I feel there is a simple way to fix a few of the issues PvP has been having and that is making the gear more of a desirable and useful gear set. The max obtainable PvP gear at the moment as we all know is i180. it does have a +30 morale on it that rounds all of its stats to i210 only when in wolves den. This is also arguably SOME of the best gear for Frontlines which has a i150 cap on it so everything is synced down anyway. The PvP community at large has many different reasons for their pursuit of this max level and the gear that goes with it; however the PvE group at large has no intrest in this because it wont help them. What if in future PvP updates the gear was the same lvl or ten under the max PvE gear ilvl that way it would also be useful outside of just the wolves den and therefore many people that dont play PvP now might be more motivated to give it a try.
It might even be interesting to have a Frontlines gear set and a wolves den gear set, one with morale and one without?
PvP Gear Thoughts - Lets hear your Ideas
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08-27-2015, 09:43 PMdistant-cubixPvP Gear Thoughts - Lets hear your Ideas
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08-28-2015, 08:08 AMBeckett
They would need to rework the way the Wolf Marks system functions. Right now, all new introduced gear is only available to players with the highest PVP ranks. Even if they did release good PVE gear, only people who were already into PVP would have access to it. And if they released it and didn't lock it behind PVP ranks, then the current PVP playerbase would riot.
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08-28-2015, 09:12 AMFebrus
I'd really appreciate if SE provided more things for our wolves marks to be used on, in general. There should be additional vendors at the wolves den that allows us to use our marks for PvP specific housing items, bardings for our chocobos, minions, mounts, etc. Let's face it, as it is now, after rank 50 you get your gear and you just keep collecting wolfs marks that sit in your inventory and do nothing. If they give a reason for us to keep collecting wolfs marks, people would have a reason to keep playing PvP.
As for gear... I definitely think they should add more PvP gear sets. Specific ones for different game modes would be cool, but tricky to get given que times for anything other than seize are absurd. At the very least, there should be a gear set between ilvls 110 and 180. Right now, there is a great drought between ranks ~35-50. You get nothing for progressing through them. ilvl 110 gear is utterly useless, and ilvl 180 gear is un-equipable, so you're just pushing along with no rewards for your efforts. They should add a gear set (even if just for glamour) between those ranks so that its less of a pointless grind.
I'm not sure about PvE gear sets. In one way, I like the idea, because more options are better than less, and I don't think anyone will say no to more gear options. On the other hand, though, PvE'ers already get more rewards for playing PvP than PvP'ers do, and it attracts the ABSOLUTE WORST KINDS OF PLAYERS into the game mode. Casual PvP'ers and eso farmers are ruining the experience for the rest of us, and adding PvE gear to PvP shops might make that worse. IF they did it, then I'd say they'd have to keep the gear rank locked to weed out the casual players. It wouldn't be fair to the rest of us if they could just sit idle in matches, farming up their marks without any effort, so they could buy their gear while the actual PvP'ers continue their seemingly endless grind that, currently, has almost no real rewards. -
08-28-2015, 07:29 PMAxelDH
If it had been ilvl 190, equivalent to Alex Normal mode, then It would have been quite useful. But any higher than that would've been overpowered!
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08-28-2015, 09:29 PMStupiduglytaru
There definitely needs to be i140 i150 like we had in old frontline.
Personally I don't really care for more reward, after all I play pvp to beat real people not carry out pve tasks.
I just wish they ddidn't skimp out on our rank 50 stuff, mnk looks like ninja, drg looks like tanks lolwut.......etc
That being said my lord mnk weapon is the best looking in the whole game! -
08-29-2015, 01:52 AMCidelWell, gear bought with wolf marks has been the absolute cheapest way to steadily level my desynth skill.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
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08-29-2015, 02:31 AMNektulos-Tuor
If they removed the rank requirement on ilvl180 gear it would be a step in the right direction. Currently it seems to be a good idea to keep new people out. Nobody wants to fight anyone new it seems.
