Scholars, dps, Accuracy, and you.

I dont think this has been brought up/lately. The savage fights are supposedly tuned to not include healer(maybe tank) Dps with proper gear levels. however, we are clearly not at that point right now, therefore the games raiding scene has been ALL ABOUT: Moar deeps.

My point. The devs, KNOWING that we would be undergeared going into alex savage, decided to not give us healers, ANY accuracy. Why? Maybe they are just sadistic(most likely :P) Obviously to meet enrage timers, we would have to have out dps friends optimize rotations/CDs to pump out max numbers and make the remainder up with tank dps and healer dps. So wouldn't one think that perhaps they should just give us accuracy on gear? on the Alex 190 gear? on this gear that is entry level into alex savage? as we are going to be dpsing regardless of our accuracy levels. All I see this concept of "not needing healers to dps" is a headache for the healers while dpsing with loads of misses.

TL;DR: No acc on gear bc healers shouldn't need to dps with proper gear. Yet we dont have proper gear, as it's not possible to get the proper gear. So therefore we are dpsing with loads of misses=headaches.


Comments? Thoughts? Ideas?

Side note: I do hear of crafted right side melded with acc gear being a thing, anyone have info on this/worth it?/numbers on what acc we should be at/what numbers we would achieve with melded craft gear?

personally don't know how much of the gap we will make up with this...ball park as I'm at work atm, I think I have about 350-ish acc. I think casters need 500-600?ish

again, thoughts?/info?

Most groups will be running with a bard, if your fortunate enough he can rain of death for you occasionally.

Dps checks are implemented for a number of reasons.

The main reason is so we log on every week to cap esoterics, granting raid groups more power each and every week. Once they overcome their first wall, they will run into the next. Need more esoterics. Need more weeks.

Putting ACC on healer gear will ultimately ruin their current model. If they did that, they would have to tune the fights around healers dpsing.

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Originally Posted by DkDerek

Dps checks are implemented for a number of reasons.

The main reason is so we log on every week to cap esoterics, granting raid groups more power each and every week. Once they overcome their first wall, they will run into the next. Need more esoterics. Need more weeks.

Putting ACC on healer gear will ultimately ruin their current model. If they did that, they would have to tune the fights around healers dpsing.

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I get what you are saying, but healers are having to dps as it is now, with or without acc. Why not give healers some acc on gear and not give us the pain of missing all the time. I'm sure they realized when tuning the fights that, oh shit, with their 190 gear the dps wont be able to meet the enrage.

I haven't worked out what dps increase would be w.o the missed spells, would it really make that big of a difference to throw off their balancing?

Nah they expect healers to dps, seems fairly obvious to me.

I think accuracy changed a bit with the expansion, because I'm missing less in savage than I did back in final coil with a full accuracy scholar zeta. :S It's interesting..

I hope they add some accuracy to our gear cause missing on hunts, bosses and Bismarck back and wasting mp and aether stacks on moves that miss is disappointing..

I have done floor savage and you can do 750-850 dps as a scholar (without bard :() on the 1st phase during A1 savage for example. And less than 400 on 2nd phase, I don't remember

I have one crafted ring and foods that can help for the lack of accuracy but you will not really miss too much, it's not as if you gonna do t13 without accuracy.

I am sure Yoshi-P commented on this before, stating that accuracy is coming back on healer gear in future gearsets.

Also i think droping ilvl with crafted gear to meld accuracy into isnt that viable at the moment. You loose too much MIND and i dont think its possible to actually meet the accuracy cap, so net gains may not be that great for dps increase.

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Originally Posted by DkDerek

Putting ACC on healer gear will ultimately ruin their current model. If they did that, they would have to tune the fights around healers dpsing.

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Actually they did that in 2.X and still didnt tune raids to take into account healer dps. It was possible to get to accuracy requirement as a healer in Coils (dont think it was in First, but it was for subsequent ones).

You can use i150 crafted accessories to meet accuracy checks, but(outside of VIT), using i180 crafted left side for accuracy will be better than using the i150 accessories. At the moment, accuracy isn't really necessary, but it definitely is helpful if you decide to try and cap it. I'm not sure on the caps for A1S+A2S but anywhere above 475 should give you 95%+ accuracy, and A3S cap for casters is 530.

If you don't have the kind of gil to drop right now for left side crafted, wait for the i180 right side to come out, because a mix of those will most likely be best if you want to DPS often. Right now if you cap accuracy you're giving up an absolute ton of MND so you have to do as much as you can or it's just not worth it. I think when the entire party is i200+, healer DPS will be unnecessary, at least for A1S/A2S, which would let groups reach i205 eventually, where healer DPS wouldn't be needed for A3S and probably A4S. Everyone should contribute though.

This keeps cropping up on here. Did no one heal during Binding Coil? There was no accuracy on gear then either. The reason accuracy was added to healing gear after BCOB was to keep it at the same baseline relative to the new accuracy requirements in the content going forward. Because they reset the baseline in the expansion, there was no need for healer gear at this time to have accuracy.

