The consecutive loss bonus that stacks up every time you come in 2nd, or 3rd, is just badly done in my opinion. While it's definitely nice, i feel it something else should have been done with it.
As it is right now, getting the loss bonus is better than scattered wins. If you come in 2nd or 3rd enough, the bonus will stack up to 50%, where you will begin getting 300 Exp for every 3rd place, and 450 Exp for every 2nd place. It's nice, but the problem is, if you can keep that chain going by getting 2nd/3rd, you come out with a LOT more exp overall than if you were getting scattered wins in between a bunch of losses. It makes you feel like you should be playing for second or third any time that bonus begins to stack up, otherwise you lose it and are back to getting 200/300 per match until it racks up again.
I don't know if it would be too much exp if it stays at 50%, but I feel that the bonus should be turned into a consecutive play bonus, where as you play more and more matches for the day, the bonus racks up until it caps itself out.
Reward people for playing multiple matches, no matter the place they come in, not just those who keep losing. And especially not a bonus that gives a better reward through prioritizing constant second place, something much easier to get than 1st.
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08-04-2015, 09:50 AMDittoPvP Consecutive Loss Bonus. Turn it into a Consecutive Match Bonus.
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08-05-2015, 02:23 AMRisvertasashi
The incentives for stacking in the winning GC are already too strong, IMO.
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08-05-2015, 03:29 AMUrthdigger
The whole point of the consecutive loss bonus is so playing as a lesser GC doesn't completely shaft you.
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08-05-2015, 04:06 AMRisvertasashiIt still pretty much does. But not completely. Just a lot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Urthdigger
What I really wish they would do is make it so a single win doesn't wipe out the loss bonus. Make it like... total losses for the day, or something, and only applies to losing matches. -
08-05-2015, 06:04 AMDittoI'm on the 'lesser' GC. We get shafted anyway. Yet even still, there are often scattered wins throughout tons of losses, making it difficult to even get this bonus and actually keep it going.Quote:
Originally Posted by Urthdigger
We lose matches all the time, back to back. I'd like to rely on that loss bonus to stack up so I could actually make some reasonable progress with this grind to rank 50, but even going 20+ matches a day, it doesn't happen because there are scattered wins in between. Not nearly enough wins to make me not care about the bonus, but enough to actually make me feel like I have to play for 2nd once the bonus starts going, otherwise I get screwed over when it resets from a single win.
But see I'd rather not go trying to sabotage matches where we're in 1st just to keep my loss streak going. A consecutive match bonus would help everyone, without giving the feeling that they have to continuously aim for 2nd place or they get screwed in the long run. People on the lesser GC will benefit from it as well.
This is what our early week looks like;
http://i.imgur.com/ERc7Fhe.png
And another match;
http://i.imgur.com/USpoLEL.png -
08-05-2015, 08:01 AMFebrusI like this idea for a reason other than leveling: lobby vitality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ditto
I know that PvE is the focus of FFXIV, but, for those of us who like competitive matches, there's a huge problem when PvP lobbies die. New game modes or maps boost activity, but, after a couple of months, lengthy que times become standard. Pre expansion, some Frontline que times got close to an hour long. Not cool if you're working towards that fancy pants high level pvp gear.