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08-29-2015, 03:00 AMFebrusDidn't think of that lol. So, PvE'ers get rewards, and Disciples of the hand get rewards... but PvP'ers get the shaft. Yup. Seems legit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cidel
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08-29-2015, 03:08 AMFebrusNobody wants to fight with anyone new, because new people don't seem to want to fight. They'd rather just sit down idle at the beginning of a match and safely farm their eso bonus without actually doing anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor
No matter how you slice it, removing rank req for ilvl 180 gear would be a step in the wrong direction. 1st, the ilvl180 gear, despite being not overly useful now, is set up for wolves den 3.0. Removing the req for it would screw with that game mode before it is even released. 2. As nice as it would be to wear it, the grind is one of the only reasons PvP'ers keep playing. Don't get me wrong, the grind is WAY TOO DAMN LONG. Exp comes in way too slow and there's no way to speed it up by doing well or getting better. That is a problem that should definitely be addressed, but the grind should still be there. SE rarely puts in new game modes to PvP. There's no new content to satisfy the players who like to competitively play against other players. No matter how much fun PvP'ers find PvP, eventually, they're gonna get board. Gear grinds and satisfying fights are the only way to keep them from leaving the que line. -
08-29-2015, 04:31 AMdistant-cubix
I don't like the idea of removing the rank requirements either. However I do like the idea of expanding our player base.While we all have experienced the dreaded PUG match where everyone is just in it for the eso and folks are off doing their own thing spinning in the corner or something, getting people interested is part of it. While some might just be free food for the other team,"in theory" they will get better and become helpful at some point. I also really like the idea to adding PvP housing items or barding or even items needed for crafting that are purchased from Wolf marks, or something like that...
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08-29-2015, 07:20 AMFebrusI agree. Strict PvE rewards haven't done anything beneficial to the PvP community, but I think expanding the wolf marks system is a good idea, especially if the rewards are tied, at least in some way, to good performances.That could be as simple as rank locked items (ie. you can't buy this barding or these crafting supplies or gear or w/e without reaching ranks x y and z respectively), or it could be as complex as achievement based rewards. That old guy in Gridania is nice and all, but there should be a field officer in each GC that rewards your performance in PvP by offering you specific gear for a price, even if it's just for glamour.Quote:
Originally Posted by distant-cubix
As far as getting more people engaged in actually playing PvP, I think more rewards for playing well would encourage people to actually participate instead of standing on the sidelines. It's been mentioned in other threads, but, besides an expansion of the wolfs mark system, they should offer in game bonuses for playing well (ie, bonus exp for fighting within range of nodes / or simply tying your end game exp bonus to your final score would work. People might give a damn about the game mode if they have more incentive to actually pay attention to their score). -
08-29-2015, 09:43 AMdistant-cubix
While there is certainly merit to the idea of trying an end of game bonus to the score earned, I can see some immediate flaw or difficulties in implementing this, one suchexample might be in seal rock someone who stays to defend might not have as many kills but they played an important role. If everyone was after the points themselves some of the needed teamwork might evaporate. Not as related but the whole node capture thing can be annoying as well, when you're racing to get the credit and someone else gets the capture /sulk
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08-29-2015, 11:02 AMFebrusOh, that's not what I meant. I mean your overall team score, out of 800. Ie) If your team won the round with 800 pts. Then your personal exp boost scales with that score. If you lost the round with an abysmal 200 pts, tough luck. Your exp bonus is tied to 200 pts. Your team should have fought harder for the win. As for node captures, I don't think you'd get points for scoring the node so much as fighting within range of a node. Think similar to the old capture game mode. There's a big circle on your map, red or blue, fight within it and you can get an exp modifier. People who stand in a corner and do nothing, get no exp multiplier. Between the two options, though, the first would be easier to implement, so I think that would be the best option. There'd still likely be people who would stand around and do nothing, but if they hurt the team by not cooperating to try to get a win, they'd also be hurting themselves, and the team would get super ticked off. Booting afk or unhelpful players would become a more common occurrence. So, you're left with two options: help your team to win, or get the boot.Quote:
Originally Posted by distant-cubix
One thing that I would absolutely NOT want to see is it being tied to selfish personal performances, mostly because of Dps / Tank classes. Giving a healer an exp bonus based on how much dmg they healed would probably be okay, but how would that work for tanks? Dmg sponge? Suicide would be a tank's standard operating procedure from that point on. Dps would be even worse. If they got exp bonuses off of kills, they'd just say screw the objectives and run wild. No, these kinds of exp bonuses would never fly, except for maybe in slaughter. -
