45 second 15% Balance versus 75 second 10% Balance ... which is more effective?

Just a bit of curiousity now that The Balance has been extended to 30 seconds. With Royal Road that can either be extended to 60 seconds, or enhanced to be a 15% buff instead of the baseline 10% buff. With Time Dilation both types can be further extended by 15 seconds. Which brings me to my question. Which is more effective? Assuming the DPS you cast it on is performing well, and conditions are normal.

I suppose this is a math question lol ... though I know certain situations would prove one or the other to be more efficient.

Which one do you favour?

Dunno, without giving it much though i'd say 45s 15% in A1S and A3S (never tryed A4S) and 75s 10% on A2S.

In both A1 and A3 there's a lot of burst phases followed by down times (running after the adds, Oppressors jumping, Liquid metamorphosing, replacing your self for the links etc etc) during which the buffs are kinda wasted.
A2 being a pure roflomgbbq non stop, i could see a 75s buff being effective full time.

The 75-10% one does provide more overall damage, but that's assuming you are DPSing for at least 68 seconds.

It's also assuming no downtime. If there is any downtime then the 45-15% is better every time

Rule of thumbs (that I use anyway):
Enhanced has a CD value of 0.5
Extended has a CD value of 1.0
Expanded has a CD value of 1~1.5

Enhanced adds 50% effect, but does not have the same effec tif you were to play two of the same cards
Extender doubles the duration, so it's basically the same as two cards in a row
Expanded has 200% efficiency (but takes 2 draws) if you hit all the DPS jobs with it. The rest would be a bonus (but not of the same value)

As for practical value, depends on the use and situation

It's all situational really. In a raid, the AE version is almost always superior. The only exception is when people are too far spread out to hit most of the raid. In smaller groups or when people are spread out too much, the enhanced is superior if you can land it in sync with their CD's, while extended is better when you have 75 sec to beat on the mobs and have no major CD's up (or when they come off CD after 40~ sec).

With that said, you also need to take into account the cards your burning (unless you're just talking about pre fight prep). To get enhanced, you need to burn bole or balance. These are two of the three most important cards ast has, and in general it's not worth burning either of them during a fight save certain circumstances.

Extended, being ewer/spire, can be burned more often. However, it's still highly situational. For long, drawn out fights with few to no phase shifts it's best to just use them as you pull them, so long as the fight didn't just start or people aren't already topped off. For shorter fights they aren't very necessary and can be RR'd freely.

For expanded, arrow is the other card of the top three best cards, and should be used as you pull it. However, spear is the polar opposite and is almost entirely RR fodder. It's only real use is to be used on yourself before using Luminiferous Aether, and maybe on a tank/healer if you can coordinate well and hit them before they use CD's. Otherwise it's crap, and pretty much useless for dps.

In short, there's really no simple answer since there are so many variables. If you are asking simply for pre fight purposes, I go for enhanced in 4 mans, and expanded in 8 mans. Otherwise, you have to weigh all of the above in the encounter you're in.

Edit: Actually, my mind might be on the old RR system still. I keep getting my RR cards mixed up, but the principle's the same.

The best option is the one you draw first, LOL.

If you draw a spear or an arrow, you put it on RR, and then you luckily draw a balance, you get 10% for 10sec.
If you draw a balance and spread it, you have the chance to draw spear or arrow to get the same effect or you can luckily draw another balance or a bole and RR it to get 15% for 45sec.

When you're an AST, you can't neglect your buffs hoping for the best one. You have shuffle to help, but you have to draw EVERY 30sec and decide quickly what you'll do with it. Everytime you waste your time waiting for a better buff, you loose the chance to buff someone.

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Originally Posted by Eudyptes

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What has Spire got to do with Luminiferous Aether

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Originally Posted by randysquirrel

What has Spire got to do with Luminiferous Aether

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Was a typo. Was supposed to be spear. Figured that would have been obvious.

