Am I really responsible for the ideal newbie experience?

Hi folks,

Just wanted to get some other tanks to weigh in on this anecdote. I ran Sastasha Seagrot the other night for a new member of our FC. He was ready to run it and one of my FC healers volunteered to join him and said they needed a tank. I was on, so I offered to run it with them.

I gave them a full clear. I marked tarkets. I provided feedback to our new member one time, letting him know he ought to focus on the targets that I mark. I explained the (minor) mechanics of the second and third boss fights - first is just tank and spank. It took about forty-five minutes and my explanation of the third boss was a bit rushed because a) it's kind of hard to explain to brand-news until you've done it and b) I had pressure at home to have started dinner about fifteen minutes prior. We killed the boss and did have a bunch of adds, but still burned him just fine with no deaths. I bowed, ran out, and went to make dinner.

Now I'm getting a complaint from my healer that I "rushed" his first dungeon experience and didn't explain enough to our new guy. This blindsided me because it was a perfectly fine, full run. I don't really get what she felt was rushed about it.


As a tank I always do my best to make sure sprouts have a good run. But I also try to keep things moving for veteran players. I don't have downtime between pulls but I wait for mana, etc. But is it really our job on top of everything else to make sure that people have an "ideal" time? I feel like if I'd spent more time on the keyboard we could have been there an hour or more.

tl;dr It's hard for tanks to please everyone. How to find a happy medium for noobs?

Imo, 45 minutes is average for full clears. From what you explained here, you did give an ideal first dungeon run. The only thing that may be is that you were moving slightly faster than a first-dungeon-ever DPS might have expected since you had people waiting in you for dinner. I personally try to avoid runs of anything when I have close to 45 minutes left before something important like food or going somewhere. Just food for thought.

Jsyk, for the last boss, you can simply say: Pick a gate, and if you see it start to shoot bubbles, go click on it. That's pretty much all there is to that fight, though you can largely ignore that mechanic as well.

It sounds like, while you may not have noticed, you were internally rushing due to other obligations. Your healer could also be wrong, you may want to ask the guy you helped what he thought rather than getting a second-hand take on it.

45 minutes is on the longer side of the spectrum for any dungeon run. If you took that long while explaining things then you were fine.

Honestly, sastasha shouldn't require more than a few statements here and there on what to do. There's no reason to write a book about it. The purpose of the dungeon itself is to baby step new players into their roles.

It's true you can't make everyone happy. I'm usually in the pickle where if i dodge the aoe's on a large group pull and it forces me to move the mobs a bit and the DPS or pissed, or i take a few any my healer asks me why I can't dodge. Your never gonna make everyone happy on tank, but as long as you run the dungeon at reasonable pace then your are doing your job.

Enjoy tanking, because you cant always enjoy the party.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Jsyk, for the last boss, you can simply say: Pick a gate, and if you see it start to shoot bubbles, go click on it. That's pretty much all there is to that fight, though you can largely ignore that mechanic as well.

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That's more or less exactly how I outlined the fight to him. I even assigned him a grate and placed a waymark at it.

And I do plan on asking him how he felt the run went next time I see him. Thanks for your feedback!

It was definitely not a speed run but I did skip the last group of mobs bc that was when my IRL party members started saying "hey...dinner...?"

It sounds more like this person's expectation was out of line with what a FFXIV dungeon experience really is.

Perhaps they expected to stop and read some flavor text or to take a swim with the jellyfish, I have no idea; however, there is a limit to how far you should be expected to go to cater to other players. If anything it would appear that you hosted the longest, most help-intensive newbie dungeon run I have ever heard of.

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

tl;dr It's hard for tanks to please everyone.

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If you try to please everyone, somebody isn't going to like it.