08-29-2015, 12:32 PMBeckettOoooh, I like this idea. It would put an end to (or at least help) the problem of teams going, "GG we lost the game might as well just give up." a minute into the match. There is nothing worse than a team that just stops trying. At least with this method, the losing team would keep fighting, if only to get a better team score and a bigger EXP bonus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
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08-29-2015, 01:22 PMnickx
It's probably too late to implement this (maybe next expansion), but I think the purpose of PvP gear should have only been for glamour purposes, while keeping the PvP rank required to unlock it. The purpose of PvP gear in general still remains almost pointless with ilvl syncing. Instead, players could jump into PvP using their PvE gear, and their motivation to PvP (other than for fun and future rankings) would be to obtain the unique glamour gear, titles, more action points for skills, and perhaps more mounts/cosmetics that could be bought with wolf marks. This is somewhat borrowing concepts from WoW's future PvP system, but I feel like it removes the uselessness of PvP gear, and with ilvl syncing being so low, obtaining PvE gear above that ilvl shouldn't be an issue for all players.
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08-29-2015, 01:55 PMYaichiro
PvP gears as they are now are only useful for wolves den even though it's less popular compared to front lines.
The idea that everyone are equals on front line is not appealing at least to me since there is no actual reward for me to play many matches in front lines (apart from mounts).
My suggestion on PvP gears is to make players 10% stronger than those using PvE gears in front lines. -
08-29-2015, 05:21 PMDimitriiI don't get why people keep wanting advantages over other players in pvp. The jobs themselves arent balanced relative to each other, we have this ridiculous element of rng in the latest pvp mode, and we even have the battle high/fever system in the past 2 pvp modes which gives players massive advantages over those without it (though at least thats tolerable since its a reward for actually having skill). What is so fun about steamrolling people with inferior gear to you? I dont understand. Its like wars who celebrate killing a non tank one on one in a fight. Beating someone who you clearly have a definitive advantage over makes the victory feel so hollow (this is part of the reason I never use war in frontline even though I have it and just roll drg). But idk maybe its just me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yaichiro
They do need to make the pvp gear more relevant but that should be in the wolves den where the real PVP'rs are and not in a casual mode like frontlines which is basically the crystal tower version of pvp. Make wolves den more attractive and relevant again like having rankings and tracking individual stats in there and stuff with maybe different leagues the highest of which you need high lvl pvp gear with customized materia melds to be competitive in. -
08-29-2015, 08:36 PMYaichiroWhen all players can achieve such rewards it's not called an advantage but a tangible achievement. Think about levels and how you need to work your way to lvl 60. By following your opinion then a new player should be given a char with lvl 60 without the daunting work of leveling up but it doesn't work that way which is the reason people are asking for a relevant rewards in frontlines especially when wolves den is kinda empty.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dimitrii
Right now someone setting a foot in frontlines is relatively as good as someone had 100 matches simply because skill is extremely less important in frontlines which relies on RNG and having the "right" alliance. -
08-30-2015, 02:55 AMFebrusGlad you agree. I know exactly what you mean, and it's that kind of thing that gave me the idea. I've had teams that are only 100pts down and automatically decide to flip table and call it a failure of a game. It's like they lose one skirmish and suddenly the world is ending or something. Worse yet, that attitude seems to be highly contagious. When your GC is on a winning streak it's not so bad, but there are some days it's like pulling teeth to get the downers to not corrupt the whole GC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beckett
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08-30-2015, 03:03 AMFebrusI'm not so sure that it would be too late. I mean, if SE can add entire dungeon zones and expand existing maps (mor Dhona, being the most notable one) with patches I'm sure they could make menu and vendor adjustments no problem. The thing is, though, I don't think PvP gear is quite that useless. For one, Wolves den requires a lot more attention to stats and materia bonuses, and, with the next PvP patch for the updated wolves den matches, we might find that PvP gear becomes substantially more important. Also, the secondary stats of PvP gear are FAR AND AWAY more useful for PvP than the PvE sets.Quote:
Originally Posted by nickx
I do think that they should add more glamour sets, but I kind of like the idea of being properly rewarded for your efforts in PvP with armour that actually has a function. -
