Fellow WHMs: Hive Cane or Eso?

As the title reads.

What will you be doing??

What I mean is, should we stick with the Hive cane for Det and SS, or Eso cane for Pie and Crit?

I went with the chest. Gonna get ring this week, then save for cane.

I'm only saving for the weapon because it is the most expensive item on the list. I would prefer to get it out of the way first. 990 Esoterics, will you want to grind this later? :p

I guess my question really boils down to what stats are better for WHM? SS and Det, or Crit and Pie?

I'm really leaning toward SS and Det.

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Originally Posted by BushWookie

As the title reads.

What will you be doing??

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In the end it won't really matter whether you go to chest/weapon first or which staff you'll keep - it's all personal preference. I feel healing gear is not as critical as it is for a tank/dps. You can comfortability heal content and getting a slight stats up grade, won't be noticeable (but the accumulative effect is noticeable).

I think the only time I've really ever worried about stats on gear was when I was having trouble managing my mana during progression and prioritized piety gear over other non-pie gear. Having a bit more SS or Crit won't make or break a healer that it may do a DPS (who completely prioritizes the wrong stat).

Generally speaking, I'll probably prioritize chest as I'll be working on my relic in 3.1.

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Originally Posted by BushWookie

I guess my question really boils down to what stats are better for WHM? SS and Det, or Crit and Pie?

I'm really leaning toward SS and Det.

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I think the 80 det on the Hive cane makes it pretty much equal to the Eso cane. If I bought the Eso cane it would be for the piety upgrade. You're not gonna see much of a difference in healing with 2 weapon damage upgrade.

Hive cane. While the eso weapon is the best first upgrade for dps, a healer can do chest first, and i would recommend it if they already have a hive weapon.

I am sticking with hive weapon until relic is released.

If you have any intention of really improving your performance in Alexander Savage, grabbing the esoteric staff is going to give you a marginally better impact than getting any other piece of esoteric gear.

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Originally Posted by BushWookie

I guess my question really boils down to what stats are better for WHM? SS and Det, or Crit and Pie?

I'm really leaning toward SS and Det.

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I find stacking as much PIE as possible is more helpful than most other things. The benefit from DET is marginal at best CRIT is random but can be useful. SS eh still not sure this does much ultimately but helps a little. A SS buff from food is just easier to use so you can have other stats on your weapon but if you have the Hive Cane and want to use it you can probably do just fine if you'd prefer to go for other upgrades first. If yo don't have Hive Cane just get the Esoterics cane now.

As much as I like Determination, I'm severely doubtful the Determination from the Hive Cane is enough to outdo the 2 WD and 9 Mind gain from getting the Seraph Cane. Considering that the value of secondary stats for Dragoons have heavily decreased with Heavensward, White Mages (and all other Jobs) are likely in the same boat where primary stats and WD triumph over all.

Naturally, stat weights can't be applied to healers the same way they can be applied to a DPS, but food for thought. But if all you care about is booty...

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Originally Posted by BushWookie

I guess my question really boils down to what stats are better for WHM? SS and Det, or Crit and Pie?

I'm really leaning toward SS and Det.

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I personally have had more use out of Pie and Crit.

Hive weapon until Relic in 3.1 hands down.

The armor will actually mean something to me come 3.1, the weapon however does not and isn't enough of an upgrade from Hive Cane to warrant me blowing 3 weeks of Eso tomes on.

To me the only reason people should consider buying the eso weapon is if they don't have the Hive weapons, the difference is so minute that it is negligible when you put the tomes into upgrading i180 chest/the rest.

Yeah but 3.1 is gonna be a long while away (two-three months?). I'd rather have something I'd be able to clear the content with now versus in a few months. Doing content while it's fresh has that feel, you know?

Got my cane today, my MP increased by 400~ and my cure increase by roughly 200 hp. Seems well worth it to me. I will say however tonight in savage there was definitely a noticeable difference in my spell speed. To the point i was like, "man, this feels really slow" which i was extremely surprised about.

Got my cane also, nice boost on MP and Cure (200'ish I think). Well casual stuff for me anyway, so yeah doesn't really matter much. :p

Considering a person with full proto gordion sets and hive weapon that either replaces weapon for AF2 or hat+pants for AF2 (and why pants and not robe? crit is bad)

http://puu.sh/jq6KD.png

The only question that stays is, does 2 mnd and 57 det cover 2 WD? Iirc the old formula was 4 det = 1 mnd = 0.25 WD, if its still the same then 57 det = 3.5 WD, needs more testing regardless.