If you go into business school, one of the things they teach you early on is that you will offend most people and you need to pick a target audience. Now tanking isn't running a business but one thing about people is the same: What one person thinks is perfect another will hate. Just do the best you can and leave it at that.

yeah...you did fine..I mean are you suppose to hold their hand while they look at the scenery and then walk down each path instead of running...I don't get it either. Sounds like you were a good sport and help out when needed, they have got to give it a rest.

Boy, I'd kill for some people who wanted to take their time. Feels like I can't run a Sunken Temple of Qarn without an angry ninja throwing me into enemies like a cannonball.
But no, it sounds like you did plenty well. Don't want to make them too pampered, it'll make the culture shock of their first no-stop dark knight run fatal. ;P

I personally like to keep things moving I'll stop for people I'm helping to read the side notes and I'll kill all the mobs but at the same time your not really a tour guide you know? They shouldn't need the full dungeon timer to feel they got the full experience. We aren't required to look at every rock in the whole dungeon to fully clear it lol. But then again they might be so new they can't really enjoy the scenery while in combat. Either way I'd say you took more then enough time for them

From the sound of it, you did fine and everything went well enough without wipes or super-stressful situations. But to give my opinion about your title-question: it's not just your responsibility, it's everybody's and because of that no one can be pleased 100% of the time. :)

Yes, you are responsible... But so is everyone else in the party. I've had fun runs with new/struggling tanks, and not so fun runs b/c of immature dps. Did the new guy have fun?

While I'm not a tank, It sounds like you ran it fine. Like others have said, you don't need to stop and smell the roses on the way.

I only started playing in Feb this year and remember the tank, healer and other DPS helping me out in my first Sastasha run. Simple instructions and I asked questions if I wasn't sure. For a greenleaf Sastasha is the first dungeon you hit. I do recall how overwhelmingly nervous I wasthat first time.

Even if you took an hour, they may have still felt rushed. If your greenleaf wasn't asking anything it sounds like they didn't feel rushed. I'd ask them directly for some feedback so you know for sure. You could even ask in a way like "I haven't run that dungeon in a while, any tips if I help someone out again?"

I wonder why the healer, if they felt it was rushed, didn't say something during the run or check with the new guy how they were going..? It's not the tanks job to explain everything.

Next time they should try their luck with a DF tank?

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Originally Posted by SpecialKK

Next time they should try their luck with a DF tank?

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Yep. Let them see the real world. They will probably change their tune.

Seems reasonably fine. Nobody should be getting serious about anything in Sastasha. Not enough to make a whole thread about it. This dungeon, being the first, takes forgiveness to the extreme. And the following ones aren't much different, offering no "change what you're doing or die" mechanics until about Brayflox's Longstop, which takes multiple amount more time and EXP to access.

The only thing I'd criticise would be failing to describe the mechanics of the last boss. You'd have to be a newbie to games at all, not just MMOs to fail to grasp something to the tone of "Watch the 4 corner grids. Activate them when they're bubbling up to stop more mobs". Hardly a time-consuming detail to impart and the rest is a non-issue to a DPS or Healer. Though you might have benefited from telling them to put Limit Break in their hotbar before entering, and then mentioning how to know when to use it.

Though the first bit of criticism only exists because he didn't do something that good players make a habit of doing before they begin. Read about what they're walking into. DPS don't always have to be as concious of mechanics as tank, but when they do and don't know about it... hell hat no fury. On the otherhand, stopping at the boss-gate and saying "tell me what to" may be worse for everyone than just checking online, but it could still be worse than that.

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Originally Posted by Cooperal

You'd have to be a newbie to games at all, not just MMOs to fail to grasp something to the tone of "Watch the 4 corner grids.

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I'll have to disagree with that statement. My GF started playing last month. Never played a single game in her life, decided to try FFXIV and decided she liked it.

