Captain Knockback

So I was just reading something hilarious in reddit about being THAT GUY, the only one that really made me wonder is the one about the dude who knocks everything back whenever the skill is off CD.

I play MCH a lot these days, and my approach to Blank is to wait until tank has aggro on a pack, pick the thing that's not the primary target, Blank it and bind it. Tank takes less damage, healer can DPS more and by the time our primary target is dead the bind wears off and the mob rejoins the pack. Everyone's happy, right?

Chime in, people. I don't want to be that guy annoying all the tanks and melees.

Any AoE will miss that target, be it damage or aggro skills. In case of aggro skills this (in connection with not being able to do single target AoE skills) can mean that by the time the mob comes back the healer is the one with the aggro.

On top of that, what is the primary target? Most tanks don't mark nowadays and you might annoy the melee who is attacking that mob at the moment (i hate it when someone knocks the mob back i'm attacking when i'm on monk or paladin)

Your AE heavy classes won't be pleased, no.

Generally my take on such abilities is, don't use them in group content unless it's obvious that things will go horribly wrong otherwise. These are fine abilities that have a lot of use in PvP and solo gameplay. In groups they have niche utility at best. You want your tank to handle mobs freely as possible without anyone chiming in; if the tank drops too heavily this is either his own fault for taking too many mobs or not handling defensives correctly, or the healer's for not paying attention. DPS players contribute by killing stuff fast, and not by controling mobs themseves.

And yes I know there is a damage component to these abilities; frankly I have no clue why it is there at all. It only serves to confuse people into thinking they have to use them as off-GCD DPS abilities rather than for crowd control. Do not fall for such things. Believe me, the damage coming from other players you destroy by knocking that mob away far exceeds the bit you gain for yourself.

When levelling my machinist, I never use blank outside of solo grinding/killing stuff because I know how annoying it can be when I'm playing a close range dps and someone uses a knock back ability causing my target to fly a gazillion yalms back - thus screwing up my rotation and making me have to run after it to get back into attacking range :P

I honestly did not consider the AoE aspect too much - good point. I don't think of Blank as a means of doing damage, I was just happy to see some form of crowd control on a job for once and though of a somewhat meaningful way of using it to help. Perhaps not, then. :p

As for what is the primary target, I'm fairly good at watching other players while I do my thing, so I'll open with the usual attacks while watching DPS positioning, who's facing what and the HP bar of the mobs. Within a GCD or so it's pretty clear what's not being actively attacked (at least with a melee as second DPS) and that's the one I'll Blank.

EDIT: To clarify, I've been a DRG main since closed beta and know all to well how annoying it is to see your target fly off. My blanking thus far has been strictly for the mob that nobody is directly hitting.

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Originally Posted by seekified

I play MCH a lot these days, and my approach to Blank is to wait until tank has aggro on a pack, pick the thing that's not the primary target, Blank it and bind it. Tank takes less damage, healer can DPS more and by the time our primary target is dead the bind wears off and the mob rejoins the pack. Everyone's happy, right?

Chime in, people. I don't want to be that guy annoying all the tanks and melees.

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Please do not do this. I die a little inside whenever I see that I have a MCH in a dungeon roulette since at least half of them seem to do this.

Tanks don't want it, healers don't want it, and DPS roles do not want it.

As a PLD main, I hate it when people use knockback skills or don't put their Garuda on Obey. It really messes with my ability to keep aggro off the healers, even in low level content. In high level content, AoE is king and knockback messes with that too. Also, personally, I'm one of those tanks who rotates targets to build enmity on all of them at once, so I'll split my combos between them as I go. Not only does that let me keep aggro well off the healers, it lets me put my damage mitigation move (strength down for 20 seconds) on all enemies. Also, by building up extra enmity on the non-main target when there is a main target, when the main target dies, I have enough aggro on the rest that I can switch to my MP-restoring move (and DPS moves if 52+) to get ready for the next pull.

In my personal opinion, the only times to use a knockback move are:

• The tank lost aggro and the enemy moved far enough away and in the right direction that, if you knockback, it'll push the enemy right back next to the tank where she can re-establish aggro without having to move. If the tank has already started moving toward you, do not do this! You'll overshoot and its annoying.
• An enemy is ranged and won't move, and you are lined up perfectly to push the ranged enemy to the tank (it was extremely nice in the old DD first room farms with those two ranged enemies that were hard to move even with LoS tricks). Or, similarly, when an enemy needs to be somewhere specific and it isn't there and you are lined up just right to push them there.
• An enemy is already against a wall and positioned such that a knockback move will not move it.
• An enemy needs to be interrupted and you're rather sure the tank won't be able to do it in time and no one else has a stun. There are also some stun-immune enemies that are not knockback-immune and can be interrupted via knockback, but I'm not exactly sure which.
• You are fighting a knockback-immune enemy, such as the majority of bosses.
• PvP.

