Please remove Shuffle being able to draw the same card.

it's stupid

why does a button that exists to replace a card you do not want have the capability to draw the exact same card you wanted to replace

this would be okay if shuffle was on like a 5 second cooldown but it's on a 60 second cooldown. a button you can only use every minute should not have a 1 in 6 chance of doing absolutely nothing.

I would like shuffle to be on a much shorter cooldown.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

I would like shuffle to be on a much shorter cooldown.

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They've already lowered the cooldown to be within reason now, it doesn't need to be shorter. 1 shuffle every 2 draws is enough.

Hmmm?? Shuffle is pot luck if u draw the same card just click the buff off to allow draw to activate its cooldown the thing is Shuffle is not a problem because its fun and also horrible i had moments where i thought NOOOOOOO bad card.... but as soon as i draw that card i needed i FEEL DAMN EPIC

Problem with the current card system is that the recast timers is too long and need to be shorted down ALOT the card mechanics are fine but the cooldowns are not i would much prefure this to happen

Royal Road / Spread / Shuffle All need rework

=Royal Road (Auto activate Duration)
Burn a card and draw another card (we need to be actively drawing cards)
Duration effect only words with Draw

=Spread (Auto activate Expand)
Save a card and draw another card (same as royal road)
AoE effect only works with Spread card

=Shuffle
Send a card back to the deck and draw another card

= Draw
20 sec cooldown

This will allow us to have more control over our cards and to also bang out more cards and stay active at all times so in theory it should work like this

(card name) << New card drawn

Draw > Bole > Royal Road > Royal Road (Balance) > Spread > Spread (Ewer)
Now with this i have Balance in spread with AoE and Ewer in Draw with Double time.... now i can use my cards how i like i can use balance to increase dps at a certain time or throw ewer or try my luck and shuffle Ewer to attempt to get something else

with this we can be more of an astrologian rather then a spam heal bot whilst waiting for card cooldown to pop up.... AST is a very very active healer and needs there cards to be very active aswell

Need 1 sec recast time.
So i can "shuffle" for realsssss lol jk its fine the way it is.

ummm because you return the card you picked back to the deck... so there really is a chance that you pick up the same card.

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Originally Posted by rawker

ummm because you return the card you picked back to the deck... so there really is a chance that you pick up the same card.

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which is stupid.

imagine if Sentinel had a 1 in 6 chance of providing you with 0% defense reduction. Or if Sheltron had a 1 in 6 chance of making the next attack inflicted upon you guaranteed to not be a block.

I mean, you're just performing an ability, right? so there really is a chance you'll have a brainfart and fail to use it properly.

They should make it so that you DO NOT draw the same things three times in a row, even with shuffle in between. It's bad enough that the potency of our buffs is pitiful, laughable, and just "so minuscule", but we have to deal with the dumb randomness of it.

That is just a (very)bad case of rng.

Now if you guys/gals get 6 cards from a deck and follow what the ability's dscription states, which is to return the current card you are holding and draw a new one, please do tell me if you have a
0% chance that you'll pick the card you returned.

Nice try on the PLD analogy though.

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Originally Posted by rawker

That is just a (very)bad case of rng.

Now if you guys/gals get 6 cards from a deck and follow what the ability's dscription states, which is to return the current card you are holding and draw a new one, please do tell me if you have a
0% chance that you'll pick the card you returned.

Nice try on the PLD analogy though.

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And the entire argument of this thread is that the ability should not HAVE that chance.

Do you just live in your own fantasy word where a thread's contents are completely different to what you see?

Enjoy thy Ad hominem.

Anyway, I guess I've stayed way too long on this thread. If you get what you want, then good. If not, deal with it.

There's a reason I shuffle.. I DON'T WANT THAT CARD!!

