Good Tanks or Bad Tanks

I am pretty new to this game...been playing just about a month and have a WHM around lvl 45 (yes I play a lot and am completely addicted).

I have been doing both of the daily roullette's and have noticed a huge variation in the amount of healing I have to do for the tank. I understand they are up close and personal with the enemies we are fighting but some of them barely need any healing and I can turn on my cleric stance and rip some enemies myself. Other tanks require me to spam that cure almost constantly.

Do some just have really bad armor or are they not using proper techniques to dodge enemy attacks? I know I tend to scoochie when the orange light appears under my feet since most of my armor is nice breathable cotton and I can die in like an instant if not careful.

I was just curious what other healers think about the tanks in these dungeons.

Thanks,
Bridget

90% of survivability (on random mooks) is simply better armor.

The rest is well popping CDs on a big pack.

It is very possible to be a bad tank...but tanks simply do not have enough tools to make a huge difference between a "decent" tank and "good" tank and a "world class" tank.

Basically at that point it is the tank actually taking more damage, and trying to more damage.

As a PLD main, during dungeons I can cycle my buffs for covering nearly 100% of the time spent taking damage while still reserving big buffs for big damage (this is at about level 50). My hp rarely dips and dives in dungeons except with healers (like myself) who try to pump every bit of DPS when they can, but I also prioritize survivability as a tank and only add in DPS accessories if/when appropriate, whereas often times I'll find I'm healing tanks in full DPS accessories their first time through a new instance at minimum level/iLevel. The ladder are the tanks that slow down runs and occasionally cause wipes (or with inexperienced healers, can cause failures).

Another thing I'm seeing right now is an issue with DRKs--not the job itself, but the fact that it's a fun/attractive job means that there's a lot of people playing it who have never tanked before or may not even have interest in learning the role. At your level, the biggest noticeable difference between a good and bad PLD is their ability to manage aggro, but for DRK the difference is squishiness.

Lastly there's WARs, who have a deep hp pool for lower mitigation, but also self heals. So it's not unusual for their hp to fluctuate a bit more. Though at higher levels they can maintain their high hp with very little dipping and diving when played right (in your average dungeon).

I wouldn't go as far as saying that tanks don't have enough tools to excel. A tank that uses cooldowns for tank busters is infinitely better than someone who just pops them at random. And a tank that actually uses cooldowns at all is a fair bit better than the noobs who claim that spamming Flash is stressful for the Tank role. :p

But, generally speaking, considering you do daily roulettes, there are a lot of factors to consider. For example:

- Tank mitigation is spread rather unevenly until lvl50. Paladins have a fair amount of decent cooldowns early on, but lack a tanking stance until lvl40. Meanwhile, Warriors and Dark Knights get their tanking stance at lvl30 already, but Warriors are kinda lacking in the cooldown department, while Dark Knights are sandwiched inbetween the two.
- DPS! The faster enemies die, the less damage the tank will take. If two out of three enemies in a trash pack die while a defensive cooldown is still up, damage intake will remain fairly low throughout the pull. If none of them die before the defensive cooldown expires, damage intake can jump sharply. Similarly, some DPS can inflict Stuns and other debuffs with their regular DPS rotation; that counts for something.
- General player skill. Obviously, a tank that eats every single instance of avoidable damage will be significantly harder to heal compared to one who dodges most things.

I guess it does make sense that armor for the tank classes have some variations for different attributes or buffs. I know it try to pick the stuff with the bonus to mind, piety, or determination so I can boost my healing as much as possible.

I try to determine how much healing our tank needs so I know to reserve all of my MP for healing or not though a couple times while watching the hp bar on the tank and casting cure after casting regen on them they take so much damage they die. I am not sure what else I could if I dedicate my services to the healing process but they are in the middle of 5 enemies getting beat to hell. I always throw out protect and if the dungeon is high enough level try to do stoneskin.

Oddly enough in the lower levels it is not a big deal but in the higher levels I can run out of mp pretty fast since regen can't always keep up.

Thanks for the responses!

Bridget

According to my healers there is a MASSIVE difference between equally geared tanks, depending on the player. One MAJOR problem is back strikes. Some mobs seem to have backstab-style attacks, and when you get hit from behind, mobs hit more, harder, and/or you cant block/parry it. Lots of tanks in AOE situations dont really make sure they face their front to all mobs (as its easy to lose track), or when repositioning they run with their back turned, instead of backstepping, leading to one massive spike of backstabs. Not all mobs do it (some are casters who dont care obviously), but along with decent stuns, good CD usage and good timing on dodges, the difference in healing required can be huge.

