These are exactly the changes I said they should make (though I'm not posting on the JP forums so I doubt they got the idea from me).
Basically, I had been saying that they need to make the AST 90% as effective, healing wise, as SCH and WHM and let the RNG of the cards make up for the last 10%, and I think we're at that point now.
Given that healers are the largest determining factor in raid progression (ie if a healer is more powerful than they should be, then they can potentially allow raid teams to survive mechanics that they don't have the gear to be surviving yet), I'm not upset with Yoshi-P in the least for the fact that ASTs had to sit out these savage world firsts. In hindsight, it was inevitable. Yoshi-P erred on the side of caution because he wanted world firsts to actually be a big deal instead of a faceroll that happened week 1, and believe me, we should ALL respect that decision.
World firsts in FFXIV SHOULD be a big deal, and that's not going to be the case if it happens week 1. If we can get sponsored progression raid guilds to start coming to FFXIV, it'll be AMAZING for the game's overall popularity. This is the real reason I created a thread for this (I meant to do it the other day): don't blame Yoshi-P for this. There have been many cases in the past where MMOs released a new class too powerful (Death Knights) and it was a huge debacle. He made the absolute right decision for doing it this way.
Now, on the subject of the one place AST is still relatively weak: mana regen.
With generally-improved healing potency, we'll hopefully be going OoM less often, but it's still possible to go OoM if a situation turns sour or if you're just trying to heal a party who is bad at not standing in the bad.
In that area, we're still going to be leaning on RNG to help us recover MP. In essence, we ARE still a luck-based class, especially since Spear wasn't buffed and remains a pretty awful draw (RRed on sight...).
Overall, it feels like a good place for the class. We'll see if their representation increases in Savage teams now...
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08-25-2015, 09:23 PMRichardButteAST changes, where we're still weak, and why I'm not upset with Yoshi-P...
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08-25-2015, 09:27 PMRissotoMissoto
Only thing they need to deal with now is making The Spear not 100% shuffle/RR fodder lol
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08-25-2015, 09:32 PMRichardButteAs much as I would agree, I think there had to be one BAD card in the deck and the Spear is definitely it.Quote:
Originally Posted by RissotoMissoto
Originally, AST was designed with one card that was a DEBUFF to whoever you cast it on. Spear is the spiritual successor to that card: while it's not completely worthless, it's extremely situational and probably the last card you want to draw.
Though, with the duration buffs to the other cards, we don't have to be as pinpoint accurate with when we want to use them any longer, meaning that spreading a Spear is now less of a bad idea so we could hold onto it to use BEFORE we fire off big healing cooldowns... -
08-25-2015, 09:32 PMIsala
I give all my Spears to the MCH in the party. Sure, I could toss it on the tank, but they're using those CDs for specific moments in the fight anyway, like tank busters. I rather enjoy giving MCH their Reload 12 seconds faster, and their Quick Reload, well, now 3 seconds faster? Though, if they pop QR right after a Spear, that's TWO QRs in 24 seconds. Nobody complaining about that, methinks.
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08-25-2015, 09:41 PMZaj_Quilos
Spear isn't a bad card - just royal road it :)
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08-25-2015, 09:43 PMDawnSolaria
Why is Spear a bad card? Use it with LA and CO and you will rarely have MP issue.
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08-25-2015, 10:00 PMRichardButteIt's easily the most situational of all of the cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by DawnSolaria
It's not that it's BAD, per se, it's just that nearly anything else would typically be more useful.
As I said, we have a bit more freedom to spread Spears now so it's a little more feasible to have it on hand for when those cooldowns need to pop. -
08-25-2015, 10:01 PMElth
I just can't take seriously anyone saying Spear is a bad card...
It may even be one of the best of all. NIN gets a huge benefit from it, not mentionning tanks and their Hallowed Ground with a little coordination.
But most of all, it's the best card we can cast on US ! LA CU CO LS all benefit greatly from it, allowing for a very decent MP conservation/regeneration, Synastry aswell is enhanced by a spear, even moreso now that it boosts our healing potency.