Any other time, knockback can be incredibly annoying to tanks and melee and can result in the healer dying, especially if the tank fails to notice that her AoE threat generators are no longer hitting one of the enemies.

From a novice tankng perspective I dont mind the knock back if, the group isnt aoe killing, and it is not the mob currently with the lowest health. This generally avoids the missed dmg and after 3-4 hate grabs i find it is rare to lose hate within the 15 seconds or so it wil be away from the pack.

Do not use it as a finisher, the target ring stays on the mob till it stops moving, and will screw the expected tab target order. (Yes there are ways around this targeting issue, but generally you dont know what targeting method is being used so just don't risk it)

Duly noted! Thanks for your input everyone, I'll hold off on the blanks. :)

@Nyalia - Excellent summary. I play WAR a fair bit too but I've just kinda dealt with knockbacks as and when they happen without thinking too much into it.

I'll use those actions (garuda-egi knockback) only when getting hate, shooting it back to and not away from the tank.
Or when a tank dont stack all mobs on the only ranged mob (maybe cant break LoS).. Sometimes i DoT first, shoot him into the group and Bane then.

Feels like you did some great COMBO-action. :D

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Originally Posted by seekified

So I was just reading something hilarious in reddit about being THAT GUY, the only one that really made me wonder is the one about the dude who knocks everything back whenever the skill is off CD.

I play MCH a lot these days, and my approach to Blank is to wait until tank has aggro on a pack, pick the thing that's not the primary target, Blank it and bind it. Tank takes less damage, healer can DPS more and by the time our primary target is dead the bind wears off and the mob rejoins the pack. Everyone's happy, right?

Chime in, people. I don't want to be that guy annoying all the tanks and melees.

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I miss AoEs and I can't dot them all up.

There are only three situations in which I ever use a knock back:
1) the target is not susceptible to knock back
2) the target is up against a wall so it won't actually move
3) the knock back is the killing blow (or at least super close to it)

From two different job perspectives:

As a BLM: you just knocked that mob out of the AoE pack for Fire II/Flare, you suck
As a WAR: you just knocked that mob out of my AoE pack for Overpower, now the only person building hate on that mob is the healer

The only time I've used Blank in dungeons is when a tank is derping out and not pulling all the melee mobs next to a ranged mob (seriously this is annoying). I'll run up behind the ranged mob and Blank them towards the tank

We have a zero tolerance policy for this crap lol.

Knockbacks are used when you pull aggro and you knock the mob back towards the tank, and on bosses or other mobs that won't move. That's it.

Yeah unless you are knocking that straggler caster mob into the pack because the tank didn't figure out how to get them all in the pull, just don't use the skill.

I'm leveling machinist and the desire to use it is very real as it is part of our dps rotations (on immune bosses) but for regular mobs I must resist. If I do it by accident, I'll say as much in chat b/c I know it's annoying.

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Originally Posted by Kazumac

Yeah unless you are knocking that straggler caster mob into the pack because the tank didn't figure out how to get them all in the pull, just don't use the skill.

I'm leveling machinist and the desire to use it is very real as it is part of our dps rotations (on immune bosses) but for regular mobs I must resist. If I do it by accident, I'll say as much in chat b/c I know it's annoying.

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just use snare shot 1 , share CD anyway and u dont hurt any1

In group, there are three appropriate uses for Blank or Fluid Aura:

1. Tank lost aggro and you are keeping the mob off your healer.
2. It is the only way to reposition a stubbornly unmoving mob.
3. You know FOR SURE it will be the final shot that kills it.

Otherwise, it's very annoying for your other dps and your tank. In fact, if I see you using it and it's not one of the three above situations, I actually say out loud, "Oh, you're one of THOSE machinists."

Don't.. knock back targets, unless you are in immediate danger. You are not helping the tank like you think you are.

There's nothing that kills me more than running double melee in a dungeon and the healer runs up and uses Fluid Aura.
-_-
Especially when there's a single mob at 80% health.
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That's all I've got to add to the previous responses, lol.

I was leveling MRD the other day with cnj, arc and mch in tam tara and mobs were flying everywhere was pretty funny/ frustrating.

I was on SCH the other day and had just started applying dots on a mob an just as I do the last one, bam! The mob is across the room and bane is wasted.

From a mch perspective: Do use blank. Every chance you can because it IS part of your dps priority system IF what you are fighting is immune to knockback (as others have said) which is most things but trash 50+ in dungeons. If you are fighting something non-immune then you simply don't use that skill. It is all about priority and maximum effectiveness.

When tanking i hate it. Sorry guys if you knockback a mob you can deal with that mob, im not going to keep wasting unmend, unleash, shield toss or provoke to get back a mob

i think most MCH wouldn't mind they are kite masters, kiting mobs for the win

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Originally Posted by seekified

I play MCH a lot these days, and my approach to Blank is to wait until tank has aggro on a pack, pick the thing that's not the primary target, Blank it and bind it. Tank takes less damage, healer can DPS more and by the time our primary target is dead the bind wears off and the mob rejoins the pack. Everyone's happy, right?