AST isnt necessarily an easy class to play (primarily the RNG aspect of it). I believe that shuffle is fine how it is. It's to make it so that you have to adapt with what RNG gives you. For example: I would draw a Ewer (full mana mind you), spread it, draw another ewer, shuffle it, get another ewer, toss it on the tank because I absolutely dont want it, draw another ewer, end up royal roading this one, finally get a point where I get 3-4 cards I can use before another string of Ewers all within one dungeon run. 2/3 of my cards were Ewers.

You work with what you're given: That's the beauty of the class*. I try to communicate with my tanks to see if they want an extra small TP regen boost with Spires if we dont have a BRD or MCH or I throw it on a melee dps just to push it out. It makes healing less boring when you have to make snap decisions during battle, but I would never let a Spire or Ewer expire without giving it to someone if I had no other option.

*within reasonable limits considering that the cards as they are could use a pinch of a boost.

I tried playing my level 51 AST again today and got it to 52. I refuse to believe the cards are random at all. I got Spire 6 times in a row on Dusk Vigil, then it was a mix back and forth between Spear and Spire again. I'd get Spire, shuffle, and Spire again. After the 6th time I got Spear, shuffle and up comes Spire again. The entire dungeon I didn't get the Balance a single time, Ewer around twice and arrow a few times, every other time was Spear and Spire with Bole mixed in a few times as well. If it was truly random then that would be impossible. I got Spire so many times I was about to open a support ticket. Was the same thing in the other dungeons I did when going up to 52. The Balance is SO rare, I might get it at most 2-3 times on a dungeon and that's it, yet Spear and Spire are over and over and over.

I do like however that draw is 30 seconds now as that's helpful, and Ewer refreshing MP instead of reducing the cost of it also is a help as I can Spread that for later should MP get low.

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Originally Posted by 416to305

I do like however that draw is 30 seconds now

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What do you mean now? Draw has always been 30 seconds...

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Originally Posted by VitalSuit

What do you mean now? Draw has always been 30 seconds...

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Oh I thought it was 45 seconds when it first came out, seemed like I was always waiting for it to refresh before but maybe because I was anxious since it was new. This time when I tried it it seemed like it was off cool down all the time without me ever having to wait. Maybe it's also because I'm doing level 50+ stuff now so more busy with actual healing vs the 30-50 stuff where you don't really need to heal non stop, so more time to watch the cool down.

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Originally Posted by 416to305

Snipity

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You only have 6 cards. How random can it get? Just even a simple RNG with 6 options is bound to have repeats of the same number just because of how limited it is. Shuffle/Draw in a sense is purely RNG with no restrictions. :P

I'd rather they just buff the cards to make them better.But who says we can't have both?

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Originally Posted by Violin

You only have 6 cards. How random can it get? Just even a simple RNG with 6 options is bound to have repeats of the same number just because of how limited it is. Shuffle/Draw in a sense is purely RNG with no restrictions. :P

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Right except what I said was Spire came up 6 times in a row, then Spear, Spire, Spear. The Balance didn't come up one single time, so how is that random? If it was truly random then it would be an actual mix of the 6. There's no way to get Spear and Spire that many times and not the Balance once.

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Originally Posted by 416to305

Right except what I said was Spire came up 6 times in a row, then Spear, Spire, Spear. The Balance didn't come up one single time, so how is that random? If it was truly random then it would be an actual mix of the 6. There's no way to get Spear and Spire that many times and not the Balance once.

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Except that's not how random works.

https://davidlyness.com/blog/wp-cont.../05/random.png

Set B is more random than Set A.

What you are proposing is that a card selection should be influenced by the previously drawn card(s) (you had Spire before, so we "shouldn't" get Spire again) - which is not random.

Sometimes you just draw Spire 5 times in a row. Shit happens.

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Originally Posted by 416to305

Right except what I said was Spire came up 6 times in a row, then Spear, Spire, Spear. The Balance didn't come up one single time, so how is that random? If it was truly random then it would be an actual mix of the 6. There's no way to get Spear and Spire that many times and not the Balance once.

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Random doesn't mean "get different things every time". Random is random and sometimes you can get the same outcome many times in a row. We may perceive that as "unlucky", but it is still very much random.