And what most people usually forget about, it allows to draw MORE cards, reducing the cooldown on Draw and Shuffle.
With THAT much oGCD benefiting from it, it doesn't seem so situational anymore, to me. -
08-25-2015, 10:02 PMRoxas_Andrade
It really depends on the party. If you have a MNK and a NIN, I'd rather draw a Spear than an almighty Arrow. At least you wouldn't drain the TP out of them, making you hope to draw a spire, which is a non-great card as much as Spear...
I agree it's situational, but Spear has it's uses... -
08-25-2015, 10:03 PMAssirraWell the "issue" is what you said in the first part.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elth
In a coordinated group it is very powerful but in the most runs you will do in df you never know when people will use cd's. -
08-25-2015, 10:10 PMElth
That's why in PF/DF you use it on yourself. I'm not afraid to spread a Spear when LA is at 75% CD. (using the spreaded Spear will trigger the cooldown of Spread within the duration of the buff, thus lowering the cooldown of Spread anyway)
And to be honest, the main issue of AST was its troubles in Alex Savage, where you should have coordination and a vocal.
I never felt the class THAT weak in dungeons or primals ex. -
08-25-2015, 10:10 PMLyrinn
Spear is the single best card in the deck next to Balance. If you're not spreading Spear when LA is about to come back up and you're complaining about MP, you're doing it wrong.
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08-25-2015, 10:12 PMDawnSolariaBut if you refer to second part of her post, you can easily see how powerful spear is. Spread a spear and the next brand new uber powerful Synastry will be up even faster.Quote:
Originally Posted by Assirra
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08-25-2015, 10:31 PMRichardButteIt is THE most situational card in the AST's deck, bar none.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elth
Even with no ninja and no coordination, the other cards still manage to be very useful. Also, you'd have to be spreading spear to ensure that it gets used at the right time.Quote:
NIN gets a huge benefit from it, not mentionning tanks and their Hallowed Ground with a little coordination.
Again, this is what makes spear so situational.
But what situation will arise where you'll be popping LA CU CO and LS without wasting some of them?Quote:
But most of all, it's the best card we can cast on US ! LA CU CO LS all benefit greatly from it, allowing for a very decent MP conservation/regeneration, Synastry aswell is enhanced by a spear, even moreso now that it boosts our healing potency.
And what most people usually forget about, it allows to draw MORE cards, reducing the cooldown on Draw and Shuffle.
With THAT much oGCD benefiting from it, it doesn't seem so situational anymore, to me.
See, this is the difference between "on paper" and "in practice".
On paper, sure, it'd be great if we had a spear to reduce all of those cooldowns, but that'll almost NEVER happen in actual encounters.
You can control the randomness a bit by spreading spear, but then you're reducing the chance of being able to:
-Give the party 5% damage increase for 30 seconds
-Give one DPS a 10% damage increase for 1 minute
-Give a tank a 10% damage reduction for 1 minute
-Give the party a 5% speed increase for 30 seconds
-Give an ailing healer/DPS/Tank 30% of their TP or MP back over 30 seconds
etc.
Again, you CAN hang onto a Spear in your spread, but you're basically playing ultra-conservatively at that point, eternally waiting for "the right moment" to pop your emergency cooldowns.
And that in itself isn't a BAD thing, but every draw you have a Spear spread is one more potential arrow or balance you won't be able to hang onto to push the next phase faster. -
08-25-2015, 10:36 PMAylmerOfFamfrit
Well I will just say that and buff is a buff and this update was primarily for AST. I think I might dust off my star globe and give it another go. ;)
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08-25-2015, 10:38 PMRichardButteOh definitely. The AST is no longer head and shoulders below SCH/WHM now. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by AylmerOfFamfrit
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08-25-2015, 10:52 PMSerosJourney
AST just became equal to the others.....but not better!
just how it should be! -
08-25-2015, 10:58 PMElthQuote:
Originally Posted by RichardButte
Ofcourse the other cards manage to be useful, they better be !