Ah, I suppose I let a cat out of the bag regarding the whole 'situational' conversation. In my opinion using an Expanded Balance on the entire 8-man party (assuming it hits everyone) is the best thought if you're able to utilize it properly. But then we get into other situational uses of the card system. But this topic was just meant in regards to enhancing or extending a Balance card on a single individual, assuming they were playing to their fullest and the situation would allow them to make good use of whichever full duration.

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Originally Posted by Nikoshae

But this topic was just meant in regards to enhancing or extending a Balance card on a single individual, assuming they were playing to their fullest and the situation would allow them to make good use of whichever full duration.

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To that I just say refer back to the first part of my post. Enhanced if they are able to get all their CDs in within the 45 sec, or if there is going to be a phase shift/some other reason they need to stop attacking after 45+ sec. Extended for everything else/by default if you have no idea who's doing what.

Also note that even if there is downtime, enhanced can still beat extended.

If there's like 10 seconds of downtime, there must still be 63 seconds of battle (including that 10 seconds that you don't attack) in order to surpass enhanced

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Originally Posted by Roxas_Andrade

The best option is the one you draw first, LOL.

If you draw a spear or an arrow, you put it on RR, and then you luckily draw a balance, you get 10% for 10sec.
If you draw a balance and spread it, you have the chance to draw spear or arrow to get the same effect or you can luckily draw another balance or a bole and RR it to get 15% for 45sec.

When you're an AST, you can't neglect your buffs hoping for the best one. You have shuffle to help, but you have to draw EVERY 30sec and decide quickly what you'll do with it. Everytime you waste your time waiting for a better buff, you loose the chance to buff someone.

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I would never sacrifice an arrow, that's silly.

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Originally Posted by Ashelia_Ferron

Also note that even if there is downtime, enhanced can still beat extended.

If there's like 10 seconds of downtime, there must still be 63 seconds of battle (including that 10 seconds that you don't attack) in order to surpass enhanced

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How would enhanced beat extended in any situation? The only time enhanced would beat extended is if half of the extended duration is wasted.

For example: 1000 damage per second, over a course of 60 seconds that's 60.000 damage.
With enhanced Balance (15%, 30s) that's 64.500 damage/60 seconds (bonus damage 4500)
With extended Balance (10%, 60s) that's 66.000 damage/60 seconds (bonus damage 6000)

So let's add in Time dilation and Celestial Opposition:
With enhanced Balance (15%, 50s) that's 127.500 damage/120 seconds (bonus damage 7500)
With extended Balance (10%, 80s) that's 128.000 damage/120 seconds (bonus damage 8000)

Enhanced will never outperform the other royal road effects (see my previous post on the first page) under any circumstances.

Now here's the thing: Effectiveness is different story. A3 savage being the prime example.

Most fights have a lot of downtime, i would say 15% for 45 is better, i cant tell you how many times a balance card was used on someone only to go idle because mechanics took over.

Best answer - stuff is situational.

Extended Balance will give you more overall output than Enhanced Balance but if you need more output faster, Enhanced will give you that. If a mechanic is going to occur within 45s that causes a boss to go invulnerable for a decent portion of time (Oppressor jumping), then a decent part of Extended will be lost and Enhanced will be better.

It's up to the AST to determine what is "best" at the given situation. It's one of the unconscious rewards for playing the class well.

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Originally Posted by Blood-Aki

Most fights have a lot of downtime, i would say 15% for 45 is better, i cant tell you how many times a balance card was used on someone only to go idle because mechanics took over.

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That same downtime has effect on the enhanced balance, far worse than on an extended. If there's a 10s downtime (A3), that 10 second lost on enhanced has a bigger impact on extended

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

That same downtime has effect on the enhanced balance, far worse than on an extended. If there's a 10s downtime (A3), that 10 second lost on enhanced has a bigger impact on extended

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Well that was an example, of how most of the time enchanced would be better, but Ghishlain made a valid point, as it's up to the AST to determine the best situation to use cards, like for example A1S the 1st 90 seconds an extended would would be better. but after split since people are dealing with adds, avoiding lasers and resin bombs enchanced would be better, the list goes on, you just have to choose the best situation.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

Enhanced will never outperform the other royal road effects (see my previous post on the first page) under any circumstances.