08-30-2015, 04:15 AMDimitriiThis is a pretty bad comparison here. Comparing pvp to pve makes no sense but if you wanna go there anyway that's like saying every dungeon/trial/raid in DF needs to be unsynced cause you worked "hard" to reach ur level/ilvl. Just imagine this, it completely removes the challenge and fun for the new players if you just have ilvl 200 players waltzing into events that were clearly not designed for them at their current lvl/ilvl steamrolling everything. What you dont understand (or dont want to understand idk) is that frontlines was created to cater to a much broader and casual crowd. As such, alot of casuals are in there compared to wolves den. Do you know why the pvp gear is useful in wolves den? Because wolves den unlike frontlines offers different modes depending on your lvl and ilvl. You are able to avoid going into an instance where you have no chance of winning just because someone PVP's more than you. You would not be able to do that in frontlines unless they add modes to it similar to the wolves den. Anyway it is fine the way it is. What they need to do is show some love to wolves den again and make it more relevant which hopefully they will do in 3.1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yaichiro
I sincerely doubt you actually do feel that someone who just started frontlines today is already as good as you. If you do then you are in the minority as im pretty sure most hardcore pvp'rs do not feel this way. Yes there is unfortunately an added element of rng in there but to say that skill is completely irrelevant in there is asinine. Obviously your impact as a whole as a skilled player will not be as significant as in wolves den by virtue of numbers in having to rely on 23 other ppl also being competent. However skill and strategic thinking is still the most consistent way to win matches in frontlines albeit much more watered down than wolves den.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yaichiro
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08-30-2015, 08:16 AMdistant-cubix
Some of these gear concerns/statements might be somewhatmitigated with more than just the one gear set for PvP. For instance if there was a gear set for frontlines with a slightly lower ilvl than the wolves den set, as frontlines is synced down much lower anyhow. They could even go so far as to make the wolves den set the same ilvl as the PvE set, this only seems viable because the wolves den is the only place morale and materia work for that gear anyway. While making the frontlines set require a slightly lower PvP rank, not by much I don't support handouts, but maybe set it up with the same rank required for the I110 set they just opened. This may allow people mid grind something more obtainable and maybe even throw in some kind of variety into the limited gear options for the ever dedicated PvP community at large, something that I feel most would appreciate,even if only for the glamour aspect seems appealing to you?
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08-30-2015, 08:36 AMFebrusI'd approve of something like this, mostly because the rank grind can feel like running head long into a brick wall as it is now.Basically, between rank 30-50 there's absolutely no rewards short of a few measly skill points. For new players to PvP, it's even worse. The glamour set was unlocked for them already, without rank req, so they probably feel like they're not working towards anything, especially after rank 40. The Exp requirements shoot up astronomically. Half of the total PvP exp is in those last 10 ranks, and, unlike PvE, there's nothing in PvP to scale Exp rewards with the increase. That's probably a big discouragement to a lot of new PvP'ers.Quote:
Originally Posted by distant-cubix
Personally, as far as gear goes, I think there should, at the very least, be a glamour set that is rank locked somewhere around rank 40. It would be nice if that armour set was actually useful, materia and otherwise, but even just a glamour set would be good. -
08-30-2015, 08:54 AMFebrusI often wonder about this, because it seems counter intuitive. What I mean is, Frontlines (Capture and Seize) have actual game mechanics and are objective based. These two game modes actually call for players to work together in order to achieve a broader goal besides simply killing. Proof in the pudding is that you can actually win a Frontlines seize match without killing a single enemy (if you have a rabbit's foot stuffed up your butt and really luck out with Node spawns). Wolves Den, on the other hand, is far more simple by comparison. You're stuck in an arena and you're told to kill the people in front of you. This still takes teamwork and coordination, obviously, but, in terms of actual game mode mechanics, and even the sheer complexity of team coordination (ie: battle highs/fevers/and LB utility), Seize, and back in the day capture, game modes are FAR more complicated... and yet, Seize is somehow aimed at a "much broader and casual crowd..." Yeah, I'm gonna call BS on that one. If SE was aiming this at a more casual crowd, then this is another example of them totally missing the mark in their logical reasoning.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dimitrii
That aside, I do sympathize with your sentiments on this topic, but I really don't see a problem with giving PvP'ers more options to optimize their gameplay. Players who put the effort in should be rewarded for that effort. Even if you want to compare this to PvE, it would make sense. I'm not talking about dungeon level syncs or ranks/levels, I'm talking about achievements and rewards. People who run savage, for exaple, get the gear. Even better, back in the day when we were all grinding for our zodiac weapons, the people who put the effort in, customized their stats and finished the grind, got the reward. It's not a HUGE, game altering, make or break difference (not something that would totally unbalance your average match, in any rate), but it was a difference that enhanced the experience, and those players definitely deserved the fruits of their labours. The same goes for PvP. I don't see why there shouldn't be more gear options available for the players that care. The impact is small (that includes any negative impacts), and the sense of achievement is good.