Rewarding players for continuously playing pvp might be a good way of keeping the lobbies alive. Obviously, the best way to secure a PvP community is to provide new content. Personally, I think they should have a Frontlines Roulette that includes 3 different maps, just to keep things interesting, but something like an exp multiplier would be good in the short run... at least until we all start lvl capping. -
08-05-2015, 08:08 AMFebrusIf they took this approach, I think they would have to apply a sliding scale too it. Let's say, provide up to x3 multiplier (probably in percentages or something). So you can get a bonus that will run for every match that you lose up to 3 matches. if you win a match, you get negative one multiplier. So, if you lose 3, you're at +3 exp bonus. If you win your 4th match, you get negative one on your multiplier, so you'd be at +2. etc. I'm not sure if I'd prefer this or a flat exp bonus for consecutive matches though. In the interests of keeping people playing, it might be better to keep the bonus for simply playing PvP. Giving exp bonuses to losers is nice, but... people still get frustrated and rage quit. That's not good for the lobbies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Risvertasashi
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08-05-2015, 03:20 PMDittoEspecially when that bonus is so tiny compared to the total Exp you need, and isn't worth anything in the long run until that bonus stacks up. Yet when it does, you win a single match out of like 6 or 7 and it's all gone, and now you're back to getting raw losers exp.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
I've done 30 matches today, and of it, I've gotten around 9k exp in total (Roulette's 400 exp included in that). Not once could I actually make use of the loss bonus without it resetting before I could even cap it out. Just a way to keep the losers from getting completely shafted that doesn't actually work. -
08-06-2015, 01:26 AMRisvertasashiSure, there are alternative ways to do it. But, again, there's already far, far too much incentive for everyone (who cares about PvP) to go join the GC that wins most often. The last thing we need is to incentivize that further.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
A 'loser's bonus' turned into a 'playing bonus' that multiplies first place winnings would be incredibly broken. Top GC players now get 600 exp per match, AND all the other bonuses that come with winning? Yeah... no thanks... -
08-06-2015, 04:53 AMDittoThey can enjoy their 30+ minute queues then, while the other GC's are getting instant queues because, as you just said, people will go to the winning GC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Risvertasashi
Though it's not like they don't already do that anyway. Don't see the point you're trying to make at all. -
08-06-2015, 06:48 AMFebrusI agree. PvP exp is difficult to come by in the first place, and you need a ridiculous amount to cap. Imagine if they took the same approach to PvE. No one would play. That's probably one of the reasons why PvP lobbies die a couple of months after new content releases. People just get fed up that they're not getting anywhere. It's like running into a brick wall.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ditto
It would be a different story if there were ways to gain exp bonuses in battle, the same way we gain bonuses in dungeons, but, as it is right now, lvl'ing in PvP is more frustrating than anything. -
08-06-2015, 06:56 AMFebrusI understand your concerns. Obviously this would be a nightmare for matchmaking, but I'm not sure it would make much difference. Because the Alliances are made up of players from different worlds, there's no real way to tell which GC is consistently winning or losing. People who switch are usually just making snap judgments, and that kind of thing is gonna happen regardless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Risvertasashi
That being said, If SE took this approach they'd have to nerf the winner's bonus to keep things fair. Personally, I still think a sliding scale would work best, adding + / - values to how many matches you win or lose that scale for the day up to a maximum of 3 and reset overnight. -
08-06-2015, 06:58 AMRisvertasashiOn this particularly point I have to disagree. In PvP circles, people know where their GCs stand. And many that care about PvP will stack in the winning GC because, despite the horrid queue times they get, it's still the best way to advance and get the achievements.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
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08-06-2015, 07:55 AMFebrusWhen someone tells me that they "know where their GC stands," the first questions that run through my mind is: "How and on which world?"Quote:
Originally Posted by Risvertasashi
I'm sure there's a GC standing list (which is inaccurate unless they have tallied every match, which is impossible unless you work for SE), or you might look at the top ranked players and see which GC they are, but that doesn't guarantee wins.
Static pre-made groups are the ones who do the most leg work, but the average joe bases their decision on their personal win/loss record. Last night, I had 4 wins 1 loss. The night before was 5 losses 3 wins. Hardly consistent.
I'm not saying it can't happen. It did on my server. Flames/Mael were fairly even, but a ton of Flames swapped. I know this because it was a hot topic. People everywhere were talking about how they swapped, but, again, this was done on snap judgments rather than a public record of wins/losses. -
08-06-2015, 09:42 AMDittoPeople over exaggerate things a lot when their own GC starts to lose, but it isn't hard to notice who the losing GC is more often if you PvP around the clock and not just some static time every day. On Primal for example, Flames are the worst GC, and are looked at as the worst GC by anyone with knowledge on PvP. Part of this reason though is due to their instant queues, which is perfect for those just looking for a way to cap their weekly tomes and not take the match very seriously.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
http://i.imgur.com/3TzBTvn.png
This is my performance for 2 weeks of PvP (I just started after Seal Rock came out). We had a good winning streak on the night after the reset, being why I have 12 wins for the weekly performance right now. 1 of those is also from an early morning 8v8v8 Secure match I was in, which we also won.
