, and puts you on gcd (ogcd gap closers ftw). Sadly face pulling isn't much of an alternative.

Its not much, but I personally use bloodbath in my opener, since the dot ticks heal you for a small amount.

1. FoF affects DoT ticks as well. That's why if you want to maximize your dps as PLD, you may also want to use a STR potion in your rotation.
2. If the DPS is really good, you may really opt to use FoF to your threat generating combos to secure threat. Hopefully, SE fixes this issue.
3. DoT ticks doesn't trigger Bloodbath.

Oh man. What I had been doing was:

FB>[FoF+CoS]>RB>[SW]>GB>RAx2>FB>RB>[CoS]>GB>FB>[FoF drops off]
I'd mix 1 Shield Swipe between GB's if I'm tanking. Now I just feel silly for missing out on a third RA under FoF. :0

Also, FoF boosts physical damage dealt - dot ticks are unaspected physical damage, so they're still buffed by FoF. I even just tested it to confirm it for myself. And last I heard, the self-heals from Bloodbath don't help enmity generation any (which is dumb), but the health regen IS nice. It's not a bad thing to do, at all, since it doesn't slow down the pain train.


What little I tanked A3, I was forced into Shield Oath by healers who would threaten pulling off me even with 3 out of 4 possible RoH before hand AND one after that also should have been RA. It's insane. Wasn't even a solo-heal. Though I tried to suggest WAR pull and then I swap in, but they poo-poo'd me saying I should just MT. I was around 530-550 through wipes to hop with 100% Shield Oath uptime at i191 with 3 strength accs (they refused to let me drop it even for hop so I just held FoF for it.).

@Rawker - That's interesting, because I used to think buffs like FoF did increase dot dmg. Perhaps I'm confusing it with debuffs that lower resistances to certain damage types.

All I recall is that the initial hit is a different damage type than the dot itself. FoF is kinda annoying because its only a physical damage increase, and not a straight attack power increase; like berserk. This doesn't make much sense to me, since you can't cross class FoF. Raging strikes makes sense to be "increases dmg dealt", since casters use it as well.

Hmm, I'll have to do some testing with bloodbath then. I guess I could do a blanket test by using bloodbath, applying dots and turning away from the target (preventing auto attacks from interfering).

Honestly though, the only way I used to be able to build enough threat while in SwO was with FoF. Not having it makes it quite difficult.

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Originally Posted by Xyphon

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Using 2 oGCDs (SW and CoS) in the same GCD is just for the sake of having SW coming back faster and a little bit more of burst damage, but don't do that if your latency makes you delay your GCD (which happens). Tho on EU servers I don't have any issues with PLD oGCDs because their animations are quick. If you prefer to use 1 oGCD at a time, use first CoS because this way it will come back before your FoF ends and makes you able to fit 2 CoS during your FoF window. SW's CD prevents you to do the same with it.
DoTs are affected by damage increasing buffs and vulnerability debuffs. What doesn't affect DoTs is slashing/piercing/blunt debuffs because DoTs are unaspected physical damage. But anything like FoF, Raging Strikes, Trick Attack, or even Gobwalker's vulnerability up debuff all affect DoT ticks.
I'm 100% sure that Bloodbath isn't triggered by DoT ticks either.

Personally I start AS3 in Sword Oath (yay for Ninja) -> FoF/Lob/Cos/Spirits -> RoH -> RoH -> Goring -> Royal -> Royal -> RoH rotate stuff accordingly and then I swap to Shield when it switches to Hand. Haven't had any issues unless I fumble something right at the start.