People are hyping WAR's too much.

I've been reading a lot of threads about WAR's being stupid OP at the moment, and would like to give my input.

According to the previous DPS parsing thread:

WAR - 1000 DPS
DRK - 970 DPS
PLD - 940 DPS

Clearly, WAR DPS is the highest (I didn't see that to be a surprise, they've usually been the damage dealing off tanks).

What about healing?

WAR - Equilibrium, 1.2k pot heal. Can only be cast on SELF. Plus Bloodbath and SE combo and IB.
DRK - Many moves for active regeneration, such as DA+Souleater, DA+AD.
PLD - Clemency, 1.2k pot heal. Can be cast on anyone, 600 potency heal on the PLD if used to restore a party member's health.

"But we can't use Clemency while being smashed on!"

Shield Bash -> Cast Clemency

Sure, warrior's can use their Equi for TP, but only in deliverance (requires a stance swap if you're tanking) and if you're OT'ing, like you should be, you kind of need it.

TP management:

WAR's win lol. But they're DESIGNED to be damage dealing OT's!

Utility:

WAR - SE/SP combos (mantra if you CC)
PLD - Divine Veil, Clemency, Cover, Rage of Halone STR debuff, Blind from Flash
DRK - (not too familiar with DRK, correct me if there are more) DB int debuff, Reprisal, DP blind

OH **** invulnerabilites:

WAR - Holmgang (6 seconds, you can't drop below 1, and you're forced to eat all AoE's.)
PLD - Hallowed Ground (do I need to go over why this is the best?)
DRK - Living Dead (Healers might need to blow a small proc to get you back up, timing is also necessary)

Overall Rankings:

DPS:

#1 WAR
#2 DRK
#3 PLD

Healing:

#1 PLD
#2 WAR
#3 DRK

Utility:

#1 PLD
#2 DRK/WAR

Invulns:

#1 PLD
#2 DRK/WAR

If there are any flaws in my logic, please let me know. Feedback is appreciated!

https://i.warosu.org/data/ck/img/004...3481955455.jpg

Paladin healing is too slow to matter. 3 seconds where you cannot parry or block, with savage bosses interrupting it. Even if you manage to get it off as an OT, 3 seconds is an eternity to healers whom have likely got the target (you or the other tank) so full that your clemency is 90% over healing.


Warrior heals are incredibly not because of their power but because they are INSTANT.
Also you do not have thrill of battle on your list, which is 20% of your total health. On a warrior in defiance thats actually rather incredible. Since Clemency generally heals me for a little less than 1/3 of my total health without a crit, thrill of battle giving you 20% health instantly every 90 seconds is not half bad. You also list DRK 'generations' but not Inner Beast? Given this is cast before busters that 300 potency heal (with no penalty mind you, so its going to enjoy the maim buff for a total potency of 360. When you consider Soul Eater is penalized by 20% before gaining the 15% bonus its actually ending at 368 potency with DA) helps top you off before taking damage. Pretty useful.

#1 healing is Warrior. However without it, they would mitigate for crap. Clemency is icing on the cake for paladins. Dark Knights dont live due to Soul Eater--but Warrior tanking revolves around sudden burst healing and their big hp pool, which generally is not as ideal as having say--mitigated the damage to begin with.

So..... your trying to say that there's a better alternative to a warrior off tank?

in most cases darks and plds never off tank so test them two again in tank stance using full tanking rotations and debuffs.

Honestly, I would prefer a WARRIOR OT, but all the classes provide nice bonuses for OT'ing.

Warriors can do massive damage and keep Frac/SE/SP up easily.

PLD's can clemency and divine veil (clemency could be helpful if used in coordination with the healers to relieve healer stress)

But I do feel like DRK is a better main tank all around.

but your missing the point like plds heals and stoneskins in a usual raid is something the healers would take care of and darks in general have less dps than warrior off tank.

Basicly off tanks are just incase MT dies to take agro but off tank should the strongest type of tank a warrior due to being able to snap agro quickest let alone dps.

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Originally Posted by Tsolake

I've been reading a lot of threads about WAR's being stupid OP at the moment, and would like to give my input.

According to the previous DPS parsing thread:

WAR - 1000 DPS
DRK - 970 DPS
PLD - 940 DPS

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Could you tell me where this is coming from? I have seen WAR pull over 1k without food/pots, but I have yet to see a DRK pull over 920 without those let alone 970.

I'm getting second hand embarrassment from OP's post.

WAR - Equilibrium, 1.2k pot heal. Can only be cast on SELF. Plus Bloodbath and SE combo and IB.
At anytime, for free, on 60 seconds cooldown, significantly reduce stress on healer after and tankbuster or anything that matters.

