But what about Summoner???

im sure this has been posted/asked/w.e a few times. so im sorry in advance. but...

what ever happened to smn getting ramuh and leviathan? last time I remember them talking about it was that they didn't want to add them till other classes got more skills so it was fair.


yet here we get our expansion, new level cap, new skills....and not a new egi.... would have been a perfect chance(55 and 60) to add new egis....

has anything been said recently abut this? did I miss something that maybe they are not coming anymore? or what?

I think they decided against that and instead they are doing skins for the current pets

Not happening. We're getting a Glamour System for our current Egis at some unknown point in the future, but no actual new Egis.

They also made an excuse for it using lore during the SMN 50-60 questline.

The SMN quest even tells you right off the bat at lvl50: No Ramuh-Egi or of other primals because they are too stronk to steal part of their essence. So instead you get to channel Bahamut's power, which works just as well for me, way more fun to play now. Who cares about the pet? FF Summoners have always been about unleashing large powers, not being a pet handler.

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Originally Posted by Shadowsun

Who cares about the pet? FF Summoners have always been about unleashing large powers, not being a pet handler.

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The last 5 Final Fantasies have had summons as separate entities and most gave you control over behavior, so thats not really true.

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Originally Posted by Saggo

The last 5 Final Fantasies have had summons as separate entities and most gave you control over behavior, so thats not really true.

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actually quite untrue

FF8, you was calling the summon he was doing him attack and was disappear right after
FF9, same
FF10, you have a partial control of it
FF11, mmorpg bad example
FF12, you call it, but exept the big attack you have no control over him behaviour
FF13, like the 10.

only 2 of the last FF allows you a certain control over your summons, outside this...

by the way, they did this for make the summoner and the black mage different, since in the end often the summoner skill are principally massive AoE

ps: i don't count FF11 since a mmorpg will make the summoner a pet class generally. FF12 was made on a model of mmorpg, but i still count it.

I count 11 seeing as we're playing an MMO too.

even with FF11 we are far from the 5 game... in the whole FF series and spin off, you have about 4 game that allows a certain control over the summons over more of 20 games... that too little for really make it what define a jobs.

the 4th one is Final Fantasy type-0 that allows a full control over the summon.

and like said MMORPG are made for make caster different then summoner jobs tend to become a pet class. but even in this case, your control over the pet is quite limited.

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Originally Posted by Saggo

The last 5 Final Fantasies have had summons as separate entities and most gave you control over behavior, so thats not really true.

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FFXI is the best example of allowing you to do this. I actually would have preferred the FFXI model where you summon a large version of the summon which acts as a pet, but it's not there to supplement your dps. The summon was your dps, it was about commanding and controlling the powerful creature and having it do your bidding for you. I actually think that would have been the better implementation of the Summoner, but MMO's in general have tried to move away from combat pets being anything more than a glorified dot. That irritates me, I'd rather get a pet class where the focus was the pet doing the damage and fighting for you while you get to sit back and give it orders.

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

FFXI is the best example of allowing you to do this. I actually would have preferred the FFXI model where you summon a large version of the summon which acts as a pet, but it's not there to supplement your dps. The summon was your dps, it was about commanding and controlling the powerful creature and having it do your bidding for you. I actually think that would have been the better implementation of the Summoner, but MMO's in general have tried to move away from combat pets being anything more than a glorified dot. That irritates me, I'd rather get a pet class where the focus was the pet doing the damage and fighting for you while you get to sit back and give it orders.

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FF11 model is one of the worst exemple of pet class, since most of the time, people was calling the pet, doing one spell and send it away, since the pet was draining all your mana. other point if you was doing this, what will you do exept spend your time at virtually do nothing... you become not different than a minion.

ps: i think they have found a good balance between us and pet damage.

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Originally Posted by Dree-Elle

Not happening. We're getting a Glamour System for our current Egis at some unknown point in the future, but no actual new Egis.

They also made an excuse for it using lore during the SMN 50-60 questline.

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what excuse was it? sorry i had to skip the event :(

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

FF11 model is one of the worst exemple of pet class, since most of the time, people was calling the pet, doing one spell and send it away, since the pet was draining all your mana. other point if you was doing this, what will you do exept spend your time at virtually do nothing... you become not different than a minion.