We will likely see accuracy added to healer gear in 3.2 when we get a new raid tier.

I know Yoshi-P made the statement about them not tuning the fights for healer DPS - but in my mind that's total BS. He's not technically lying, I am sure they go to some undisclosed ilevel in their lab and do the fight. But the thing is, that future secret ilevel the fight is "tuned" for isn't nearly as pertinent to the playerbase as "now" - the fights are released and we are playing them - so "now" seems like a much better place to define if healer dps is needed or not, then some unknown future date when we hit their magic ilevel. And now - the encounters are tuned for needing healer DPS. A1 is 100x harder if you don't have healer DPS, and by the time you get to A3 it is 100% required.

Has anyone figured out a feasible way to not miss at all? I know we have a decent accuracy rate, but missing still is infuriating and the 530 accuracy number sis so far off from where we are at.

Well, they don't tune fights for the most "hardcore" progression groups. When they tune the fights (and the corresponding gear progression), they have a certain idea of how much time, in the real world, they want it to take for the "average" raid group to clear the content, and set the item level accordingly (using essentially weekly lockouts to determine how long it takes to get to a certain item level). Yoshi was pretty clear that they want to allow those "world first" groups to do more than an average group to push that progression, which is part of why they tune the fights the way they do.

If they tuned them assuming healer DPS, it would take away one of the ways in which high-end progression groups can differentiate from the "average" group and give them fewer tools with which to clear content at the cutting edge of things.

My biggest hope is that at some point, the new relic weapon allows for customized stats. That'll allow for 100+ points of accuracy on the weapon, add in accuracy food and you'll probably go from 354 to around 500, which I'm guessing, is either 100% hit or very close at least.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

My biggest hope is that at some point, the new relic weapon allows for customized stats. That'll allow for 100+ points of accuracy on the weapon, add in accuracy food and you'll probably go from 354 to around 500, which I'm guessing, is either 100% hit or very close at least.

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I'd assume they'll let us customize the stats again in some manner, probably through some sort of materia system like we did in ARR. I sort of hope it's a bit less granular than it was last time, as with current stat budgets, we would need an unfathomable number of materia.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

I'd assume they'll let us customize the stats again in some manner, probably through some sort of materia system like we did in ARR. I sort of hope it's a bit less granular than it was last time, as with current stat budgets, we would need an unfathomable number of materia.

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Yeah, they will probably have materia add +2 per meld :P

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Originally Posted by Tide

Yeah, they will probably have materia add +2 per meld :P

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I really hope it's a little more than that! x.x I'm also hopeful that the "benefit" of having a completely Zeta will have something to do with the customization stage (perhaps letting us transfer some portion of the stats forward from the Zeta, so we have less melding--or whatever it's called in the new system--to do).

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Originally Posted by Alahra

Well, they don't tune fights for the most "hardcore" progression groups.

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I am not Hardcore anything - I actually am kind of awful at this game. And right now healer dps is needed in Savage. We're beyond the point of stating it's only for world firsters when scrubs like me are working on the content in which healer dps is definitely needed.

Whatever it is, it's the thing I'm looking forward most about the relic. If it's a weapon that it's not going to have customized stats, and that it's going to be trashed in the next expansion (just like we've seen), there's absolutely no reason for me to even spend a second of my life bothering with it.

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Originally Posted by Sidra

I am not Hardcore anything - I actually am kind of awful at this game. And right now healer dps is needed in Savage. We're beyond the point of stating it's only for world firsters when scrubs like me are working on the content in which healer dps is definitely needed.

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They don't intend for every group to be able to clear Savage right now. They want you to have to get more gear for your DPS to meet DPS checks, and so on, because they want the content to last for a certain amount of time before they add new content. That's why they tune the fights for a certain item level. If people want to clear the content before that point, they have to push tank and healer DPS, use VIT melds to get around HP checks, and so on.

Why not add an accuracy bonus to Cleric's Stance?

I agree with that, but I guess it's just a matter of semantics. In my mind, if a fight is released now, and players are playing it now, I think it's more pertinent to define what the fight is tuned for now - as opposed to when we hit some secret ilvl at some point in the future.

And btw, I am not complaining. Healers have dps kits might as well make us use them. I always just think it's ironic when they say the fights aren't tuned for healer dps when you need healer dps to clear them, unless you want to wait 3 months.

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Originally Posted by Sidra

And btw, I am not complaining. Healers have dps kits might as well make us use them. I always just think it's ironic when they say the fights aren't tuned for healer dps when you need healer dps to clear them, unless you want to wait 3 months.

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We're at the point now where Esoteric weapons should be a fair baseline, so I'd imagine pressure for Healer DPS on will probably start to lessen, at least for AS1. If the "target" item level for AS1 is i190 (which is just a guess, it could really be higher for all we know), then I'd imagine they intend item level for subsquent turns to be about 5 higher each go (so i195 for AS2, i200 for AS3, and so on). Obviously, the more focused a group is toward pushing for clears, the more they're going to want Healer/Tank DPS regardless.