For the people who are talking about computer RNG: If you have six actual cards to draw, and you shuffle one back into the deck, there's really no practice currently in card games/fortune telling that would give you the same card again. You don't shuffle the whole deck for one card. Unless the astrologian has a deck full of the same six cards copied four times or something, which strikes me as staggeringly dumb. There's no way for this to happen and your character not to seem like a total idiot. Which is reason enough for me to say this is definitely an oversight, to say nothing of the frustration one must feel in using an ability which has an aspect that makes no sense.

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Originally Posted by Kumori_Kumo

For the people who are talking about computer RNG: If you have six actual cards to draw, and you shuffle one back into the deck, there's really no practice currently in card games/fortune telling that would give you the same card again. You don't shuffle the whole deck for one card. Unless the astrologian has a deck full of the same six cards copied four times or something, which strikes me as staggeringly dumb. There's no way for this to happen and your character not to seem like a total idiot. Which is reason enough for me to say this is definitely an oversight, to say nothing of the frustration one must feel in using an ability which has an aspect that makes no sense.

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Splitting hairs at this point, but 6 cards isn't really much of a "deck". I actually would expect there to be 3-4 of each card.

Regardless, I think it would be nice if shuffle prevented you from drawing the card you just returned, but I don't think it is wrong to draw the same card in a row (if you haven't used shuffle).

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Originally Posted by HeavensSword

Splitting hairs at this point, but 6 cards isn't really much of a "deck"

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A deck of cards being larger is a design to a) give more hands to more players, and b) make it hard for players to predict the next card. Seeing as this particular 'game' has only one player (the astro) who is also the dealer, it actually doesn't require a bunch of cards; it's more of a wheel-of-fortune type situation where there's only a few possibilities and the singular or two card draws are the trick.

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I don't think it is wrong to draw the same card in a row (if you haven't used shuffle).

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And when you store/use a card like that, it's a slightly different symbol, meaning it's probably some manner of token instead of the card itself. It might be a slight stretch, but I could see a Royal Road being cause for an actual shuffle after you've placed a marker, especially in a game with this few cards.

3 1 1 4 1 1 4 3 1 3 1 1 2 6 3 6 6 6 6 5 1 5 4 5 6 5 6 3 1 5 4 3 4 2 6 5 2 2 2 1 4 3 3 4 1 3 2 4 3 6
4 2 3 6 4 5 3 1 1 5 2 5 4 2 4 1 3 3 6 3 6 3 4 1 5 2 3 4 5 5 6 6 1 6 1 2 4 4 6 1 3 6 5 4 1 3 6 2 2 4 5 2

1 - Spire 19/100
2 - Bole 14/100
3 - Balance 19/100
4 - Arrow 16/100
5 - Spear 14/100
6 - Ewer 18/100

This is just a sampling of 100 card draws/shuffles when off CD. I mean it's pretty much even in a larger pool. The problem is that when you get stuck with a small sample that is filled with majority of one number it feels like it's not random.

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Originally Posted by 416to305

I tried playing my level 51 AST again today and got it to 52. I refuse to believe the cards are random at all. I got Spire 6 times in a row on Dusk Vigil, then it was a mix back and forth between Spear and Spire again. I'd get Spire, shuffle, and Spire again. After the 6th time I got Spear, shuffle and up comes Spire again. The entire dungeon I didn't get the Balance a single time, Ewer around twice and arrow a few times, every other time was Spear and Spire with Bole mixed in a few times as well. If it was truly random then that would be impossible.

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Based on the definition of random and the mechanics of the cards your example is 100% how random works. If you get to manipulate the cards to get what you want when you want then that would be the cards not being random.

Food for thought: The chance of not drawing the Balance ten times in a row is mathematically greater than the chance of getting a Freecure proc when you cast Cure.

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Originally Posted by Kietsu

Food for thought: The chance of not drawing the Balance ten times in a row is mathematically greater than the chance of getting a Freecure proc when you cast Cure.