I wasn't arguing on the fact it's the only OMGWTFBBQ card, but rather that it's NOT the worst card and can ALWAYS be useful.
No sane AST will pop every oGCD when a Spear comes up. But over the duration of a fight like A1S (8m30) or A3S (13m30) you'll pop them one after another depending on the situation multiple times.
I was emphasizing on the fact that when a Spear comes up, with the amount of oGCD we have, there will always be at least one to use under the effects of the Spear. Hell, even if you already spent everything, the Spear will guarantee a 24s cooldown on Draw when using it.
Balance and Arrow are only considered better because you can see their effect immediately, where Spear takes some time to actually feel its presence.
As you said "In practice" i always had a cooldown to use within the 15 seconds of drawing a spear (and i mean cooldowns I have to use, not cooldowns I pop because I see a spear and don't wanna waste it). When you find a use for it 90% of the time, i don't call it situational anymore. -
08-25-2015, 11:29 PMZholiActually it was never designed that way. The "debuff" was just mistranslated in a development build.Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardButte
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08-25-2015, 11:46 PMGhishlain
I always enjoyed using Spear back pre-3.07 to give my DRGs, NINs, and MCNs a nice small buff to their DPS, or get me a bit more MP faster.
Now that Balance, Arrow and Bole are both 30s buffs I'd rather just RR Spear and take a shot at the following:
- 60s long Balance (effectively two Balances back to back)
- 60s long Arrow (effectively two Arrows back to back)
- 60s long Bole (indirectly reducing my MP consumption due to lesser healing requirement)
- 300 Potency Refresh via Extended Ewer (25% weaker than 400 potency Luminous Aether)
- 300 TP restored to a DPS (I believe Spire is 30 TP / tick)
As much as I love Spear, I don't think the effect Spear gives now compares to the massive list of buffs the above gives. Sadly, I'm pretty much going to regulate Spear to RR fodder outside of a few niche uses when the RNG just happens to land me with a Spear that I just didn't need at the time. -
08-25-2015, 11:49 PMBlood-AkiGivin the fact extended now extends buffs past 1 minute if you use time dill that's pretty much what i'd use it for now, just RR food. a 1+ minute arrow or balance will go a longer way then spear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghishlain
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08-26-2015, 12:00 AMRichardButteFor healing, there are really only three situations that exist...Quote:
Originally Posted by Elth
1. Light to no healing required: everyone is sitting at full or close to full HP. The tank(s) is taking regular, expected damage.
2. Anticipated mechanic healing: you will shortly need to heal the group for an anticipated raid wide AoE or a tank buster.
3. Emergency mode: something has gone wrong or a DPS race wipe mechanic is placing extreme stress on the healers.
The Spear can hypothetically be useful during 2 and 3, with 2 being the most likely situation in which a spread Spear would be beneficial.
In #3, however, no sane player is going to wait for a Spear, and you're doing a disservice to your raid by keeping a Spear spread all this time when you could've been setting up a far more beneficial combo instead.
The other issue here is that the Spear isn't a card with benefits that are felt immediately. As you said, the Spear makes CDs shorter, which helps long term but does little for the short term, unlike an Arrow which has tremendous benefit for everyone and can help you get emergency heals out there that much faster, or a Bole which can stop a tank buster from killing a tank or buy you some breathing room.
You also have to weigh the benefit of RRing the Spear instead, as being able to give a minute-long buff to someone is absolutely nothing to sneeze at. Considering that, is shaving 20% off of a CD more valuable that adding 30 seconds to a Bole? The emergency healing that you get from a CD reduction would probably pale in comparison to making a tank take 10% less damage for 60 whole seconds.
Maybe someone wants to do out the math of how much damage a tank takes in the course of being beat on for 1 minute by a boss, but I'd bet it'll be way more beneficial than getting your Synastry back 18 seconds sooner.