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You've completely disregarded what I said in your example. Your coming from a place where damage output is constant and not taking burst into account.

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Originally Posted by Eudyptes

You've completely disregarded what I said in your example. Your coming from a place where damage output is constant and not taking burst into account.

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Because for one: I wasn't quoting you.
Secondly: Read the last sentence of that post
And lastly:

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Originally Posted by Nikoshae

Assuming the DPS you cast it on is performing well, and conditions are normal.

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Edit:
More edit incoming

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

Because for one: I wasn't quoting you.

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Quoting me is irrelevant when you're making an absolute statement.

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Secondly: Read the last sentence of that post

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During burst Enhanced will outperform. It is also more effective, but my point was that your absolute doesn't work here.

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And lastly

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Burst is normal conditions. I'm not talking about fights where there are extra damage phazes. I'm talking about standard dps burst. Which I do every fight on my nin. When I pop B4B/IR/TA, then go down my rotation and weave in all my oGCD dps skills, I should get more out of that 15% dmg buff than 10% which lingers after everything wears off but doesn't last long enough for most of it to come back off CD.

Not all classes burst the same though, so this may not be the case for everyone.

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Originally Posted by Eudyptes

Quoting me is irrelevant when you're making an absolute statement.

During burst Enhanced will outperform. It is also more effective, but my point was that your absolute doesn't work here.



Burst is normal conditions. I'm not talking about fights where there are extra damage phazes. I'm talking about standard dps burst. Which I do every fight on my nin. When I pop B4B/IR/TA, then go down my rotation and weave in all my oGCD dps skills, I should get more out of that 15% dmg buff than 10% which lingers after everything wears off but doesn't last long enough for most of it to come back off CD.

Not all classes burst the same though, so this may not be the case for everyone.

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The OP asked for "normal" conditions. The following would be part of "normal conditions":
Not knowing when to obtain the card you want
Not knowing when every single party members buffs are available again
Not knowing if particular mechanics targets them that prevents them from dealing damage for a certain period of time
Not having control of transition timings
Not having control on when others use their abilities
Not having control over mechanics of an encounter (that may or may not stagger their damage output for a moment)

While some buffs are multiplicative of each other, there are too many factors to include burst as "normal". The only kind of burst you can accurately predict would be the opening pull: The entire team goes all out the first 30 seconds and use everything they have. For the rest of the fight? CDs whenever they are up. Unless you find it reasonable to know exactly when every party member pops particular buffs and you can somehow magically draw an enhanced balance the moment right as they pop one or more buff. I believe it's more "normal" to assume the baseline increase. However, even if you don't, the contrary is also true: If you draw an enhanced balance card in a "non-burst" moment, extended would be more effective. And consider that buffs are longer on CD than they actually have effect.

So here's one thing you seem to like repeating: "Absolute". Yes, it is absolute, but that does not mean it's the final conclusion. I didn't take the baseline effect of the cards for nothing. The "absolute" increase would be 10% or 15% according to the Royal Road. But the relative increase may vary. And as stated before, being relative has so many factors involved, it's easier to explain someone the "absolute" effect of the cards. Which I finished my post with this particular sentence:

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

Now here's the thing: Effectiveness is different story.

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If we were to include other variables such as card value, draw value, draw waste, royal road waste, it's impossible to determine or explain it to someone in more objective perspective ("Relative", remember?)