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Until you throw in your number of casts of cure one compared to drawing a card every 30 seconds.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

Until you throw in your number of casts of cure one compared to drawing a card every 30 seconds.

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I didn't say frequency. I'm just saying that people seem to think not getting what you want over the course of five minutes is completely impossible and clearly the RNG is broken, when it's honestly fairly probable.

It's a game. When do you use Shuffle? When you don't want that card. Allowing shuffle to draw the the same card again directly conflicts with the only usage scenario of the skill.

There are often times in a game when you just need to say fuck physics, fuck statistics, fuck logic, this is what makes it more fun.

It always baffled me that they would give us a CD that had a chance to literally do nothing but go on a 60 (or previously 90) second CD.

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Originally Posted by Zfz

It's a game. When do you use Shuffle? When you don't want that card. Allowing shuffle to draw the the same card again directly conflicts with the only usage scenario of the skill.

There are often times in a game when you just need to say fuck physics, fuck statistics, fuck logic, this is what makes it more fun.

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Thanks everyone that makes sense when you look at it like that. I guess it's more the post I'm quoting here is the logic I have as well. While I get it's supposed to be truly "random", it is a game we are playing after all. So I think to me I just feel like if I Draw, get Spire and don't want it and then burn a 60 second cool down on Shuffle, I just feel that you shouldn't be able to get that same card again. Yes in a truly random world you could, but it's a game where like the post above said, the ability Shuffle is because you don't want that card. It's not like you can shuffle every draw in which case it wouldn't be so bad. I just am finding that there's many times I'm not using the cards at all because I draw, get Spear or something and have no idea if that would benefit anyone, so just RR it or shuffle especially when you get Ewer or something right at the start of a pull.

I just really wish the actual healing spells were on par with WHM or a bit better since we still are missing a lot WHM has. I get it that the cards are supposed to make up for it, but the reality is that they don't at all. If I'm drawing Spire 5 times in a row or a mix with it and Spear type thing and the party is taking big time damage, I don't see how those cards make up for it at all. Spire doesn't help me when my AoE Aspected Helios can't reach the whole party because the range is lower than Medica II, just like Spear can't help me when someone takes big damage and I have to use Benefic II pretty much twice where a Cure II with the Medica II already on would be fine. Especially when things are really bad, there's no card that will be a game changer. I just wish they were more healer related like an AoE card that reduces damage received by 10% for 10 seconds, or things like that. AoE that does a 10 second regen effect without creating aggro or I don't know. Just things more related to actual healing that you'd use, vs things like the Arrow where you speed someone up that probably won't even notice it is on them and might be taking a drink break or something.

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Originally Posted by Zfz

It's a game. When do you use Shuffle? When you don't want that card. Allowing shuffle to draw the the same card again directly conflicts with the only usage scenario of the skill.

There are often times in a game when you just need to say fuck physics, fuck statistics, fuck logic, this is what makes it more fun.

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Whole heartedly agreed. When you use shuffle and get the same card it basically wastes a CD. The whole reason to shuffle is because we don't want the card, and just getting it back is a slap in the face. =/ It's like going to a restaurant, ordering a hamburger and getting a veggie burger instead. Then returning it back stating that you ordered a regular meat-hamburger and they go back into the kitchen and come back with the same freaking veggie burger.

The one thing that's cool is at least there's lots of room for potential improvement. Like there's tons of things they can do to change it up, whether it's different cards, changing how RR works, not letting the same cards come up as much, etc. Like I said, for me it's more what the cards do, I just wish they were more obvious or healing related. Like I love when you are playing in Nocturnal and you do Aspected Helios and you see that Nocturnal Field surround everyone, it's such a cool effect. Or even Cure III as WHM which I've been using a lot of lately for some reason, just because I love how it looks, almost like raining down stars over everyone close to you and healing them. I wish the cards were more like that, vs using the Arrow on someone and not really seeing it do anything. There's just something cool about seeing an AoE healing or shield effect and seeing the whole party with the arrow up buff.