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It could be improved upon though. Take away the MP decay, give it more spells, and make the focus on commanding the pet to do different actions. It can have the same rotations and moves as a player character and your hotbar changes depending on the pet you have out. From there you hit the buttons and rather than your character casting spells, you'd see your character gesture while your summon does the actual attacks. I'm sorry if you don't see the appeal of summoning a large version of Titan and standing back while giving him the orders to smash things in various ways for you while you look on in glee knowing that powerful monster is your's to command. The thought of it sounds awesome to me.

Edit: I'll just go ahead and say it outright, I'd rather have Summoner be about summoning things and commanding them rather than the dot-based backloaded burst class where the "summons" (and I use that term very loosely) are just glorified dots. I know it will never happen, but I really don't like this incarnation of Summoner.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

FF11 model is one of the worst exemple of pet class, since most of the time, people was calling the pet, doing one spell and send it away, since the pet was draining all your mana. other point if you was doing this, what will you do exept spend your time at virtually do nothing... you become not different than a minion.

ps: i think they have found a good balance between us and pet damage.

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actually i quite liked ff11 system. you can buff/deal damage and control pet depends on the battle requirement. in ff14, they are just extra DPS.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

even with FF11 we are far from the 5 game... in the whole FF series and spin off, you have about 4 game that allows a certain control over the summons over more of 20 games... that too little for really make it what define a jobs.

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You need to look at where the series is going, too. 10, 11, 12, 13, and 14 all had summons last more than a single nuke at various degrees. It's not random, it's consistent evolution.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

FF11 model is one of the worst exemple of pet class, since most of the time, people was calling the pet, doing one spell and send it away,

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That wasnt the case for the last half of the game. It was trivial to keep a pet out persistently and it was beneficial since TP increased their nukes. The model worked, eventually.

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Originally Posted by skyfox

actually i quite liked ff11 system. you can buff/deal damage and control pet depends on the battle requirement. in ff14, they are just extra DPS.

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Smn in FF11 where more a support then a dps.
Sure i had fenrir who was possible the best pet could had, but you who controlled the pet did nothing more then cast some heals now then.
"red mage was better dps then them"
Smn here are much better prolly one of the highest dps + they give buff to party as they did in 11.

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Originally Posted by skyfox

what excuse was it? sorry i had to skip the event :(

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Boils down to "Whoops, turns out the first three Primals were actually pussies, everyone else is too boss to leech off of. Here, go play with some Essence D'Calamité, there, now, your power level's OVER 9000 kthxbai".

The Summomer summons evolved to the point where we have partial control and they were out for a limited amount of time so at best we would have a large limited pet.

let's say they use the system a la FF11 here, meaning you simply give order, you don't need cast, since....well you only commanding the pet, meaning you can deal damage while moving, while being at distance. for balance this you need to make the pet deal less damage or loose the partial resistance to AoE. the first will simply make the summoner a bad dps and no one will want it and the second is clearly impossible with the lag and the time of reaction of the pet.... let's say they will die all the time.

the point to not have a summoner that simply command a monster is done because it will be either boring and a pain to balance and make it work.

they did decide to go along the way to add dot, for the good reason that while we try to control the pet a bit, the dot still do damage, we are not totally doing nothing. the dps is almost divided for 1/3 between the direct attack of the summoner, the dot and the pet. now they did added the trance for increase the damage of the direct damage and the dot of the summoner. they have a good gameplay, you did wanted a full pet class with nothing to do exept order you pet, i can understand it, but in all honesty, this in modern mmorpg is simply close of impossible.

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Originally Posted by Saggo

You need to look at where the series is going, too. 10, 11, 12, 13, and 14 all had summons last more than a single nuke at various degrees. It's not random, it's consistent evolution.

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like said before FF11 and FF14 are mmorpg, pet class in mmorpg need to be like this.... you can't hope to see simply the summoner unleash the hell on earth, it will be simply a glorified black mage.

10 and 13 are.... please don't launch me on this two i will become quite rude, since i think little good of this two one. for me they was the most bad of the whole series, don't get me wrong both had stuff for them, but they was soo bad in comparaison of previous episode in terms of gameplay and immersion that... well i prefer ignore them and i know some think that the 10 was one of the best.... (i can't understand how is possible *sighs*) we do have two Final Fantasy that are simply glorified corridor, until you reach the last part of the game, where finally you can explore the world, no real freedom.

anyway, each FF try to change the game in a way, but since the 13 is copying a loooooooot the 10 is normal that the system feel similar.
you know what i even prefer the system of summon of FF type-0 to the one from FF10 and FF13. that said...what you do in 1 player game and mmorpg are not the same trying to copy what you can do from a solo game while allowing player to play together is... a no no.