I am a main WHM, and have been having one Lv.50 class/job (CNJ/WHM) for over an active year and a half. So I saw a rainbow colours of tanks.. At a certain point when I had only bad Tanks, I decided to try out Tanking classes. Now I'm a i178 (Lv.60 WAR) & a Lv.55 WHM. I love my healers I never try to make them just heal, I am a white mage.. I know how boring continous healing is.

I never rage at my healers, I always 'dance' to avoid most damage.. I can't tell you how happy I was when a white mage said to me: "Ivory I love healing you! You're the best Tank I ran with in months!"

As I say, a Tank is who loves his/her healer & protects his team.

If you have a squishy tank, take a glance to their equipment. Was in AV healing the other day with my 51+ SCH and we barely passed the first boss. I was running out of mana on constantly chain healing the tank and I thought that it really hadn't been that bad earlier when I'd been there. I took a glance to tanks gear and all her items were 35 to 40, with occasional item on 30. Since she was openly alluding I'm bad heals, I asked her to humor me and tell what her iLvl is as by my calculation, it couldn't be even 40, AV is level 49 place. She was a good sport of it though, when he took a look on it she profusely apologised telling she had been leveling so quick lately that she hadn't realised her gear was lacking behin, and offered to take the leave penalty so we can get proper tank. ^^ (We ended up vote abandoning, though)

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Originally Posted by Sida

She was a good sport of it though, when he took a look on it she profusely apologised telling she had been leveling so quick lately that she hadn't realised her gear was lacking behin, and offered to take the leave penalty so we can get proper tank. ^^ (We ended up vote abandoning, though)

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People who let their gear take a backseat, are bad players in-general. There isn't any beating around the bush on that subject. They are what they wear, and the best thing is they can control that. It's telling the party they don't care about their performance, and likely a telling sign they will have to get carried by a healer, and of course no one wants to have to deal with that. Of course if they are busy FATEing to power level and not upgrade gear, well I don't know what to say.

That is the reality, someone has to say it.

An undergeared tank can be troublesome, especially if they have trouble using proper cooldowns. I had a tank once in Stone Vigil that was so squishy, his health chunked to critical almost instantly in the pack with three dragon aevis, and couldn't survive Isgebind's Frost Breath.

You should take the time to familiarize yourself with the different CD's that tanks have, and learn what the buff icon looks like. When you see strong mitigation CD's going up like Rampart, Sentinel, Vengeance, and the like, you'll know the tank is going to take reduced damage for a bit, and that's generally the safest time to sneak in some Cleric Stance time so long as the tank is healthy. Watch out for the occasional tanks that eat avoidable AoE damage, some of these abilities can hit extremely hard, or apply troublesome debuffs, or even knock the tank back, causing them to pull extra mobs nearby.

The more you play, the more you'll see what tanks are doing right, and what they're doing wrong, since most of the time, it directly affects you as a healer. Tanks that secure aggro quickly, position packs tightly together, keep up proper mitigation, dodge AoE's and properly interrupt enemy abilities are awesome, enjoy it when you're partied with them.

That is a good idea too. I found a configuration option (hopefully also on PS4) to enlarge the buff/debuff icons too and that might make it easier to recognize since I am playing on a TV that is about 8 or 9 feet away from me and sometimes the icons and text is hard to read.

I try to get a peek at gear sometimes but it seems many like to speed run and even leave me behind at times. this is one reason I clearly announce when I have never been into a dungeon but still I have had them run ahead and off my mini map. This prevents me from dilly dallying...that is for sure...sigh

I have had some awesome tanks too...I even had one tell me to turn on cleric and let it rip since they would probably need minimal healing in one dungeon. That was very cool since I am practicing the on/off with cleric stance and moved it on my hotbar to make it very easy to flip on and off.

Thanks for the tip Seryl!

-Bridget

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Originally Posted by Niyuka

According to my healers there is a MASSIVE difference between equally geared tanks, depending on the player. One MAJOR problem is back strikes. Some mobs seem to have backstab-style attacks, and when you get hit from behind, mobs hit more, harder, and/or you cant block/parry it. Lots of tanks in AOE situations dont really make sure they face their front to all mobs (as its easy to lose track), or when repositioning they run with their back turned, instead of backstepping, leading to one massive spike of backstabs. Not all mobs do it (some are casters who dont care obviously), but along with decent stuns, good CD usage and good timing on dodges, the difference in healing required can be huge.