They probably do aim for the majority of serious raid groups to clear AS4 in something approaching 3 months, since that's been the normal patch cycle (and at least thus far, they've always made the raiding more accessible by adding the 24-man gear to make hitting the necessary item levels easier).

I mean...you're not telling my anything I don't already know - I understand their methodology. It's just I think they might as well say:

"When top tier raids are released, they will most likely need healer dps to meet dps checks. As time goes on and gear increases, that requirement will lessen"

Stating as they did that the encounters aren't tuned for healer dps, when it exists for months with players doing it and needing healer dps - isn't really accurate to the experience a lot of their players will have.

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Originally Posted by Sidra

I mean...you're not telling my anything I don't already know - I understand their methodology. It's just I think they might as well say:

"When top tier raids are released, they will most likely need healer dps to meet dps checks. As time goes on and gear increases, that requirement will lessen"

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They *did* basically say that though:

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Originally Posted by Yoshi-P

Certainly for people who are at world's first level, their goal is to clear it at as low an item level as possible, lower than the one assumed during development. So if you look at the fight and figure out that if it's not numerically possible to clear with four DPS and tanks, you'll need to make up the gap with DPS from healers.

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That's from Yoshi's answer in the interview where this came up. He never really hid the fact that it would be necessary or anything. While he mentions world first groups in his response, it applies equally to anyone doing the content at a lower item level than they tuned it for.

OP, even without accuracy you can still contribute a sizeable amount of dps. Obviously this is higher with accuracy melded gear but you don't need 100% hit rate to clear the content.

I have 2 accuracy melded jewelry items. I don't need them but I like to contribute more to damage so I equip them anyway. The jewelry itself was fairly inexpensive. 150-250k for each item itself. The grade 4 materia was all under 20k. Obviously this can get pricey if you have really bad rng but you don't have to be rich to get either.

You can completely negate misses (minus Waukkeon) on Expert dungeons with around 370 Accuracy, and all misses on A1-A4 with around 400 Accuracy. I believe Bismarck Ex and Ravana Ex are in the 440-450 range, while Alex Savage is above that (sadly can't fit a static in with my current schedule, so no way to test ;_; ).

Hey, any healer currently tackling A3S could tell me if the 150 accessories are worth crafting or not ? With some food, 5 accessories and the belt (yeah I know, the MND loss...) I think you can reach something like 520.

With fully pentamelded right-side (+24 per, 120 total) and +Accuracy food, you can get to around 500~. You'll end up losing 45 MND over Alex NM accessories (more if you're using Savage stuff), as well as a bunch of secondary stats. Unless you have a Bard constantly using RoD, you can make a solid argument for pentamelded right, since you'll otherwise be missing probably close to 8-10% of the time otherwise. My argument for it goes along the lines of: doing mildly less healing is fine (because each GCD will still produce a certain amount of potency in healing terms), but missing 8-10% of the time isn't (because each missed attack consumes a GCD and produces no effect potency-wise). I prefer to sacrifice a small amount of efficacy for certainty.

I'm not sure if sacrificing the belt slot as well is worth it, to be frank, since I've heard tell that the A4S cap is about 520 (which means that A3S is likely a little lower than that). In a perfect world, the Astral Silk stuff wouldn't cost 30 million gil per piece to craft, and it'd be a moot point. \_('v')_/

I tried DPS on T13 as SCH, and compared with current raid, A1 to A4, the accuracy for A1 to A4 is much better than T13. I did spam Broil on T13 and it gives miss alot.

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Originally Posted by Eul

I tried DPS on T13 as SCH, and compared with current raid, A1 to A4, the accuracy for A1 to A4 is much better than T13. I did spam Broil on T13 and it gives miss alot.

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A1-A4 are more comparable to something like CT1, so it makes sense.

during last AS3 I had 11 "miss" during the fight... it's nuts
really hope they do something about it, if healers are meant to help DPS, then give us ways to get accuracy without melding

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Originally Posted by Eul

I tried DPS on T13 as SCH, and compared with current raid, A1 to A4, the accuracy for A1 to A4 is much better than T13. I did spam Broil on T13 and it gives miss alot.

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The issue is that SE is repeating the 2.0 timeline.
Back on 2.0-2.1 healer gear had 0 accuracy as well, then when scob got released the new gear had accuracy to allow healers to dps on the new content (both dungeons and raids) then fcob came out and even more accuracy was added since the new accuracy caps got raised.

It's not even about fcob exclusively, i see myself missing a LOT on the old expert roulette content mainly 2.55 expert dungeons.

http://i.imgur.com/Tle4OMw.png

If there's a single memento I'm going to keep with me from 3.0, it's gonna be this thing. I shouldn't have to wear a solid gold belt just to avoid missing repeatedly in A1-A4, of all places.

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Originally Posted by Adrasteia

http://i.imgur.com/Tle4OMw.png

If there's a single memento I'm going to keep with me from 3.0, it's gonna be this thing. I shouldn't have to wear a solid gold belt just to avoid missing repeatedly in A1-A4, of all places.

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This is just what I need with my actual pentamelded accesories for my accuracy cap. Please, gimme now. :(