Even from a strict PvP standpoint, this would make sense. Casual or not, PvP in all of its forms is a competitive game mode. This "all is fair" kind of attitude that SE, and a lot of forum people, seem to have doesn't really suit competitive gameplay, and casual players are going to que casually anyway, regardless of the actions of the hardcore crowd. If a player truly is "casual" it's not like they're going to go out of their way to pursue an optimized loadout even if the options are there. So, why cater to them? I'm not saying they should make such unbalanced options that it would allow for steamrolling (nor could they with the current way secondary gear stats are allocated), but optimization options should most definitely be considered by SE. PvP is far too empty as it is now. -
08-30-2015, 12:24 PMUltimatecalibur
From what I can see PvP currently lacks a level 60 Rank 1 to 15 set (i145 Morale +30), a level 60 Rank 16 to 30 set (i160 Morale +30) and a Rank 31 to 45 set (i170 Morale +30).
I'm guessing by your join date you might not be aware of just how crazy the PvP gear advantage between a new Rank 0 player and a Rank 30 player in i90 was when Wolf's Den was first released. Newly 50 (<i55) Rank 0 players could and often would go from full hp to 0 in 3 actions from an Rank 30 (PvPi90) player. PvEi90 characters faired slightly better as the rank 30s would kill them in 2/3rds the time it would take them to kill another PvEi90 and would only take 1/2 damage. The advantage was so significant that it can be directly attributed as the cause of the Wolf's Den's quick collapse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yaichiro
While in theory the Rank 0s could in theory "achieve" Rank 30 the amount of losses needed to reach that point made it physiologically non-viable.
Also a properly geared character in i180+ crit/det/speed gear is roughly 5% to 15% stronger* than those in standard PvE gear.
Wolf's Den puts a crazy amount of responsibility on each player's shoulders (especially the healer's) for success. If even 1 player does not know what to do(or was a bot) your chances for success were significantly less to near zero.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
Secure, Seize and slaughter put far less responsibility on to each individual player's shoulders. If 1 to 4 players didn't really know what to do it is less of a problem and the other players can cover for them and get the win. This makes it very casual/new player friendly.
*Depends on class and role. Tanks get the biggest boost as they have PvE pieces with both accuracy and parry. -
08-30-2015, 04:06 PMJuen
1. The old lv50 sets dont need ranks anymore and that is GOOD. Its old content, but im disappointed by the lack of content to replace it. SE really couldnt make 3 or 4 new Lv60 sets to replace the Lv50 ones?!
2. The shops should make better us of marks. So the comments for minions/bardings/mounts/housing items. They are great and if they were implemented I hope they are untradable.
3. When PvP finally have arena ranks and awards for ranks, then maybe people will care about ranking up and getting better stats for pvp. To those that wanna cry about it being unfair stats when arena ranks are up, well TOO BAD, you should have invested more time in pvp then!
Also guys, we DO have advantages over new pvpers with out points, so its not as if our ranks are useless. My issue is their terrible math with it being 4pts/skill buff but our max rank is 50... Our last 2 ranks are useless in that department lol.