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Originally Posted by skyfox

what excuse was it? sorry i had to skip the event :(

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basically our mana cap isn't high enough to contain their awesomeness

on a more serious note: basically we don't have enough magic capacity to summon them. Think skill point terms, summoning them takes 10 SP while our SP cap is 8

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Originally Posted by hagare

basically our mana cap isn't high enough to contain their awesomeness

on a more serious note: basically we don't have enough magic capacity to summon them. Think skill point terms, summoning them takes 10 SP while our SP cap is 8

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it's more if we try to summon the whole thing.... first we will need tons of cristal and second they will try either to kill us or...kill us since we can't be controled.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

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You didn't like them so they don't count? I don't think it works that way.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

FF10, you have a partial control of it

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Partial? You literally choose all of their skills and abilities. They effectively become a party member, giving you full access to all of their attacks. So, bad example there. In fact, you can even teach them specific spells like Protect and Haste, making them effective combatants in their own right. The 'no-sphere grid' challenge relies on using summons to win every fight.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

FF11, mmorpg bad example

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Errm, last I checked FFXIV was an MMORPG, or am I missing something? Surely a fellow MMO is exactly the sort of benchmark we should be using to judge our summons in this game. Especially another one with the Final Fantasy moniker!

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

FF12, you call it, but exept the big attack you have no control over him behaviour
FF13, like the 10.

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True for 12, false for 13. You're on a time limit, but all of the skills used are entirely down to your own discretion.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

i don't count FF11 since a mmorpg will make the summoner a pet class generally. FF12 was made on a model of mmorpg, but i still count it.

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Again, you discredit yourself since FFXIV is actually an MMO. Or do you consider this game to be a first person shooter?

Honestly, the pets in ARR might as well not even exist for all the good they do. I would have actually preferred a Black Mage style summon and dismiss to the rubbish 'it exists' style of summon we have here. The damage they do is terrible, they almost zero support skills, and they exist solely because of the job name. Painflare was greatly needed because we really lacked spike damage of any kind. Fester requires you to already have multiple DoT's on the target, and energy drain is weak and single target. Compare it to BLM who can spam Fire II for 100 potency on all targets (or use Flare for much more), and it's easy to see where we needed to play catch-up.

So, in general the new direction makes sense from a gameplay standpoint. But I maintain that Summoner feels so unlike a summoning job it might as well be called Mystic for all the emphasis it has. Pet jobs can be done well, but they've decided to have zero emphasis on the pets. In my opinion, Scholar is more of a summoner than Summoner is. At least their pets aren't just slightly useful, but genuinely crucial to every aspect of the job, with strength that rivals the caster.

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Originally Posted by skyfox

in ff14, they are just extra DPS.

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Actually, they aren't extra dps, they ARE your dps. Without egis, a SMN only does 75% - 80% dps. Without egis, SMN's dps is subpar compared to other dps.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

So, in general the new direction makes sense from a gameplay standpoint. But I maintain that Summoner feels so unlike a summoning job it might as well be called Mystic for all the emphasis it has. Pet jobs can be done well, but they've decided to have zero emphasis on the pets. In my opinion, Scholar is more of a summoner than Summoner is. At least their pets aren't just slightly useful, but genuinely crucial to every aspect of the job, with strength that rivals the caster.

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Well said, especially your point about the scholar bit! I feel the same way. Summoner does not really live up to it's name. They do at least explain a good deal of the why in the story yes, but as Lemuria said, they may as well change the name then. A Summoner should be a pet class or it should be about actually summoning things to attack for you. As is, the "Summoner" is not a summoner, it's one hell of a strong dps class though, I cant deny that.

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Originally Posted by Shadowsun

The SMN quest even tells you right off the bat at lvl50: No Ramuh-Egi or of other primals because they are too stronk to steal part of their essence. So instead you get to channel Bahamut's power, which works just as well for me, way more fun to play now. Who cares about the pet? FF Summoners have always been about unleashing large powers, not being a pet handler.

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Actually, that's not accurate.

