Hey all.
It is quite rare for me to start a thread like this one.
However, this time I would like to share my opinion on the state of the SCH job in Alexander savage.
My static has been trying to down A3S for some time now. We are currently at last phase, with quite a few hours of practice under our belt.
I have been a full time SCH since 2.0 was released, and always cleared endgame content before nerfs happened. I always believed SCH to be a very versatile and fun job.
However, now that I am in A3S, I am starting to doubt myself.
While SCH got some nifty new tools, hardly anyone of them seem to be particularly relevant.
In progression content, what matters is "reliability". This is one of the reasons AST is not viable. Fights are all scripted, and groups need to find strategies that work well most of the time in order to reach the latest part of the fights in order to practice them. There is no room for "luck" - consistency is key.
SCH has always been rather rng-based, since its best tool has always been Adloquium, an awesome spell which sadly becomes stupidly MP inefficient when it does not crit.
And this brings me to my next point. Where has our beloved crit gone? SE probably believed that stacking secondary stats too much would allow players to cheese through content, and this is why they streamlined the whole system by severely reducing the importance of those stats. Way easier to balance stuff, this way.
However, now Adlo is a much less useful tool than before. Solo healing is much more of a problem, as well as dpsing. WHM, on the other hand, is now able to do pretty much as much dps as a SCH (if not more, during burst dps checks...hello, Living Limb), by exploiting Presence of Mind. Funnily enough, WHM seems to also be able to solo heal tanks more efficiently due to MP saving procs, as if Adlo does not crit, the SCH runs dry quite soon. Aetherflow stacks are needed for Indomitability and Lustrate when solo healing, so no Energy Drain to get some MP back.
In addition to this, Embrace got a huge stealth nerf which further diminishes the efficiency of SCH tank (and spot) healing.
Of course I am not saying it is not viable, far from it. However, I would say that WHM might come up on top at the end of the day, in terms of overall capabilities.
This is the opposite of 2.0, pretty much.
Thoughts?
SCH in 3.0. Some thoughts while healing A3S.
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08-21-2015, 08:02 PMRemilia_NightfallSCH in 3.0. Some thoughts while healing A3S.
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08-21-2015, 08:57 PMRewindNot sure what type of magical WHM you are playing with but whilst WHM has some decent 'burst' its sustained DPS is very very poor in comparison to SCH. SCH DPS is far, far, far superior to WHM DPS as WHM DPS is very cluncky and always has a chance to miss. SCH mana regeneration is far superior to WHM as well with energy drain and aertherflow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall
I'd argue that SCH should only being Indomitability as a last resort (desperation type heal)?
Adlo is much more mana intensive but I guess it just means you'll have to rely on other things like physick+embrace combo -
08-21-2015, 09:00 PMSpoekes
The only thing that has changed is your Pie and crit rating.
Adlo is just the same skill as on level 50 in terms of mana-efficiency/potency, and you did not start level 50 with 30% crit and 5k mana.
imo it's very comparable. The favor shifted to SCH over the curse of ARR and that's simply because of gear.
Sorry this sounds like SCH 101, but Adlo should not be your go-to healing spell anyway, and it sounds like you are kind of overusing AND "relying" on crits, correct me if I'm wrong.
Adloquim crits have been RNG based, and when they did you could make the best out of the big shield, add damage, heal someone else, what ever,
but saying "Scholar has always been a RNG class" = :confused::confused::confused:
The current nerf to the fairy (on which they said is for the far future when gear inflates *facepalm*) is annoying and should just be undone and redone when the gear has actually inflated.... -
08-21-2015, 09:05 PMRemilia_NightfallNote that my post comes from experiencing A3S. While there is a tight overall dps check, I am still to reach that point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rewind
Burst dps check-wise, WHM with PoM wrecks a SCH.
Also, while SCH mp regeneration might be better, MP consumption is also much higher.