PLD - Clemency, 1.2k pot heal. Can be cast on anyone, 600 potency heal on the PLD if used to restore a party member's health.
3 3 3 seconds cast time, during which you can be interrupted, cost 2/5 of your total MP, you could be using that time to gain more enmity or deal more damage. Also tank shouldn't be healing anyone to begin with.

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Originally Posted by LordHousewife

Could you tell me where this is coming from? I have seen WAR pull over 1k without food/pots, but I have yet to see a DRK pull over 920 without those let alone 970.

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Erm, most warriors pulling those numbers are wearing 4/5 strength and every point in strength since the harder the inner beast the more healing that's not including Second Wind/Equilibrium which is effected by how attack power we have making strength the best stat to put into for a warrior as long they keep 17k-18500k health while DRKs are force to wear about 2/5 so they can tank on a moments notice as a OT(due to low health).

Again, why warriors are awesome!

For the longest time, warriors were not even playable in this game. Now they are in a good spot, and because people don't understand what Sq-enix is trying to do with the class, they cry and cry some more. I think of warrior as a "hybrid tank" and I like the direction Sq-Enix is taking it. No it's not your typical meat shield play-style. And why people think every tank should play like that baffles me. I think of Warriors like I think of Bards and Machinists atm. Bard/Machinist are a support type of dps. Warrior to me is a dps type of tank.

Yeah, the 3 second cast time really kills Clemency. It should be instant with a 30 seconds cd. Some people would say that's OP, but the skill encourages that you use it on them. Why else would if reward you with 600 potency back? Heck, it takes like 40% of our total MP and is on the GCD (WAR is off the GCD). I would say that's worth a saving heal. It's useless as others have stated with the cast time. If it was instant, we could save people from the brink of death if they got hit really hard by something, but as of right now, no.

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Originally Posted by Laptopmenace

For the longest time, warriors were not even playable in this game. Now they are in a good spot, and because people don't understand what Sq-enix is trying to do with the class, they cry and cry some more. I think of warrior as a "hybrid tank" and I like the direction Sq-Enix is taking it. No it's not your typical meat shield play-style. And why people think every tank should play like that baffles me. I think of Warriors like I think of Bards and Machinists atm. Bard/Machinist are a support type of dps. Warrior to me is a dps type of tank.

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Tell me about it, I compared taking out a mob with my drk and my warrior. It was like day and night. My warrior could kill it in seconds compare to my drk which has the same amount of gear. We wanted to try something new farming Rav ex and have double warrior and the boss went down even FASTER. By the time we limit, he was already at 10% health compare to having 30-35% health.

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Originally Posted by Abomination713

Yeah, the 3 second cast time really kills Clemency. It should be instant with a 30 seconds cd. Some people would say that's OP, but the skill encourages that you use it on them. Why else would if reward you with 600 potency back? Heck, it takes like 40% of our total MP and is on the GCD (WAR is off the GCD). I would say that's worth a saving heal. It's useless as others have stated with the cast time. If it was instant, we could save people from the brink of death if they got hit really hard by something, but as of right now, no.

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I think that's why they made it where you get interrupted cause they don't want a paladin to be a last second cliche healer when tanking a boss. Look what happened to paladins in WoW when word of glory was first put in, prot paladins in were just healing them selves or others when tanking making fights really easy and stress heal free.

I think Clemency is just a sort of "top up" healing.

There's this time when I tank The Vault with Ser Charibert. The AST was running OOM with Lustrous on CD and the MCH was dead so no MP regen there. So, I healed the BLM while getting some heals myself. The AST was fully healing me so I don't need that much heals anyway but the BLM wasn't receiving anything and "THE SICKNESS MUST BE PURGED" is slowly killing her. The healer got an AOE dot on everyone but it couldn't hold up against "THE SICKNESS MUST BE PURGED."

I spammed Riot Blade and got her up to half health at most at times, so she can actually DPS the boss.

We killed him with me half health and the BLM and AST on the verge of death. The MCH never got up again.

Clemency is like HG. It needs to be planned to be used effectively and I have never been interrupted before casting it. I mean if I have went WAR and about the same HP percent at that point and I only have Equilibrium? We would've wiped.

Clemency is a good tool for me and like everything about PLD, it's more focused on preserving life than destroying enemies like WAR or DRK. I like it.

But THAT doesn't mean I wouldn't enjoy it being instant cast or less cast time.

Did someone say SICKNESS MUST BE PURGED?
http://static1.fjcdn.com/thumbnails/...d6ca9b4512.gif

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Originally Posted by elemental10

But THAT doesn't mean I wouldn't enjoy it being instant cast or less cast time.