It's not that they're too strong for us to steal their essence (we still have the essence of ALL primals we've defeated thus far within us), it's just that our own reserves of aether are insufficient to create yet another independent Egi construct (ie. no Summon IV).

Hence what prompted Y'mhitra to find out about an alternative way of summoning (Trance).

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

it's more if we try to summon the whole thing.... first we will need tons of cristal and second they will try either to kill us or...kill us since we can't be controled.

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I'm talking about the egis, not the whole freakin' primal xD

yea no new egis for now. EDIT-> I'll go on to explain their reasoning. They were having a hard
time deciding between the new egis or a system to make smn more involved, as they felt half the time
smn was waiting for aetherflow stacks to come back, which is true. This is why they went with the
new stacks/stance system, to fill in that second half. I'm sure in the future we'll see the egi's or other
similar systems.

pipe dreams - ramuh , less damage but has enfeebs
levi, less damage but acts as support (like selene)

But if we're gonna talk about what we wish smn was, I would be ok with DoTs/ruin as base
damage but then having several larger attacks on timers, much like deathflare that used part of primals
essense vs current egi system.

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

FFXI is the best example of allowing you to do this. I actually would have preferred the FFXI model where you summon a large version of the summon which acts as a pet, but it's not there to supplement your dps. The summon was your dps, it was about commanding and controlling the powerful creature and having it do your bidding for you. I actually think that would have been the better implementation of the Summoner, but MMO's in general have tried to move away from combat pets being anything more than a glorified dot. That irritates me, I'd rather get a pet class where the focus was the pet doing the damage and fighting for you while you get to sit back and give it orders.

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I miss masterminds from COV...

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

even with FF11 we are far from the 5 game... in the whole FF series and spin off, you have about 4 game that allows a certain control over the summons over more of 20 games... that too little for really make it what define a jobs.

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Please keep in mind the lack of processing power on computers and consoles during the first many FF games - there simply wasn't ROOM to make a pet class.

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Originally Posted by jomoru

I miss masterminds from COV...

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I don't think any game will top mastermind when it comes to pets.:(

Please do not touch smn at all . Right now they are in the right place. And if they add new egis , more than welcome BUT do not adjust anything.

So far is great!

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Originally Posted by NinjaTaru72

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on a sidenote, what's that anime in your sig?

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Originally Posted by Shadowsun

The SMN quest even tells you right off the bat at lvl50: No Ramuh-Egi or of other primals because they are too stronk to steal part of their essence. So instead you get to channel Bahamut's power, which works just as well for me, way more fun to play now. Who cares about the pet? FF Summoners have always been about unleashing large powers, not being a pet handler.

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which is quite lame, since Bahamut is one of the strongest primals...
but *trance* works, so duno why we can't get trance for all primals? would be cool with trance-stance, where you dont use egi, but can still use pet skills, from being in trance.
that would be a fun re-invention of SMN. then they could add beastmaster as a real pet job - right now SMN doesn't really feel like one.

Well Dreadwyrm Trance makes me feel less like a summoner rather than more. If I was pulling Bahamut Egi from the Aether and having him cast Death Flare it would be different but trance is just a fancy name for nuking stance that allows me to spam Ruin III and Death Flare. Not sure where the Devs got the idea that we just stood around waiting for Aetherflow to come back up because we kept DoTs up and tossed Ruin in between. I made a post before 3.0 launched saying until they reinvent Egi design, the best we could hope for was 3 spells that would have the animation of the primal Egi attacking and releasing. We didn't even get that.

Question to the community though, has the changes in 3.0 made you want to become a Summoner?

I don't think most people want to become a Summoner becasue of 3.0 changes it just stops players from changing to Black Mage. There is nothing to summon right now except Hydaelyn since the Primals are nothing more than conjurations within the mind of the person summoning it so summoning a primal is would be more of a White Mage ability since they have the conjuring spell line. If I had to guess the next spells we get will be spells based around Calling since we already have an Evoker based spell with Dreadwyrm Trance.

If you want a detailed look at how SMN will be in a couple years go look at WoW's Warlock and take a look at the demonology tree especially. :)

No. Don't change summoner. Adding egis isn't worth destroying what is probably the best state summoner has ever been in.

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Originally Posted by Destomius

No. Don't change summoner. Adding egis isn't worth destroying what is probably the best state summoner has ever been in.

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Adding the Egi glamour system would be most welcomed.
But aside from that, yeah; it's good as it is.