Did you try to solo heal the hands phase in A3S without using Adlo and both tanks in dps stance? :p -
08-21-2015, 09:10 PMRemilia_NightfallChanging crit rate changes Adlo. No two ways around it. And no matter what one can say, Adlo is SCH main tool. Main does not mean "spammable", please do not misunderstand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spoekes
Again, physicks and fairy are not nearly enough to solo heal both tanks on A3S. If they dont have each and Adlo up for every bitchslap, it's going to be painful. -
08-21-2015, 09:11 PMSpoekesThis sounds like a situation in which you MUST go oom, singleheal with tanks in dps stance in that situation, not running dry in the current state of gear progression would be kind of meh don't you think?Quote:
Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall
Just take a look on what crit rating you started with when you first entered Binding Coil Turn 3.Quote:
Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall
I'm totally on your side that crit rate alters adlo, but you just have to take gear progression into consideration.
I can't comment on the AS3 "single heal dps stance tanks"-thing with personal experience, but like really what do you expect??
This sounds like the one perfect reasonable situation where you are supposed to be struggling currently and not some kind of balancing issue. -
08-21-2015, 09:15 PMRemilia_NightfallPoint is, i can see my WHM partner being able to spam way more heals and top tanks off due to Freecure procs, for example.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spoekes
Please try to understand all the points I have made in my oroginal post.
Again, these are comments after healing A3S.
Anyway, it is not only a matter of amount of crit rating. It is the fact that SE diminished the importance of secondary stat altogether. Comparing numbers to pre-3.0 is meaningless. -
08-21-2015, 09:18 PMRewindUsually I'm the one solo healing as WHM, but it isn't that bad? You'd probably need to save 2-3 lustrates for that phase, have fairy healing one tank, yourself physick the other and use lustrate to top the spike damage? Your WHM should assist with regen + tetra when needed. Maybe its less of an issue re; your solo healing and more of an issue regarding other players low DPS not meeting the check? I know it's extremely tight but idk...maybe there are other issues?Quote:
Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall
Sure, WHM does good burst DPS for 15 seconds but then that's it - of course in hand phase it's useful but for the overall fight and rest of savage SCH DPS>>>>>>>>>WHM DPS -
08-21-2015, 09:25 PMPetiteMalFleurScholar burst dps is just as good as whm. Have your whm solo heal equal concentration and your mana issues will disappear. This is one one place I've found a good use for dissipation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall
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08-21-2015, 09:26 PMRemilia_NightfallI fear you are severely overestimating the fairy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rewind
Anyway, my comments are mainly about A3S and specifically the burst dps checks. Please remember that. By burst checks i mean the hands and the adds in the following phase (where dots are not exactly great). -
08-21-2015, 09:35 PMJonnycbad
Are you using Eos for progression? Staggering fey illumination, rouse, whispering dawn should help, emergency tactics for dropping a heal bomb on tanks and saving an aetherflow. I wouldn't even try wasting a stack on energy drain because it's highly likely to miss. Would rather cap a tank out with physick then adlo them at 90% or save adlo for if they drop below 50% HP as a buffer, to tide them over until another lustrate/physick.
Whm will always be better for bleeding edge progression because when you're undergeared, you need potency on demand, not gimmicks. Sch will likely be drastically more efficient than whm once tanks get more hp, and kill speed increases by 15-20% with better gear. As for now, whm delivers high potency with the best reliability, and since by SE's standards, everyone is still undergeared for savage, you want reliable cures, not rng.
Fairy is under healing but as they said, they balanced the curve to fit a much higher ilvl than now. Stupid I guess, but perhaps it cannot be helped. -
08-21-2015, 09:39 PMRemilia_NightfallI started with Selene, as our monk loves it and we had troubles with the hands dps check. I have recently switched to Eos tho.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonnycbad
Regardless of fey illumination, keeping both tanks up in dps stance is still a challenge. A crit Adlo at the right moment really changes things - but as we both said, consistency is paramount in progression.