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*slow clap* It would probably go a long way making it a 2.5 second cast. IMO it should have been that from the beginning.
#CastClemencyPlease

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie-Amber

but your missing the point like plds heals and stoneskins in a usual raid is something the healers would take care of and darks in general have less dps than warrior off tank.

Basicly off tanks are just incase MT dies to take agro but off tank should the strongest type of tank a warrior due to being able to snap agro quickest let alone dps.

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DRK needs more OT utility yes.w I think everyone agrees on that.
PLD can OT just fine, they are just a little more support focused. Their cast bar difficulty is gone when they OT. Perhaps this is intentional?

EDIT: Dont forget that a nice little bit of PLD damage is now baked into their new DoT. Once more, maybe its intentional to allow OT casting. PLD is the safe Tank for both MTing and OTing. You use it when your raid needs a buffer.

Atm i prefer MT and OT as a warrior, or a dark. Both mitigate all content very well, have good aoe, can take care of themselves and are useful.

Paladin...I dont see the case for them in either context, save for that they have hollowed ground.

Honestly at this point we're just complaining about minor things, tanks are in a very good spot at the moment where you really can bring whatever you want and you'll get it done which is a lot more than can be said about healers. Do some things need fixed? Yep. Has the sky fallen? Nope. Does it look like it's about to? Not even close.

Mountain meet molehill.

I completely agree that WAR is being blown well out of proportion. There have been numerous threads on this very recently on the forums, and I really do appreciate the players who released the tank DPS video, even if quelling the irrational arguments will never happen.

I've been playing main as warrior for quite a while now. I love warrior.
If the whinging forum renegades get their way though, and somehow warrior gets nerfed to the ground, no problem! I'll just move right on to DRK and do pretty much identical damage anyways.
I'll miss a little bit of utility and I'll be taking every goad from my ninja, but I'll get the job done in the same way I always have.

And then the whiners will head on over to the next class that has a .1% statistical advantage over their counterparts and complain that their the reason they can't find a group to run with either.

Can we talk about dem crit Equilibriums? Tossed one out yesterday in Bismarck for 5K. I thought it was a fluke until I put up another in Neverreap.

That 1.2 Equilibrium heal is a baseline. The actual heal it gives, OGC, can be quite a bit higher even non-crit.

I don't think warriors are overhyped, but I think we're in a REALLY good place right now. But good players on PLD or DRK are doing quite well so it's not like they're undesirable.

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

Can we talk about dem crit Equilibriums? Tossed one out yesterday in Bismarck for 5K.

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You can heal for over 10k if it crits with berserk up. Almost never happens when you actually need it though, at least for me.

Oh please, not another one of these threads.

WAR is fine as it is.

PLD is fine as it is. This is by far the safest tank and is not "bad" in any situation.

DRK is fine as it is. Though it needs some utility.

Wanna give one of the tanks something? You will have to give the other tanks something in return.

PLD will NOT deal as much DPS as WAR, nor it is supposed to. You want an instant Clemency that you can cast 3~5 times per minute thanks to Riot Blade and Sheltron because Equilibrium is oGCD? How is that fair? 3 seconds cast isn't even that long. The healers have to spend 2.5 seconds casting their heals anyways. 0.5 seconds isn't the end of the world.

Let these threads die please. It's getting out of hand.

Just give all tanks a means to viably restore TP IMO. It might seem like homogenization but nobody complains about homogenization when every physical DPS in the game has access to invig, so.

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Originally Posted by NFaelivrin

Just give all tanks a means to viably restore TP IMO.

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Let's make it gimmicky!
Sword Oath: Additional effect: 3 consecutive auto attacks restore 10tp!
WHOS GOT AN IDEA FOR DRK!?

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Originally Posted by Gooner_iBluAirJGR

Let's make it gimmicky!
Sword Oath: Additional effect: 3 consecutive auto attacks restore 10tp!
WHOS GOT AN IDEA FOR DRK!?

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Sole Survivor returns 20% of HP, MP and TP if the target dies within 15 seconds of casting but that target has to be a male Lalafell. Gimmicky enough?

I think the Warrior love is coming simply from 52-60 job ability additions being well implemented and integrated into their kit. It's a lvl60 job 'working as intended.' Many other jobs, not just the tanks, have new job abilities that are nice, but aren't well integrated (AST /cough) - penalizing or delaying their core responsibilities. These job abilities add weight that disrupts the equilibrium of the class.