So here's a start if we were to include everything else, aside from Balance:
There are a set number of cards you can draw with each encounter, so let's give each draw a value of 1 (exact card values are impossible to determine)
Royal Road has the following effects: +50% effect, +100% duration, -50% effect but 15y radius effect
As royal road consumes cards, each value for their effect respectively would be: 0.5, 1.0, 0.5~1.5. Expanded Royal Road assuming you hit the specific jobs with the particular card
Why 0.5 for Enhanced? Because you waste 1 card to increase the effectiveness of another card. Two cards would hold two effects for 100% while with Royal Road you only have one card with 150%
If we were to only consider Balance to Enhance, the chances to enhance a Balance is 16,7% with each draw and only if you have a Balance spread. However with Extended Royal Road you have a 33,3% chance to perform an extended balance under the same circumstances. You're twice more likely to extend a Royal Road rather than enhancing it. There's also the part where you may lose some healer or tank DPS by losing out on 30 seconds worth of mitigation from Bole (assuming you don't Royal Road Balance). Assuming they're proactive enough

I could write an entire essay out here for the OP to read if he really wants to know, but why would I if the previous post concerning this issue would tell the story in short without the details he didn't even ask for? So I'll stand by the other post I made as explains it to the OP the baseline of it with a disclaimer at the end.

Edit:
Edit2:
Actually, not relevant

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

The OP asked for "normal" conditions.

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What I said was under normal conditions. How are you not understanding that? Ast is by default a complex class, but it's not insanely complex. You don't need to keep track of everyone's CD's, just the top dps's CDs since they are the one who will get the most out of balance to begin with. You don't even have to know all their CD timers, just certain patterns which can almost always be given away by keeping track on 1 CD. Most dps rotations in this game do not sync up 100%, but there is almost always repeating patterns in the rotation that is easy enough to make mental notes of. Most of it can done at a glance even in pugs (assuming they aren't hitting buttons at random), and is made significantly easier if it's not a pug and you can communicate with your group.

Furthermore, there needs to be an assumption that there is at least some type of card control to even have this discussion. Most people utilize spread (at least I know I do) to get some form of control over exactly these situations in raids.

I also hate to break it to you, but knowing fight mechanics are also normal. Throwing out cards willy-nilly on CD isn't always the best tactic. If you know there is a semi-random element that will take people out of the fight, it's better to hold the card for a few seconds to make sure the person targeted isn't the one you plan to use the card on.

Feel free to write up all the essays you want, but they will remain wrong if you only look at the buffs in a vacuum.

Edit: I think the root of the problem here is that OP is asking for "normal" in a class where normal doesn't exist. I mean, it's an rng mechanic. Ast requires more knowledge of the specifics of other classes if you want to min/max to this degree. You need to know who benefits from what the most and when, while applying that to real time situations.

If you are not going to min/max than this point is moot, and you just need to know who likely benefits the most from dps cards in general and just use whatever you get when you get it.

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Originally Posted by Eudyptes

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If you have no idea or control over what the others are doing, then how does your "burst" argument hold water?

As for whatever control you mentioned, spread aside, you have no control over any mechanic or transitions. I never mentioned you have no idea when they'll happen - Unlike the other points mentioned before. Spreading cards aside from Balance for that particular transition, for example, is the only control you have. But this comes with even more factors which I will omit for this post. As for the indirect insult from you pointing out that I don't learn fights, I'll overlook that for now.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

If you have no idea or control over what the others are doing, then how does your "burst" argument hold water?

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What are you talking about? I literally just told you how to have an idea of what others are doing. Understand how x dps class works and pay attention to their buffs. Most dps classes have patterns they abide by, including when it comes to CDs. If you are using spread on balance whenever it's up (specifically to hold for an RR version), you can decide which card to burn as you draw based on an educated guess as to where they are in said pattern (by counting B4B's and/or paying attention to the fight for example).

If you are just going to burn whatever comes up first, or just alternate RR and draw, then this topic is moot cause it doesn't matter which is better at specific times.

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As for whatever control you mentioned, spread aside, you have no control over any mechanic or transitions. I never mentioned you have no idea when they'll happen - Unlike the other points mentioned before. Spreading cards aside from Balance for that particular transition, for example, is the only control you have. But this comes with even more factors which I will omit for this post.