Anyway yes, I agree with you on all the line. -
08-21-2015, 10:19 PMDarkerOrange
While your complaints may be justified, posting a thread about mana issues as a SCH is unlikely to get you any sympathy, lol. Most classes would kill for the resource management we have.
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08-21-2015, 11:06 PMGhishlain
@OP Comments in general
I feel what you're experiencing is perfectly reasonable. If you consider the maximum attainable ilvl for 5 weeks of clears / Esoterics, we're still undergeared for this content. Compound this by the fact the Dev team decided to throw everything including the kitchen sink at everyone this raid cycle and I'm not too surprised many players feel more stressed when compared to Coil back in 2.X. While the SCH kit is powerful, there are weaknesses to this kit and those weaknesses seem to pushed to the forefront as a combination of both the way the floor works and the fact we're still under geared.
While I don't have any advise to give as I haven't physically been in A3S yet, I would say don't get discouraged and keep trying. Easier said than done, but it seems appropriate as you do have a lot of experience under your belt.
Is there evidence that SE dimished the importance of all secondary stats entirely? From my understanding, secondaries are weaker now than they were before 2.0 is because of how S-E decided to scale the secondaries. Our 3.0 i210 gear would be equivalent to i90 gear back in 2.0 and thus our secondaries would mean less at the current juncture versus five patches down when we're rocking something like i300 gear. I would be interested to see any information that would run contrary to my thought process.Quote:
Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall
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@ Burst DPS debate
The only time SCH should be able to out burst a WHM in DPS (assuming 10-15s window to DPS something) is when they have access to Energy Drain - which is at most 9 GCDs if you have Dissipation and Aetherflow up and at the cost of the majority of your healing toolkit.
Broil + Energy Drain > Stone III > Broil
I will admit I'm not entirely familiar with A3S but I do know of the DPS check with the hand mechanic and if the add phase in A3S is anything like A3, then you have a very limited time to kill a lot of small adds too which is where WHM front loaded DPS will shine compared to SCH DPS. -
08-22-2015, 12:19 AMPetiteMalFleurI am current working on A3S and have done both mechanics where I must solo heal Equal Concentration as well as having our whm solo heal. Whoever solo heals this does dump a LOT of mana. There are cds to make this easier for both healers. I will use sacred soil regardless who is healing it. I will E4E and virus the cleave which applie the 4th stack. This eases healing immensely and It helped me go from oom to being able to continue without songs. I also asked my whm to solo heal the aoe damage in the first part of the fight while I focused on more single target MT healing so I could enter the phase with enough mana.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghishlain
Whoever is dpsing has the easier job no doubt but typically white mage gear stacks more piety so for mana efficiency I think scholar dps is better for this particular mechanic. The difference in burst dps between WHM and SCH is negligible if there is any at all. Apply dots to appropriate hand while weaving in energy drains, then spam broil with energy drains. I use Dissappation here if I enter the check with little access to aetherflow stacks. Dissapation works well here since your heals remained buffed until phase change and the remaining damage is extremely light if tanks are managing cds correctly.
OP, if you are having difficulty managing the Pistons and Gears by all means have your WHM dps. There is no aoe healing that your indominability can't handle coupled with single target physicks. The healer should probably be mostly slowing adds anyway which can be handled by either healer just fine. However, the "burst" dps difference between broil and stone 3 on an add that dies so fast is so negligible I never thought about it. Personally, I find energy drains, Miasma 2 and ruin 2 to be quite useful on adds which are about to hit the water.
This fight for healer is about synergy and coordination. Scholar mitigation is unmatched. Scholar dps is needed but so is whm dps. Howerver, building a strat around assumptions is never a good thing and if one way isn't working try something else and you may be surprised.