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Originally Posted by Xenosan

I think the Warrior love is coming simply from 52-60 job ability additions being well implemented and integrated into their kit. It's a lvl60 job 'working as intended.' Many other jobs, not just the tanks, have new job abilities that are nice, but aren't well integrated (AST /cough) - penalizing or delaying their core responsibilities. These job abilities add weight that disrupts the equilibrium of the class.

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^This.

I don't read alot of hate on WAR at all. I think it's more appreciative that they have a kit that works so seamlessly.

Even if they are all even, the other tanks feel a bit clunky by comparison. There is a little bit of jealousy going on, but I haven't read alot of people screaming for WAR to get hit by the nerf bat. The other tanks just want a piece of the pie.

Alot of these threads are pretty worthless though....
Once we get another new raid and get to see its mechanics then we will really have a good vision of what is going on.

WAR is in a great place right now. DRK needs some support abilities and PLD could use some slight tweaks to make its support abilities more viable, but other than that the tank trinity isn't really broken.

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Originally Posted by Vurtney

Sole Survivor returns 20% of HP, MP and TP if the target dies within 15 seconds of casting but that target has to be a male Lalafell. Gimmicky enough?

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That'd be OP though. Sacrificing Lalafell already increases chances of wanted loot. As such, Sole Survivor will give 20% HP, MP, TP AND wanted loot!

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Originally Posted by Xenosan

I think the Warrior love is coming simply from 52-60 job ability additions being well implemented and integrated into their kit. It's a lvl60 job 'working as intended.' Many other jobs, not just the tanks, have new job abilities that are nice, but aren't well integrated (AST /cough) - penalizing or delaying their core responsibilities. These job abilities add weight that disrupts the equilibrium of the class.

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Though I don't play one, BRD totally understands what you mean!

Also when speaking of clunkiness.... BLM says hi!

I guess if you look at it, the classes that REALLY got AMAZING tools are down to WAR, WHM, SMN and SCH. You can add DRG since it got good tools but are annoying to implement I guess.

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Originally Posted by karateorangutang

WAR is in a great place right now. DRK needs some support abilities and PLD could use some slight tweaks to make its support abilities more viable, but other than that the tank trinity isn't really broken.

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That's pretty much my feelings on it. WAR is in an excellent place but DRK and PLD need some tweaks and streamlining to make their kits feel properly cohesive and synchronized.

My basic break down of changes I feel should happen.

PLD
- adjust emnity multipliers for RoH combo to be like WAR and (maybe?) DRK. 3.0/5.0 to 3.5/5.5.
- tweak utility abilities to add more raid value to them (ex: Cover affects physical and magic damage).
- better visual messaging for Divine Veil.
- give Sheltron a 2 second duration so it doesn't get consumed by an auto-attack accidentally.
- slightly better tp regen

DRK
- give them better/more raid utility
- get rid of ability redundencies (Unleashed/Abyssal Drain) by getting rid of Unleashed and replacing it with a new ability or giving it an additional effect.
- improve/rework Living Dead plus better visual messaging for it
- slightly better TP regen.
- fix the Darkside Aura vfx.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie-Amber

Basicly off tanks are just incase MT dies to take agro

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This sentence paired with your http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ent-dps-a-joke
post, shows how ignorant you are about tanking lol

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Originally Posted by Xenosan

These job abilities add weight that disrupts the equilibrium of the class.

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Clever, clever.

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Originally Posted by Tsolake

Shield Bash -> Cast Clemency

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In any content where you need to actually heal as a PLD, the enemies can't be stunned. If you're doing content where enemies can be stunned and you need to heal as PLD, then something has gone horribly wrong in the first place and it probably wouldn't matter.

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

That's pretty much my feelings on it. WAR is in an excellent place but DRK and PLD need some tweaks and streamlining to make their kits feel properly cohesive and synchronized.

My basic break down of changes I feel should happen.

PLD
- adjust emnity multipliers for RoH combo to be like WAR and (maybe?) DRK. 3.0/5.0 to 3.5/5.5.

vfx.

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This so much, maybe even give flash a bit more emnity gain, cuz at 60 I am struggling more than I like to hold aggro sometimes. Others go on about more dps, that is not something I care about, its actually making sure the mob doesn't go to someone else is my concern.

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Originally Posted by Xenosan

I think the Warrior love is coming simply from 52-60 job ability additions being well implemented and integrated into their kit. It's a lvl60 job 'working as intended.' Many other jobs, not just the tanks, have new job abilities that are nice, but aren't well integrated (AST /cough) - penalizing or delaying their core responsibilities. These job abilities add weight that disrupts the equilibrium of the class.

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Or scholar with Dissipation. I mean seriously WTF were they thinking?