Those win streaks don't come often at all though. And part of the reason is because people who think they're good enough to lead the alliance and call out nodes and such, think that defense is the absolute only way you can do anything. People wind up playing so passively that they have no idea what to do once they actually get into a fight. And then when we start losing while another GC is close to winning, they continue to try to play defensive in 3rd, when they SHOULD be going on the complete offense and camping points from whoever is second, to at least take 2nd from them and minimize losses.
They don't seem to understand that though and act as if we have everything to lose while already in 3rd. If it weren't for me being rank 37, going on 38 with them right now, I'd switch to a different GC in a heart beat. -
08-07-2015, 12:55 AMRisvertasashiOh, it's definitely not universally the same. Varies with datacenter and yes, probably over time. But, for example... for my DC... I have a friend that switched out of my GC for the one that wins most often. He said his first day was 6/1/1, and it basically continued like that. They lose occasionally, but he's still making far faster progress than I am (and still trying to talk me into switching).Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
...pretty much the only thing that stops me from switching is that I wouldn't keep my progress if I eventually turned back to my preferred-for-story GC. -
08-07-2015, 04:52 AMFebrusI get what you mean, and I generally agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ditto
My only point was that it's difficult to nail down an exact win/loss rate due to the nature of how teams are made up. On your server, Flames seem fairly consistent. On mine they're all over the place. Using personal stats to judge is common, but in PvP the alliance might be made up of players from multiple different worlds, so results are skewed. I can't say with certainty that Flames on my world are terrible, because, for all I know, it could be that all the bad players are coming from another world.
You can actually see this in action if you play at different times of the day. I sometimes only get time to play very early in the morning (like 2am). I find that the night owl group seems to dominate PvP, whereas groups I've played in during the day are utter crap. This is likely because I'm playing with players who are in a different timezone than me, but that would be hard to know for sure. -
08-07-2015, 04:58 AMFebrusI know what you mean. I considered switching back during the "great betrayal" (about a month after Frontlines first came out) on my world, when everyone flocked to Mael, mostly because, suddenly, my ENTIRE FC was in Mael and I couldn't que with any of them. Problem is, que times would suck unless pre-made, and I don't want to reset my pvp level. The gear is pretty slick for glamours, so I'm interested in capping now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Risvertasashi
The main problem that I have, and I outlined in a reply to Ditto, is that You never really know where the bad players are coming from. Are they on my world or someone elses? It's hard to tell. Even the end game leader boards don't really give the input you'd need to make a decision. Personally, I find that my win/loss rate with the Flames changes dramatically depending on the time of day; so, I'm forced to wonder if there are certain worlds that just have better players or know how to play the game mode better. -
08-07-2015, 05:11 AMFebrusI know EXACTLY what you mean with the passive gameplay. There is a time/place for playing defensively. If you have two or three points, sure, buckle down and fend off attackers, but if you only have one or you're trailing in points, it's time to man up and sound the charge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ditto
The problem is that in my GC they just don't seem to get how to do it. A lot of the time I see the team split up between two different nodes. You can win it, certainly, but it is so much more efficient to throw the bulk of the force into a single charge, completely swarm a point, leave a skeleton crew to stand watch, and then send the army onto the next point. It's also prudent to be picky on which points you charge. Those blue circles can intimidate enemies to avoid the nodes behind them, and don't go for S's if there's 48 people there, go for the three other points on the map that are undefended. Some teams get it, but most don't and they spread out all over the place. -
08-07-2015, 05:14 AMRisvertasashi
It could be a bunch of different variables, really. I'd bank on US evenings being the best time to PvP if I were in a GC where serious PvPers concentrate. But yeah, never guarantees a win... but it does increase your odds.