Personally i went for the setup i just explained for 2 reasons, both pants and hat are absolute bis. Not a single piece from alexander will replace them eventually while weapon is replaceable by both alexander savage weapon and relic in a near future.

Taking into consideration the stat weights for dragoon that were given by Dervy, and his determination theory that it scales off of weapon damage and to some extent character level, determination scaling is most likely NOT the same as it was before, and you can perform that test yourself just by switching your weapons around. Doing around 100 cures with both the Hive Cane and the Antiquated Seraph Cane, for me with my gear, I have a max Cure 1 value of 3050 with the Hive Cane, and a max Cure 1 value of 3080 with the ASC. Even with this slightly small sample size, we can come to the conclusion that the old determination values do not apply here, and that the 2 WD > 80 DET.

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Originally Posted by BushWookie

I guess my question really boils down to what stats are better for WHM? SS and Det, or Crit and Pie?

I'm really leaning toward SS and Det.

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It is personal preference, what works for you? My personal preference is Piety, Det, Crit. SS appeal is dying in my opinion now with AE instant heal, our instant Cure 2, Swift Cast insert heal here.. I've not seen anything that I can't heal fast enough on with our new skills.

Remember now SS increases the healing potency of DOT and above all HOT. If you're still using Regen frequently, and considering you will often need Medica 2, it should be interesting.

Still need more maths about all the stats anyway before going crazy about which stat to choose.

Btw, with the new lvl cap (60) they "reseted" the stat weight. When you had 600+ SS, the GCD/cast spell was around 2,25s/1,75s. Now with the same stat, it's like 2,46sGCD/1,93s cast spell. That's the same with Det, Crit and Pie. Meaning we'll need to add like 300 or 400 stat point into them to actually see any noticeable difference, approximatively the same difference we finally had when we got ilvl130.

For now, no matter your gear choice it will make 0 difference, it's like if we went to ilvl70 obscure light gear when the game launched. No need to go crazy with the stats! Better take the weapon even if it's not necessary, just for the WD that will always be meaningful!

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Originally Posted by Kelya

Remember now SS increases the healing potency of DOT and above all HOT. If you're still using Regen frequently, and considering you will often need Medica 2, it should be interesting.

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DOT = Damage over time, HOT = Heal over time.

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Originally Posted by Kelya

For now, no matter your gear choice it will make 0 difference, it's like if we went to ilvl70 obscure light gear when the game launched. No need to go crazy with the stats! Better take the weapon even if it's not necessary, just for the WD that will always be meaningful!

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This is slightly untrue, with the lower influence of secondary stats like DET / CRIT / SS, PIE then becomes the better choice as its value has remained constant, while the others will slowly become better with more WD and IL.

You should never forgo an ilvl upgrade because of offstats.

I believe the math guys worked it out that for ranged and healers going for chest/legs + hands/boots is actually a better boost for about the same amount of esoterics

ultimately the differences should be minimal but it should be at least a little reassuring to those uneasy about losing 80+ of a desirable stat from a hive weapon that buying a couple armor pieces is a bigger boost and you can pick pieces that are statistically desirable too

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Originally Posted by Nihility

I believe the math guys worked it out that for ranged and healers going for chest/legs + hands/boots is actually a better boost for about the same amount of esoterics

ultimately the differences should be minimal but it should be at least a little reassuring to those uneasy about losing 80+ of a desirable stat from a hive weapon that buying a couple armor pieces is a bigger boost and you can pick pieces that are statistically desirable too

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Can we get a source?

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Originally Posted by Litner

Can we get a source?

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Seconded. weapon damage is an extremely weighted stat so I'd want to see actual numbers to go with this claim.

'Ranged and healers' is an interesting group, at that. Why them, and why not tanks, casters or melee?

Also, 990 (weapon) vs 1'320 (major+minor armour) is not a similar amount of esoterics. You could almost get an accessory with the weapon with that many Esoterics, giving a major and minor armour piece only the advantage of being purchasable within three weeks, rather than four. :p

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Originally Posted by Raminax

'Ranged and healers' is an interesting group, at that. Why them, and why not tanks, casters or melee?