First Satasha run? I told her to watch the grates. I'll explain need-to-know mechanics and let her go in semi blind beyond that, please note i always run as Tank or Healer so I make sure the group never suffers from it.
It also adds some extra excitement for her not knowing what is around the corner.
She saw the bubbles and message, ran to it to check it out and clicked it immediately. Granted, she was too slow the first time. After that she was watching it like a hawk and caught it each time.
Now if only she can learn how to dodge better ;-P

Back ontopic:
You did nothing wrong and you did everything you could have done. Us tanks are always in the front of the group therefor a lot of people perceive us as the "Leaders" of the party.

Officially? We are not. Unofficially? Due to the stereotype we often get thrust into the role and a lot of us actually do pick up the role in a great manner. People are responsible for their own experiences. They could have used Party Finder, they can use Duty Finder, they can pull together friends and Free Company support. YOU ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE.

Yes, we can be one of those people that help and make the experience better, we are not obligated to however.

I myself always try to make the run as comfortable for everyone as possible. This is always dependent on the experience of everyone. Experienced group? I'll gather 2-3 groups depending on party composition and go nuts. Inexperienced group? Mark targets, explain tactics, give tips, go slow, go for easy pulls, limit amount of mobs, position in a more open area to leave more room for dodging and run more cooldowns to make people feel safe and secure.

Conclusion:
You are playing this game for your enjoyment. That means you should be enjoying the game. I for one enjoy helping others. It is by no means an obligation.

This is spoken by a Tank/Healer whom is mentoring 3 new players currently and also has had a mentor get him up to snuff.

People make their own experience. No matter how shitty or how smooth a run is, it's all on the person in front of the keyboard.

You did above and beyond so i would say it's just the healer being an arse, let them have a duty finder tank next time so they can cry to them.

If I were you, I would leave that FC just because of how incredulous that healer is. That was a disgusting attitude from them thinking the sproutling is entitled to be taught instead of figuring things out themselves.

No one should ever have to be forced to mentor/teach/instruct anyone. Being a tank doesn't mean leader, it just means you're pulling first and holding everything, no other reason. That healer is what's wrong with this game.

Survival is for the strong.

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Originally Posted by CarnivalNights

If I were you, I would leave that FC just because of how incredulous that healer is. That was a disgusting attitude from them thinking the sproutling is entitled to be taught instead of figuring things out themselves.

No one should ever have to be forced to mentor/teach/instruct anyone. Being a tank doesn't mean leader, it just means you're pulling first and holding everything, no other reason. That healer is what's wrong with this game.

Survival is for the strong.

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Gonna kind of respectfully disagree.
Tanks ARE leaders, but we're not hand holders. We lead the charge, we lead the battle... the fight is our stage and we are the one orchestrating the dance.

BUT, I do agree with you that the healer is out of line. If he was really worried about the run being too fast, or not enough explained, then HE should be the one telling the tank 'slow down a moment'. or explaining further.
I can't speak for all healers, but I know if I can't type and heal... then I've got an extremely bad group. And at the speed it sounds the run was going, the healer should have been able to easily type while healing. At least long enough to let the tank know they're going too fast.

We needs must be clear (as they would say in old timey English) about this one particular thing: Being a tank is just a party role. You pay $14.99 a month to play this game the same as everyone else. You are not beholden to anyone to go above and beyond your duties just to expand someone else's arbitrary sense of enjoyment. If you do decide to do this, it's because you're being nice. You should be thanked for doing that but it should never be expected of you.

The only absolutely non-negotiable about being a tank is holding threat and doing your level best to keep everyone alive. Everything after that is voluntary, and you don't have to do a *****ing thing if you don't feel like it. This means exploring the entire dungeon and explaining boss mechanics is just you being a nice person. Which is great because nice people are wonderful and the world needs more of them. But the second someone expresses entitlement instead of appreciation, well they can go eat a brick. This is a game, not a job. And if a guildy feels rushed after a forty-five minute run, then that guildy is a peanut that needs its entitled little shell cracked. Cheese and Rice, what's she going to do when she gets to end game and people want to get things done as fast and efficiently as possible? "Stop rushing me guys, you're killing my sense of immersion!"