Also, prevention >>>> healing. All of the HP saved by that 60 seconds of Bole costs you 0 MP to heal.
The only time a Spear's benefit truly shines is when you can stack CDs into it, and as I've explained, being able to do that is still highly situational whereas all of the other cards have immediate benefits and will generally always be used to the utmost.
I'd like to see the math, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if Spear was literally better used as RR fodder than actually being cast for single CD usage. I'd also like to know how many CDs (and which ones) would we need to be using during Spear to get more benefit out of it and which CDs would be worth it...
Ah, noted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zholi
Though, I maintain that we had to have at least one card that we don't want to draw regularly.
Agreed in full (we were basically writing up the same post at the same time, heh...).Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghishlain
If you feel ambitious, Ghishy, you can try mathing out the overall benefit of a Spear reducing a CD vs. a Spear adding 30 seconds to one of the big three buffs. :D
We can probably determine exactly which buffs would be more beneficial to Spear if we had values of healing done.
Also, they could simply buff Spear just by making it also reduce CDs that are ALREADY ticking and then it wouldn't be situational at all... -
08-26-2015, 12:28 AMGhishlainIn general, that's the nature of the beast when it comes to mechanics like these. No matter how they balance it, there will always be "one thing in the pool of potentials" that is less desirable than the others. The challenge is making it so all the "potentials" will still be functional and acceptable regardless of their optimal-ness level. In this case, being RR Fodder is still better than a person staring at the card and blanching, so I find it acceptable in my mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardButte
LOL, oh God, I don't think I could Theorycraft that out in an hour, it'd probably take me sometime to figure out ALL the permutations of that. I could try to think up something but don't hold your breath on it any time soon, lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardButte
Though if they buffed Spear like that, it would certainly make Spear significantly more desirable. I got a feeling actually programming that in though is much more difficult than us discussing it is.
[EDIT]
Some food for thought since Richard brought it up and made me think about. Let's discuss Spear over the duration of one minute:
Ninja can Ninjutsu 3 times in a minute for a total of 1,080 Potency in that time frame.
Assuming you draw Spear twice in a row and do it just as their Ninjutsu goes on CD, they'll get Ninjutsu's going off every 16s seconds. Effectively they'll get four Ninjutsu's in 64s, giving them a 360 Potency Increase in that about one minute time frame.
Ninja's most damaging combo is their Aeolian Edge combo, which is a total potency of (150 + 200 + 320) = 670 Potency. Assuming no haste, no poisons, no slashing debuff, no buffs, absolutely nothing - Ninja can perform this 670 Potency combo every 7.5s for a total of 5,360 potency. Add 10% from double Balance (or Extended Balance) and you get an additional potency of 536 which is much better than what double Spear can give your Ninja DPS. This also doesn't include the fact that Raiton itself will be affected by Balance as well and you'll up with an additional 108 Potency over those 60s.
Just a bit more food for thought in terms of probability:
Drawing two Spears in a row is a 2.77% chance of occurring (Extended Spear is not the same as double Spear due to how the spacing of Ninjutsu - spear would wear off after the third Ninjutsu and push the 4th Ninjutsu to 68s)
Drawing two Balances in a row is a 2.77% chance of occurring. Drawing Spear and RRing it for Extend then drawing Balance is also 2.77% chance (you'll probably end up using Arrow unless TP is tight at the time) - this effectively makes drawing double Balance / Extended balance a 5.54% occurrence.
Neither of these probabilities take into account the usage of Shuffle. -
08-26-2015, 02:06 AMElthNote that I agree with you !Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardButte
I wouldn't say that Spear should be Spread at all times. If anything, it's interesting to do so when LA's LS' Synastry's CDs are over 80% done and you'll need to use them on spot. OR right before engaging the boss, i'm pretty sure we can all agree that an Expanded Spear on the whole group right at the beggining of a fight is super strong.
I'm just saying that without considering Spreading the card, there a lot of situations where the 15s window of the card drawn and waiting can be used on you to reduce at least one of your healing CDs.