Btw, ranking up in pvp now IS A JOKE. Litterally so easy and fast now lmao... Why do people complain about ranking up in pvp anymore anyway. -
08-30-2015, 05:11 PMYaichiroYou clearly don't understand how sync works. You're synced to the highest level of the encounter not the lowest and your gears are capped at the maximum amount. A player who has just opened the encounter with all his gears at the same level is way weaker than you when you're synced and even if you that player is at the highest level with proper gears, you're still stronger due to your capped stats but nevertheless that player has closed the gap. This is what I am asking for in front lines which is quite simple; you start weak and as you progress you close the gap.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dimitrii
No one here is asking for boss like players. We do not need unkillable targets in PvP but we want something that adds flavour to our experience in PvP. I don't quite get it why you're saying frontlines are for casuals nor your definition of casuals. Casuals aren't people who can't perform according to objectives nor it doesn't mean that they are bad players. Perhaps what you mean by casuals are ESO/LAW farmers who I bet you will play wolves den much more frequently than seal rocks if they could get similar rewards. How do I know this? Well have you checked the frequency of slaughter/secure matches? -
08-31-2015, 02:54 AMFebrusThis is not completely accurate, and it does not change the fact that, at it's bare bones core, Wolves Den is far simpler a game mode than Seize.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur
What you're saying is that, if you want to win and be good in PvP then you absolutely have to know your job. Yes, very true, but that doesn't somehow change in seize. If you want to be good in seize then you still need to know your role, especially healers. The Alliance with no heals is likely doomed to fail. The only difference between the game modes for what you pointed out is that you have more people to hide behind. That just means that, if you don't know what you're doing, it might not be as obvious. That doesn't mean it's any less damning to your teams success rate. You're just not considering scale. 1/4 does not directly compare to 1/24.
Put it this way, if 1 out of 4 people in wolves den don't know their job, as you said, it's catastrophic to your chances for victory. Now consider this, if the same percentage of your players are new, 1/4 (25% would be 6/24), and doesn't know what they're doing, how good do you think your odds are in that game mode? They're just as bad. Worse yet, in seize they have to figure out more than just their role. In wolves den, it simple. You have a role and you stick to it to kill the guys in front of you. The only difference between that and PvE is figuring out how playing your role has changed against live players. In seize, new players still have to figure that out. On top of that, they also have to learn the game mechanics. Node spawns, map usage, tactical positioning, when to attack and when to defend, etc. It only takes one bad player to screw that up for everyone if they think they know what they're doing and start leading the team with bad instructions.
Even if you somehow think that the noobs are not a threat to your odds of victory in seize (which is silly), that doesn't change the fact that the game mode itself is far more complex than a simple point and kill game mode. -
08-31-2015, 03:16 AMFebrusIt probably has something to do with the fact that at least half of the total exp required to make rank 50 is squeezed into lvls 40-50. The exp requirements shoot up astronomically, but there's no way to scale the exp you earn with your current rank. Which means all that speedy progress you made between rank 1-39 (especially for those people who only just started after seize came out) hits a brick wall at 40. Depending on how many hours you get to commit to PvP, you go from climbing a couple of levels a day to a couple of levels a week.Quote:
Originally Posted by Juen
I'm curious though, if you're having such an easy time with it, what's the secret to your, supposedly rapid, success? -
08-31-2015, 04:34 AMJuen
Im about to hit rank 50 this week actually. And this is just doing the daily roulette and weekly log. Not to mention, i even skipped a few weeks of pvp so thats super EASY minimal 600 pvp exp I lost daily for those weeks. If I almost hit rank 50 with no effort and just doing a total of around 10 to 12 matchs a week, yeah... Ranking use from 1 to 40 should be a BREEZE. Only difference should be the queue times for multiple different people coz we all play at different times.
Fast queue times
Daily roulette
Challenge log
Yeah... Ranking up is so easy now... Like if someone farmed their whole weekly esos in pvp. They would easily achieve 5 to 3 pvp ranks/week at lower ranks and 1 to 2 ranks at higher ones doing the daily roulette with challenge logs.