Watch the world first clear video by Elysium. Ballad was never played even once the entire fight. They cleared with i190 Hive weapons which have no piety on them. Healers were coordinated and shared the burden of dps and healing in a way that didn't leave one tapped out while the other sat on a full bar of mana. If your group is having that issue discuss it with your whm because either you are not trusting him/her enough or they are just not doing enough to support you. -
08-22-2015, 03:02 AMSidra
Crit rates aren't any different now than there were in 2.05. It will continue to scale upwards as more and more gear is released. It wasn't until the end of 2.0 where we had consistent 25-30%. And the stats seem to be trending that way this time again. One thing I will say is that a lot of the current best gear doesn't seem to have it or much of it - which means most likely it will be prevalent on the 3.1 24 man raid gear.
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08-22-2015, 07:22 PMSlark
I find it hard to believe that someone who downed a boss like twintania pre-nerf (assuming without exploits) would fail to adapt to a new situation.
Emergency Tactics is always relevant regardless of situation.
Any group up large aoe chunk of damage makes Deployment Tactics relevant.
Indominability is always relevant as a safety net for quick and potent AOE healing.
If you ever try to rely on a crit for anything other than a pre-pull crit shield, you are doing something wrong.
Adlo is not reliant on crit. Rather, Adlo scales to absurdly broken numbers when it is crit. There's a difference.
WHM offers insane radius AOE healing and has more sustained raw throughput.
SCH offers a near unlimited amount of emergency cooldowns, has way better mana regeneration, is more mobile, does WAY better DPS, is not nearly as limited by accuracy, can heal two targets at once, is a better spot healer, and offers more raid utility than WHM.
Honestly, I have never seen SCH as RNG-based. I would say WHM suffers from RNG far more.
-all of WHM DPS is RNG based.
-Freecure/Overcure is RNG based.
-WHM relies on crits about just as much as SCH does (meaning that neither class relies on it... Scholar just happens to make more use of their crits when they happen.)
WHMs "amazing burst" is also purely accuracy-based, and sucks up a good portion of mana to do, especially compared to SCH burst, which actually regens mana if you throw in a few energy drains.
If you wanna talk about a class being RNG based, go play WHM, pop PoM, and miss 5 Stone III's, wasting ~3,500mp and an emergency CD on nothing. Keep in mind, during that SCH vs. WHM bursting, SCH is also healing with fairy at absolutely no extra cost and can quickly exit for spotheal indom/lustrates whereas WHM is restricted to regen timers and cannot exit cleric for spot healing without A) Taking time to cast a spell or B) blowing one of their few emergency CDs (when compared to SCH's plethora of emergency CDs).
AST is not as wanted not because cards are unreliable.
AST is not as wanted because it lacks potency, mana regen, radius on AOE heals, emergency cooldowns, and it cannot really substitute for a SCH right now, meaning those issues are glaring issues because almost everything AST is subpar at, WHM excels in.
I have only heard praise of SCH throughout this entire expansion. I honestly think SCH is overpowered when compared to the other two healers.
You see way more successful groups running with scholars than without. Just because you run into a single phase on a single boss fight does not mean you should doubt the class that has literally been in one of the best spots throughout the entire course of this game. -
08-22-2015, 11:44 PMAdrasteiaThey're currently ahead in pretty much every area beyond pure healing throughput. They need to do something about the healer accuracy situation in general (you shouldn't have to sacrifice 50 ilvl and several million gil to have a reasonable chance to not totally whiff), and do a pass on WHM/AST DPS to make it less mana-intensive (or at least provide opportunities for them, e.g.: a random proc when you cast Cure I that reduces the mana cost of offensive spells for X seconds after). Right now, I can spend almost the entirety of A2 doing nothing but DPS as a SCH (current record is about 1025) and generally end it with a thousand mana or so left. Any WHM/AST trying to pull those numbers would be out of mana on wave 5. It's a little ridiculous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slark
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08-23-2015, 12:40 AMGallus
So SCH is all about landing a crit with an adloquium, good to know.