And even then, well... On my DC adders is considered the worst, but even they have a brutal premade that rolls from time to time. (Wish I could find a premade to run with...) -
08-07-2015, 05:34 PMFebrusWouldn't that be nice. I find premades are difficult to find for PvP given that it's not a frequently updated mode of the game, and lobbies tend to die quite quickly. I was in a PvP link shell for a while, but even that didn't get far. At this point, I'm just hoping I can claw my way to lvl 50 before seize dies out like frontlines did... but I still have 19 lvls to go, so I'm not sure how the odds will be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Risvertasashi
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08-08-2015, 02:45 AMDittoI have 11 more ranks to go, 10 after I burn through 39 today. On my server, which funny enough is actually your server too, Flames doesn't seem to be a popular option for PvP premades. I know a few friends who are in an Adder premade, but I got stuck as Flames so I didn't join them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
I figure if I can get almost 10k experience a day, I'll be rank 50 in a little less than 2 weeks. -
08-08-2015, 03:11 AMFebrusGrats! And I noticed lol, though, I don't think I've run into you in any matches that I remember =/Quote:
Originally Posted by Ditto
Flames are definitely not common for pre-mades. I'm pretty sure Excalibur and Hyperion have regular premades (I ran into a few groups yesterday that were discussing it). Some of them are pretty good, but I haven't found anyone like that on our server. I'm thinking another LS might be the way to go.
I try to shoot for a level a day. The goal is good, since my win/loss is pretty even (as of this week, so far, I'm sitting evenly at 13-1st. 13-2nd and 7-3rd), but the problem I have is that I don't usually get to sit down and really farm it out. I'm my FC's resident tank, and I know a few outsiders who pull me for raids, so it's rare that I get to really get my grind on. Yesterday was glorious, but not common. -
08-08-2015, 07:46 AMDittoI'm in a Flames LS but it isn't too active, and they don't really seem to run a premade or even talk much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
http://i.imgur.com/cyhHygS.png
My weekly progress so far. Yesterday was beautiful, won more matches in a single day than I've seen in a few days combined. 10,100 Exp total from yesterday alone.
I've pretty much given up on PvE until I'm rank 50, so I'm grinding it daily. I'll get my alex normal loot sometimes too, but only if it's with a premade group where I know I'll get my item. Otherwise I don't bother. Have everything I want already anyway.
I feel like the more time I put into PvP, the faster I'll be 50, and the faster I wont have to worry about this stupid grind again. Then I'll be able to enjoy the PvE side again for as long as I like. -
08-09-2015, 03:08 AMFebrusI'm trying to spend most of my time in PvP at this point, but, sometimes the FC give me a call and I gotta tank stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ditto
You're rolling more weekly matches than me so far, but I'm kinda shocked we've never run into each other. I'm more shocked to see that our win/loss rate is so different, especially since we're on the same server. I don't have a screen shot, but I'm rolling an almost even split between 1st and 2nd place. I think I was at 15-1st, 13-2nd, and 7- 3rd, as of last night.
Last night's wins were truly amazing, as you said. It was really nice to see the GC come together and play smart and as a team. Only lost 1 match.
So far, I've been rolling over 40% 1st place victories. That % might die when I get more matches, but the goal is to stay over 40% -
08-09-2015, 07:25 PMMonomanPretty much describes flames for my world. We had about 450 points to maels 300-350 with adder being in the lead with about 600-650. mael and adder were fighting for 2/3 nodes in the north (both B) with my grand company holding the third on the land bridge and a fourth near south spawn (both A). I suggested dropping the A rank beside the other two since we would finish second with one and we could use the north one as bait for adders chasing a retreating mael to launch an attack behind adders through caves. My team opted for splitting our forces 50/50 and defending the nodes that tin foiling gave us till the end and we actually won. Had the other grand companies even looked our way, we would have easily gone to last.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
I might just have to join the rest of the flames and use the pray emote at inactive nodes. -
08-10-2015, 02:40 AMFebrusI've been there lol. Sometimes you just get lucky. When two GC's have it out for one another and just power focus each other you can luck out as the 3rd GC, but it is painful to watch when you know that, with the slightest of changes, your game can go to crap in 10s flat. It's almost worse, honestly. Because, lucky moments like that encourage the team to try the same nonsense again, and it does not work all the time. Splitting forces is way too much of a gamble when both enemy GC's stand to screw you over.Quote:
Originally Posted by Monoman
I had a terrible streak of matches last night for this very reason. Apparently, my GC lost their minds last night and decided it would be a good idea to provoke BOTH of the enemy GC's and keep our forces thinly split up between 2 points. The fact that we were getting hit on both sides kept our forces split the entire match, and there was no way to recover. It was awful. I had to bail. I was worried the insanity would ruin my win / loss ratio.