Bzzzzzz! Wrong answer!

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

OP

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Nah. 45 minutes is a long time for a dungeon to be ran more so for one so early, unless you did a full clear. Don't know what your healer expected you to do. Maybe you should have afked and went to make dinner?

I think you did more than enough:

1) You explained each fight.
2) You kept downtime low while still allowing MP to regen.
3) You helped out an FC member who was new to the game.

Other than playing the game for him/her, you did everything that could be reasonably expected.

Hmm, I agree with everyone here, but I do need to ask this:

Did you tell the party you had dinner coming and had to rush to make it in time?

If yes, and you still got that complaint, we really need to sit your friend down and talk about priorities (mostly of the poop-socking and player-starving-to-death variety).
If not, a few words might have prevented this comment. It won't be a "perfect" run, but honestly it would have been perfect enough.

No your not responsible. Your responsible for doing your job I.e. tanking. People feel to entitled to everything. If I were the one tanking I would tell the person to git gud. You wonder why you see people doing 300dps in i 180 + gear? It's because people baby other players to a point they expect everything to be handed to them instead of learning, practicing an working hard. I tell my fcs members if they don't put the effort don't expect any help from me. It seems harsh but it's the only way people learn.

"45 minutes" and "rushed" don't belong in the same statement if you're talking about any dungeon run

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Originally Posted by Destomius

"45 minutes" and "rushed" don't belong in the same statement if you're talking about any dungeon run

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Unless it's Toto-Rak. (All of my hate for that sodding dungeon)

I also have to add, the healer was talking about taking her barely out of the box dark knight into Sastasha (she'd only done a few guildhests) before I stepped in and said I'd tank.

I found out later that her expectations were higher because I am the guild master and she didn't have complaints about my tanking. So we cleared the air there. I let her know I thought anything more than 45 minutes would have been excessive and our new member wasn't at the point we should have been offering performance critiques. This was strictly a "get your feet wet" run and I thought we did that quite well.

If someone would of asked me to hold their hand. I would literally mass pull or make it as hard on them as possible, goodness knows they won't have it easy on em'.

Seriously, she was just being a brat. So treat her like she treats you.

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Originally Posted by Erit

Unless it's Toto-Rak. (All of my hate for that sodding dungeon)

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Nah. You can full clear that in about 25-30 minutes as long as your DPS know how to DPS. ;x

No dungeon in the game takes 45 minutes to clear as long as 2-3 of the 4 know what their doing, your tank doesn't sit around doing nothing for 3-4 minutes, and your healer knows how to heal.

As to the thread title question, the answer is basically "yes." Who else would be responsible?

As a tank, people (normally) wait for you to pull mobs, so you set the pace of the run. You decide which rooms will and won't be cleared. You decide the size of the pulls. You can lock a poor soul out of the final boss in Toto Rak if you aren't paying attention (I did that once by accident).

Some people like to think that tank isn't a leadership role, but the whole party is following you.

As to your specific situation, I don't see anything wrong in what you did. It is not your fault if they have unrealistic expectations, especially if they don't communicate them. If they thought that was bad, let 'em spend some time out with the wolves in the DF.

The person in charge of the newbie experience is the newbie themselves.

Honestly. Expecting anyone to do anything for you is just asking for pain.

When I started, I started as archer. First time in? "Hey guys. First time, let me know if I need to do anything, ok?" Outside obvious mechanics like the heads on plates in Qarn, it's mostly "dont stand in this". Couple sentences usually fixes things, and the one explaining for me was almost always the healer.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

The person in charge of the newbie experience is the newbie themselves.

Honestly. Expecting anyone to do anything for you is just asking for pain.

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Isn't that a strong case of "self-entitlement" that has been plaguing the MMORPGs in general for the past 5 or so years?

45 minutes in Sastasha? You did way more than you signed up for. Your fc healer sounds like they have control issues.