Chime in, people. I don't want to be that guy annoying all the tanks and melees.

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Unfortunately, you are that guy. Usually in dungeons its all an AOE spam so if something gets knocked back it takes extra effort to kill it. If anything just use it when the mob is like 10% HP and you're sure you can finish it off yourself.

Playing mob ping pong with 2 MCH and a WHM can be lots of fun but unsually I only used it to finish off a mob.

It's something that I would save for near-dead targets. Or ones that are positioned against some obstacle to prevent knockback.

Despite it being necessary to squeeze out YOUR optimal damage, there are things that must be assessed for it to roll out smoothly. First and most obviously, if your party is able to place ground AoEs or the other DPS rely on melee, just don't use it. Even if the melee has alternative targets they can use to avoid breaking their flow.

Also try to assess the skill level of the tank (no I'm not talking about how high his level is or the abilities he's unlocked, but more his apparent understanding of his role). Some believe that it's the tanks job is to waste the enemies efforts as much as possible (this is correct). The other kind think it's their job to make sure the enemy can hit them at every possible opportunity besides AoEs. The latter are stupid and will probably run after the knockbacked enemy regardless of whether it screws up the position of all other enemies, whether it was their target or not, OR whether they still maintain highest aggro. Or they will just express fury at you out of an unbending and ill-thought-out disdain for any and all forms of knockbacks.

It's not worth the risk in some DF parties. Even if you're being careful not to tamper with the efficiency of others, you could still be throwing yourself in the firing line of a vote-kick.

And if you're going to try to use it "near" a wall rather than right up against a wall, make sure to pay attention to your tank, especially if they're a warrior. I've had MCHs Blank an enemy that was near a wall but not right next to it figuring it was okay because they couldn't move MUCH... while I had Raw Intuition on after having the mobs perfectly positioned so that they're all hitting me from the front. That couple steps was just enough to make me eat crits.

Killshots only. Same as Fluid Aura has always been.

This doesn't work so well for an MCH or SMN, but if I'm tanking and a WHM uses Fluid Aura, I completely ignore the mob they hit, assuming they wanted to tank it. I only pick it back up when it's the last one in the group. Doesn't work as well for MCH or SMN since its the healer who pays for their choice, not them =\

As a Tank I honestly do not mind it, as I wait for it to come back to me as nine times out of ten I already have a ton of hate built up on it already.

As Monk though <.<

Just say it was for science.

They will understand.

Only use Blank to knock mobs towards the tank, not away from it.

Like those caster balloon spirits in DD. If the tank isn't good at LoS'ing to pull them, you Blank them towards the tank.

I find it annoying while tanking (especially on DRK with Blood Price up, I need those hits to regenerate mp).

I find it annoying on DRG when trying to time that last Fang and Claw/Wheeling Thrust hit to refresh Blood of the Dragon for the next set of mobs.

I find it annoying on NIN when trying to time that last Armor Crush to sustain Huton for the next set of mobs.

In both DPS situations, it's supremely annoying when you get in position to activate the skill, just to have the mob go flying off.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Just say it was for science.

They will understand.

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I'll tell them that the next time I do Aurum Vale (my MCH is still at lv 47 :P )

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Originally Posted by Kanemano

I find it annoying on NIN when trying to time that last Armor Crush to sustain Huton for the next set of mobs.

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To be fair on this point, at least SE was kind enough to make Armor Crush not require flank hits for the buff refresh. The positional just ups damage by a lot. Still, if the mob flies away from you and then is killed by the ranged before you can get that last hit in, it's incredibly frustrating and can be a big DPS hit. When I was leveling NIN to 60, I hated being paired with MCHs, especially in the earlier game dungeons where you are more likely to encounter newer MCHs. I just started assuming that if a MCH hit an enemy with Blank Shot, they were planning to kill it on their own, and I'd ignore that mob. A lot of NIN DPS is DoTs - even in early dungeons, I would DoT each enemy, then run a full combo on one, and then re-DoT. It's an effective form of AoE when you don't have actual AoE skills. Can't do that if the enemies are flying away...

Yup, both BotD and AC don't require positionals per se, but when you're making the effort to hit the positionals for the higher potency and the mob straight up goes flying away, that's zero damage regardless.

And I doubt that extra hit from Fluid Aura/Blank Shot makes up for having to re-apply Huton (instead of using TA/Raiton/Katon/Doton immediately on the next pack) or having to go through the AC combo again, potentially before being able to land DE.

BotD thankfully has a fast recast, but if you're still waiting for it? Lower potency Jump/Spineshatter Dive, and no access to Fang and Claw, Wheeling Thrust, and Geirskogul.

Unless people are getting face-raped or you're trying to help corral mobs, push back moves are a pain the ass for everyone else involved.