In that, it's definitely not the card that should make you say "sh*t, gotta shuffle that crappy thing". You could say it's situational to use optimally, but overall can find its uses pretty much everytime. -
08-26-2015, 02:07 AMElth
As to using it as RR fodder now that Balance/Arrow's base duration as been doubled... theorycrafting this is gonna be a pain indeed and it's way too soon to talk about it without proper numbers.
(damn character restriction) -
08-26-2015, 02:09 AMTraeSnow
How is spear bad?
My raid group has an Astro main as it's healer, since the start of expansion, and I'm always telling her how much I love her spear cards as a SMN.
Lowered Aetherflow CD, which in turn increases my own dps, lowered Rouse/Spur + Enkindle, Lowered Tri-Disaster.
Spear is one of the best cards I've seen. -
08-26-2015, 02:19 AMRichardButteUnless we've already got one RRed, which seems to happen a great deal, heh...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghishlain
True, though I think I'd still like to see this change.Quote:
Though if they buffed Spear like that, it would certainly make Spear significantly more desirable. I got a feeling actually programming that in though is much more difficult than us discussing it is.
I think EVERY card should create a debate in the AST's mind: "Do I use this, or do I RR it?"
Spear is a no-brainer. If by some chance I'm about to use a CD, I use it on myself, unless there's a ninja, then I always dump it on the ninja. Otherwise, I RR it. CDs tend to either be used in a rotation and therefore instantly or in the event of an emergency, and neither of those are situations where a CD can be held off for a Spear.
If it reduced existing timers, it'd be perfect: you could fire it off on anyone and odds are that you'd give them some serious benefit because they either will have a CD to cast in the next 20 seconds or they'll have existing abilities on CD.
Maybe they'd need to make it so you couldn't double dip or something (ie an ability cools down faster while under the effect of spear and you use it again).
Another idea would be to make spear last 60 seconds and have 2 charges, where each CD used spent a charged and reduced it by 20%...
If you're in a situation where you're rotating healing CDs for big mechanics, yeah, spear SHOULD always be useful there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elth
Also, you can make a post, then edit it and paste in your post and save to bypass the character limit.
I don't know why they have it, TBH... -
08-26-2015, 02:35 AMGhishlainI really like this idea. It also makes the target think about how they want to use Spear too.Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardButte
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08-26-2015, 02:42 AMDervyThank you. There's times where even I prefer a Spear over a Balance. Spear is an amazing card. I've never understood why people dislike it or think it's a junk card. From a Dragoons perspective:Quote:
Originally Posted by Elth
a) Allows me to get a fully buffed up "4th" after my FT
b) As the buff is now 30s, I can change my rotation ever so slightly to not clip my buffed CT ticks, giving me a huge boost in DPS
c) Times where I really need the decreased in GCD to help me catch up with my BotD otherwise it'll fall off -
08-26-2015, 02:43 AMRichardButteAnd it would let them do it at their own pace, when they're ready to fire the CD instead of feeling pressured into firing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghishlain
Spear's duration hasn't changed: it's still 20 seconds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dervy
And the problem is more from an AST's perspective: if one of the classes that it's good to throw Spear on isn't in our party, then we have a harder time using the card.
Also, which is better: More CD usage, or 30 more seconds of 10% damage? -
08-26-2015, 02:45 AMGhishlainUhhh, Dervy, I think you're thinking about Arrow, not Spear ^^;...Quote:
Originally Posted by Dervy
Love your work BTW~
[Edit] I will admit there's an abnormal amount of hate towards Arrow too, though I personally love it. It's fun watching a NIN / MNK go nuts on GCD with Arrow on and it's not like I don't have the means to restore someone's TP if I really dug for it. -
08-26-2015, 02:53 AMRichardButteI think it's that it causes faster TP/MP burn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghishlain
If you're a class like BLM or SMN that doesn't worry about resources (or worries very little), it's probably great. Classes that can quickly TP starve themselves hate it, though...