Also, 990 (weapon) vs 1'320 (major+minor armour) is not a similar amount of esoterics. You could almost get an accessory with the weapon with that many Esoterics, giving a major and minor armour piece only the advantage of being purchasable within three weeks, rather than four. :p

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I suspect it's people putting too much weight on offstats. I'm not sure on the heavensward stat weights but unless the ratios have changed, weapon would probably be worth it even at the old cost of 1300 tomes.

More than likely! People are also likely equating 'not optimal' to being worthless, which is a foolish thing to do. Sure, critical hit rating might not be the best secondary to shoot for as a White Mage, but that doesn't make its value nil. You're not going from, say, an imaginary secondary stat value of 100 to 0 by switching Det/SS to Crit/Pie. More like 100 to possibly 50, in raw throughput terms. :p

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Originally Posted by Raminax

You're not going from, say, an imaginary secondary stat value of 100 to 0 by switching Det/SS to Crit/Pie. More like 100 to possibly 50, in raw throughput terms. :p

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But then the main stat boost leaves you at a net of 200 or more, and the weapon atk rating bumps it up to 600 xP

...Not even that much of an exaggeration. If you could get +3 weapon atk, that's worth 21~24 MND, which is worth a metric sh**-ton of det/ss/crit. The only thing is I haven't seen any data on how this plays out in heavensward but I would be really surprised if atk isn't still king and main stat still far, far above secondaries.

In any case, I'm banking on weapon unless data comes out that shows it's changed.

Decided to run some tests, pretty much heal spam x50 w/o considering crits, making a average and dividing the difference between the stats to determine how much each affects healing points. This is pretty much what could be concluded.

5 det = 1 mnd
8 mnd = 1 WD

1 WD = +~39 heal points
1 mnd = +~4.7 heal points
1 det = +~0.9 heal points

With this, the average healing from swapping from hive to AF2 should increase 50 points. Meanwhile the setup i described on my previous post increases the average healing by 100 points. Obviously this doesn't take in account 2 things, crit rngeesus and limit break dmg. Crit is too random to be measured properly and LB, lol.

SS, DPS, DoT and HoT wise, I really don't feel like to beat the crap out of a dummy 200 times and watch dots tick another 400 to measure how much SS and det affects dots/hots :D

Ahh. The good thing about being a healer. We can put vanity first ;)

Meaning I'm getting my white mage gear first then I'll get my cane. But by then, we might have relics out.

I personally picked out the Eso Weapon(even though Gordian Staff is clearly the winner in stats). But I'm going to chuckle if Relic 3.1 is going to require Esoteric Weapons. But anyway, the bit of cures as well the extra damage(if you're Cleric Dancing) is quite useful in Savage. What I feel is that the body is outdone by Gordian and Prototye(Both are Spell Speed and Piety). Most of the Fabled gear is better than your Gordian Counterparts from what I've seen though which is a change up as Raid gear usually favored WHM over SCH.

I went for Chest first. This week, I'm going for boots. My feeling was that these two pieces contributed in large part to the WHM AF2 look.

Another reason I chose to delay getting the Antiquated Seraph Cane was because of the investment I had already put into trying to earn the Hive Cane. I completed BismarkEx, and then RavanaEx, and I've so far gotten 5 of the 10 totems I need to obtain the Hive Cane. Had I gone for the Antiquated Seraph Cane right away, I would've kind of devalued that past effort.

So, in the meantime, I'll gather esoterics for other pieces. Once I'll obtain my Hive Cane, I'll use it for a bit. I figure, as the weeks pass, that eventually I'll run out of other things to buy for esos and then buy the Antiquated Seraph Cane, or patch 3.1 will hit and I'll be able to obtain this "Primal" weapon thing which is supposed to succeed my Nirvana Zeta.

That is, as long as there doesn't seem to be a pressing need for the extra stats given by the Antiquated Seraph Cane. But so far my companions and I have managed past the Faust DPS check. I've yet to complete A1S, and it's true that it's very demanding in healing, but I want to see how the Hive Cane will help cope before I commit to an eso grind that'll have a payout only 3 weeks later (over which I'll likely glamour my Nirvana Zeta... so it'd only be for stats and not for looks).