It's not like you don't have a 20% mana recovery ability every 60 seconds (Any AST would kill both their parents for such thing), a fairy that, despite healing a bit less proportionally than in 2.0, it is still resourceless, a 400 potency aoe heal spell every 30 seconds (this is insulting on so many levels), 2 unmissable DOTs and an area of ground damage which can't miss either (shadow flare). You talk about reliability when 3 of your DPS spells can't miss while I constantly see WHMs miss 3 DoTs in a row on their godlike opener xD. Let's talk about reliability lol...oh the irony...
Furthermore, if that wasn't enough, bane has been buffed, holy has been nerfed. I sit at 1200 DPS on the first pulls of A2S, and my poor WHM always goes nuts about it, saying how I play a broken class and all, because he can't even smell my damage spamming holy nonstop and ending up with 4k mana while I'm sitting on 10k mana without even trying.
I'm too in A3S btw. Here's the thing TC, be happy if the job you are "complaining about" is not nerfed. -
08-23-2015, 01:02 AMRemilia_NightfallI never said I "failed to adapt". This is your assumption.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slark
My opening post was just about my current thoughts, mainly about SCH in A3S. I do not care about the rest of the content (except A4S), as everything else is easy anyway. That is all. If you want to read it as "this person believes SCH is UP" feel free to do so - but it is not what I wrote.
Whatever - I guess that opening a thread here was mildly useless :( -
08-23-2015, 05:13 AMPetiteMalFleurSomeone disagrees with a detailed explanation as to why and rather than elaborate your point you dismiss him by essentially saying we are all stupid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall
I guess the uselessness of your thread was a self fulfilled prophecy. -
08-23-2015, 05:48 AMRemilia_NightfallI have elaborated my points in my opening post. People disagree, I am perfectly fine with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by PetiteMalFleur
But I never said that Scholar needs buffs. Again, I was talking about A3S and how, due to a series of circumstances, that fight does slightly favor the WHM toolset, in my opinion. Since A3S is pretty much all I care for atm (and since I have yet to experience A4S), yes, I am currently basing my opinion on my current endgame, which, again, is A3S. Everything else is trivial enough not to be relevant to the discussion. I do not really care if I can pull 1200 DPS in A2S. It has no relevance to A3S.
I know full well what SCH bring to a fight. As said, I have been playing it since day one. There is no need to enumerate its numerous tools, as I am perfectly familiar with them. -
08-23-2015, 09:25 AMPetiteMalFleurYour asked for our thoughts then dismissed them as irrelevant. I don't know what your want.Quote:
Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall
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08-23-2015, 05:00 PMGallusLet's go over your points...Quote:
Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall
It's a very good spell when it does not crit, and it's a godlike spell when it crits, it has a shorter cast than stoneskin and shields and heals for more than the amount of the old stoneskin. You do not simply rely on adloquium crits, you just welcome them when they happen. If you base your strategy on say T13 around adloquium crits, might as well clear that fight 20% of the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall
There isn't even a point here you are trying to make. Just more complaints about how your crit chance has been reduced. Apparently, now you can't even DPS without it xD?Quote:
Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall
A WHM cannot DPS nonstop without going dry in a few seconds. A SCH DPS can bring full damage until their retirement pension (drains less mana than the one it consumes dpsing, loop). Burst damage, WHM has more yes, but even there, it's unreliable (what you've been complaining about SCH), because every single spell of a WHM toolkit can miss, and since you are in A3S, you should start experiencing far more misses than in A2S and in A1S (I sure do), so it's not something you can entirely neglect. As for solo healing, yes, a WHM will solo heal better...mainly because...hmmm...ask yourself this question, for the sake of balance, what should heal more, a SCH and a fairy or a WHM and a fairy?Quote:
Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall
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08-23-2015, 10:55 PMAdrasteia
Even outside of Savage, SCH still rules the roost as far as DPS goes. Trying to spam Holy in a dungeon is a razor's edge struggle for most WHMs nowadays (especially since people aren't fantastically outgearing the content en masse like at the tail-end of 2.55). Shroud of Saints can barely keep up with the mana consumption of continuous Holy spam, and while the burst might be higher, the downtime's gonna be longer (or the run much less safe).