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You don't have direct control over mechanics, but you do have control over knowing when something is coming and preparing for it. That's actually something I had to learn on nin early so that I didn't have my TA CD sync'd poorly with mechanics.

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As for the indirect insult from you pointing out that I don't learn fights, I'll overlook that for now.

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I think you're reading far too much into something that was never implied.

I did split up the list in "do not know" and "do not control"

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

I did split up the list in "do not know" and "do not control"

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My point was that in either case there is enough that you can know that you can plan around it/for it appropriately.

Either way this is, for the most part, an argument where neither of us are right or wrong because trying to define "normal" on an rng system is inherently flawed. The only thing I truly disagree with you about is extended always being more potent than enhanced, as during burst enhanced will give you more bang for your buck. With that said, I did mention back on page 1 that extended will be better more often. So if you absolutely have to choose one or the other to go with all the time, it should be extended.

Well, really it should be expanded 95% of the time.

I'll just drop this here with a summary and go to bed. I'll let you draw the conclusion here.

http://i.imgur.com/qFFxkTn.png

Simplified damage to average damage rather than depending on rotation. Used dragoon as base for buffs. Differences on picture are as follows:
With both time buffs
Without b4b: 9.49 DPS difference
With b4b: 1.03 DPS difference

With only Time dilation
Without b4b: 11.07 DPS difference
with b4b: 2.61 DPS difference

Without either
Without b4b: 15.81 DPS difference
with b4b: 7.35 DPS difference

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

I would never sacrifice an arrow, that's silly.

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The OP asked wich effect on Balance is better, I just answered based on that.
(But if you have a melee party, maybe using a spear is better than an arrow, because the arrow would drain TP faster. Even if you use the arrow on yourself, you can get OoM faster too. All cards are situational, you have to adapt yourself to optimize whatever card you draw. If the goal was to improve DPS using Balance - which is the main topic of this thread - and I had a Balance on the spread, I would RR an arrow to throw an extended Balance on a melee fighter. Or would throw the arrow on a caster and balance on the fighter. It always depends on the situation)

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

I'll just drop this here with a summary and go to bed. I'll let you draw the conclusion here.

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So, you notice how the gap gets significantly less when B4B is involved? Now consider that B4B is not the only CD or oGCD skill being used and the gap should not only get closer, but even swap which buff is better. Also consider that not all jobs are created equal, and some will benefit more from enhanced, while others less.

I do agree that most of the time extended is better. I said as much before we even started debating. I just don't agree that it's better "under any circumstances".

Situationally dependent, I'd say. On a push or DPS check, I'd use the shorter duration with the higher DPS boost. When you're doing regular DPS to whittle the enemy down, especially if you have to run between groups of mobs, I'd use the longer duration.

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Originally Posted by Eudyptes

So, you notice how the gap gets significantly less when B4B is involved? Now consider that B4B is not the only CD or oGCD skill being used and the gap should not only get closer, but even swap which buff is better. Also consider that not all jobs are created equal, and some will benefit more from enhanced, while others less.

I do agree that most of the time extended is better. I said as much before we even started debating. I just don't agree that it's better "under any circumstances".

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The gap gets bigger once time dilation and/or celestial opposition isn't involved either. And this is only in case of dragoon where blood for blood is at 30% and available rather quickly. If we to consider raging strikes instead (bard, black mage, summomer, machinist), which has a 180s CD, the chances are much greater that this won't be up at all during the duration of either.

So even if the gap gets small with just blood for blood, enhanced doesn't necessarily get better. Especially if you cannot extend the duration of it if you used it for other purposes. With openers, perhaps, where everything including potions are thrown out. But in this case expanded may or may not do better if you were to include other factors like hypercharge, requiem and/or trick attack or other forms of party-wide damage increasers.

In the situation where everthng is available; multiple buffs, time dilation and celestial opposition. Yes, enhanced might outperform extended. But this is relative with a ton of ifs attached to it.