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Originally Posted by mp-please

Decided to run some tests

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Thanks for sharing those

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Originally Posted by mp-please

Decided to run some tests, pretty much heal spam x50 w/o considering crits, making a average and dividing the difference between the stats to determine how much each affects healing points. This is pretty much what could be concluded.

With this, the average healing from swapping from hive to AF2 should increase 50 points. Meanwhile the setup i described on my previous post increases the average healing by 100 points. Obviously this doesn't take in account 2 things, crit rngeesus and limit break dmg. Crit is too random to be measured properly and LB, lol.

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1 WD = +~39 heal points
1 mnd = +~4.7 heal points
1 det = +~0.9 heal points

78 (WD) + 42.3 (MND) = 123  (Antiquated Seraph Cane)

51.7 (MND) + 51.3 (DET) = 111 (Legs + Head)

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Using your own table on page 2 of this thread and the values in your own post. Please check your own calculations.

I'm going with ->my<- BiS buy order for Eso:

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Esoteric Buy Order:
w1: -
w2: Orion Skirt
w3: Orison Hood
w4: Fabled Belt of Healing
w5: Orison Fingerless Glove
w6: Fabled Ring of Healing
w7: Fabled Earrings of Healing

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afterwards, depending on what I am missing from Savage, the priority will be:

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Weapon>Chest>Feet>Ring 2>Necklace>Bracelet

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Currently, as of week 3 i have 2 options:

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i200 weapon with i190 head and i190 pants:
Total:

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Weapon Damage: 102
Defense: 269
Magic Defense: 470
Vitality: 221
Mind: 240
Piety: 148
Spell Speed: 33
Critical Hit Rate: 193

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OR

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i190 weapon with i200 head and i200 pants:
Total:

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Weapon Damage: 100
Defense: 291
Magic Defense: 509
Vitality: 226
Mind: 242
Piety: 149
Spell Speed: 95
Determination: 137

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Now, I don't know what the new 3.0 stat weighs are (if it is was actually changed, I thought determination was only changed for auto attacks), but originally 1 wd is about 8 mind with 1 mind about 5~7 determination.

using my 2 build comparisons we have:

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i200 weapon with i190 head and i190 pants:
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Weapon Damage: +2
Defense: -22
Magic Defense: -39
Vitality: -4
Mind: -2
Piety: -1
Spell Speed: -62
Critical Hit Rate: +193
Determination: -137

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VS

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i190 weapon with i200 head and i200 pants:
Total:

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Weapon Damage: -2
Defense: +22
Magic Defense: +39
Vitality: +4
Mind: +2
Piety: +1
Spell Speed: +62
Critical Hit Rate: -193
Determination: +137

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So if the original formula is correct, 2 WD = 16 mind. That 16 mind - 2 mind =14 mind left "above" build 2. 137 determination/ 8 Determination(just in case its a little higher) = 17.125 mind. so 14 mind - 17 mind(round down cause i like clean numbers lol) = -3 Mind over Build 2.

So Build 2 with i190 Weapon with i200 Head and Legs has roughly a +3 Mind Advantage. (and it could be bigger since i used "8", if you use "7" its about +5, if you use "6" its about an +8~9, and if you use "5" its about +13. Hell, even if you used "9" its +1 and if you used "10" its just about break even LOL). Not only that, it also has an advantage in EVERY stat other than Critical Hit Rate, which the RNG Gods dont like me anyways lol...

Plus, Spell Speed has been buffed to enhance your HoTs. Which is a pretty good increase making Sp.Spd a nice stat to stack up on.

(note: again my math may be bad, so if other want to correct me please do lol but this is how i am going about my Esoterics)

So I went ahead and picked up the Eso cane and glamd the hive cane over it.

Best of both worlds.

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Originally Posted by Litner

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1 WD = +~39 heal points
1 mnd = +~4.7 heal points
1 det = +~0.9 heal points

78 (WD) + 42.3 (MND) = 123  (Antiquated Seraph Cane)

51.7 (MND) + 51.3 (DET) = 111 (Legs + Head)

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Using your own table on page 2 of this thread and the values in your own post. Please check your own calculations.

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You forgot to subtract the det from passing from hive to AF2

well, i know this is a bit early, but i calculated my personal bis 210 gear which i want to use and getting 918 crit (which is about 100 crit more than a sch can get by default) is reason enough for me to get the eso cane.