The stopgap solution is probably along the lines of lowering the mana consumption of WHM/AST DPS stuff to make it less of a dicey proposition for them, especially in harder content, but I think the better long-term solution is to find ways to improve the dynamics of healer DPS (so that smart play will let you maintain something along the current lines of SCH DPS) and, possibly, to tie DPS output in with healing (similar to the Cure proc example I mentioned on the last page). I suspect SE is nervous about tuning non-SCH healer DPS right now because of how much extra DPS that could add to current raids, which is understandable (since future planning depends on current conditions, and they've stated outright that they tune raids based on DPS simulations), but I'm hoping they'll do a comprehensive pass on it in the future. -
08-24-2015, 01:38 AMckc22So you're the kind of player for who the entire game comes down to one fight. Thanks for being one of the worst parts of the community.Quote:
Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall
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08-24-2015, 02:20 AMDkDerek
This always happens when an expansion comes out. Healers get used to healing a certain way at the end of an expac, because inflated gear allows them to do so. When you take away that gear, they become rather clueless.
Start of expansion healers is a whole different beast than the end of the expansion. There was no way you were spamming adlo for a crit in 2.0. -
08-24-2015, 08:39 AMRemilia_NightfallWow. Ok. Way to gratuitously insult, mate. Thanks for being one of the most toxic parts of the community.Quote:
Originally Posted by ckc22
I am hardly clueless, considering I have always cleared content before nerfs/next tier of gear. Again, I was just expressing my thoughts concerning A3S. I never said SCH is not viable, nor that it is UP, nor that I am spamming Adlo hoping for a crit. I just said that Adlo is now much less powerful than how it was, due to a series of circumstances. Period.Quote:
Originally Posted by DkDerek
Seriously, it appears people on this forum really enjoy bashing at others just because. -
08-24-2015, 08:45 AMAlahraNot really period, since you implied at the end of the post that WHM was better than SCH, which colored the rest of your post as negative toward SCH. SCH is definitely on par with WHM (and arguably better), so people naturally would respond contrary to that assertion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall
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08-24-2015, 08:54 AMRemilia_NightfallAnd I still believe that A3S still favors WHM slightly. As opposed to A2S, for example.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alahra
This is FAR from saying that "WHM is better than SCH". Again, my thoughts were about A3S which is currently the roadblock for most static groups.
I wonder how many of the posters here even set foot into it. Some did, I can see. -
08-24-2015, 09:19 AMAlahraThough you may not have intended it as such, this was written as a blanket statement, rather than one just specific to AS3, especially since you compare it to the whole of 2.0.Quote:
Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall
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08-24-2015, 09:45 AMrunez
WHM is good for sure, but SCH brings different utility to a raid group. For example, in the last phase there is a cascade that does 14-15k damage every 70 seconds. This is a mechanic that SCH must deal with.
Additionally, SCH dps is better for the split hands because we can use our highest dps ability - bane. Shadowflare also works well here. Selene provides a nice dps increase and eos has insane healing potential (although I only use selene in A3S because our dps was low). This is coming from someone who has cleared A3S.
You are focusing too much on what WHM excel at and must remember SCH is pretty beast in its own right. -
08-24-2015, 10:58 AMKhyanIf you are perfect with sch tools why you complain? Because you can't have better healing, better burst dps than whm & can't solo heal a fight? Lel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall
Sorry, but it seems that played since day one is not enough.
You said a lot of things about SCH that is really wrong anyway. If you think whm is better than SCH during A3S fight, play whm/whm then. I don't think it will be better like that.
You should look at what SCH really brings during this fight than just compare with WHM utility. You're not alone, you should think synergy with your partner instead of thinking about this. -
08-24-2015, 03:32 PMRemilia_NightfallI never said I am perfect with SCH tools. I said I am perfectly familiar with them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Khyan
Why do people insist on not reading -_-