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This.

I'm primarily a tank in every MMO, and sometimes a healer.

When I heal poor positioning by the tank is the bane of my existence - and being mostly a tank, I can often spot the what/why right away. Its very frustrating watching someone else do your role wrong. Of course by the same token, as a primary tank, its very handy to be healing some times and see what other tanks are up to - and learn from it.

Its not that I'm better, but that by playing both roles I am able to see when others do things right or wrong - often easier to see it on someone else than on yourself.

Almost all mobs can take advantage of having your back to them in some manner or another in almost every MMO. It is usually the odd mob that doesn't have this programmed in, or perhaps a tank class that is 360-directionally-crit-immune. I just always presume that all of them can one-shot me if they get behind me, and when I tank I will do anything I can to keep them off my back.

That said, I do run through and spin around - mouse and keybind users (people who don't click buttons, and don't keyboard turn) can do this - I've yet to encounter an MMO that doesn't give me an instant spin. And if done right you will at most risk a side hit (if something is worrysome, you can do it in a circle-strafing spin - turning as you kite around in a tight circle so that they are running as you go from side to front facing). I run through and spin around because this puts the back of the mobs to the entire group except for me - and many DPS classes benefit from being behind. I think FFXIV might have a DPSer that wants to be on the side, and that dude... is on his own and will have to work with me putting their back to the rest of the group. :)

Lots of MMOs have issues with mobs and latency causing them to shift behind you. Some even do this on purpose. And this is where unexperienced tanks mess up - not keeping an eye on that and continuing to move to keep them in front.

If I get placed with a horrible tank, I refuse to quit, it's not fair on the DPS, they que for ages to get into dungeons and I won't see them hard done by just because the tank is bad. Even going as far as having to tank and heal myself just to get them through to the end.

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Originally Posted by GeekMatt

Another thing I'm seeing right now is an issue with DRKs--not the job itself, but the fact that it's a fun/attractive job means that there's a lot of people playing it who have never tanked before or may not even have interest in learning the role. At your level, the biggest noticeable difference between a good and bad PLD is their ability to manage aggro, but for DRK the difference is squishiness

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I noticed this somewhat before but just had the hardest time at the first boss in the Fractal Continuim. We wiped 2 times and only beat the boss finally thanks to an monk that lasted to the end by himself.

I have never had this problem before in this instance. I'm low i170 AST. The DRK had grit active. Is there another damage buff they should have active. I can't figure out why we had so much problem. I even had an extended bole on him the first try and an enhanced bole the second. Including Time Dilation and Celetial Opposition.

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Originally Posted by Galadrium

I noticed this somewhat before but just had the hardest time at the first boss in the Fractal Continuim. We wiped 2 times and only beat the boss finally thanks to an monk that lasted to the end by himself.

I have never had this problem before in this instance. I'm low i170 AST. The DRK had grit active. Is there another damage buff they should have active. I can't figure out why we had so much problem. I even had an extended bole on him the first try and an enhanced bole the second. Including Time Dilation and Celetial Opposition.

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Grit is our tanking stance. For damage output and access to certain defensive CDs, your DRK should have had Darkside running as well. For damage-reducing CDs, we get the following:

• Shadowskin - this is our default CD, giving 20% damage reduction for 20s on a 90s CD.
• Shadow Wall - This is our biggest general-purpose CD, giving 30% damage reduction for 10s on a 3m CD.
• Dark Mind - This gives us a 30% reduction in magical damage taken for 10s if buffed with Dark Arts (which it should be), with a 60s CD. Without Dark Arts it's 15% (same CD).
• Dark Dance - This gives us a 30% boost in parry rate. If used with Dark Arts it also gives a 20% evasion bonus. I'll be honest, this is garbage as a damage-reduction CD on a boss. I use it to try to get Reprisal up if it comes off CD and I don't have a proc already. Otherwise, it stays unused except in mass AoE situations (where I usually pop it with Dark Arts after Blood Price drops - the evasion is actually nice on a trash pack).

Also of note are the following, which are debuffs that should be up on the boss:

• Delirium - reduces INT by 10% (combo finisher, so available every 3 GCDs, or somewhere between 6 and 7.5 seconds). This boss has magical attacks (I'm reasonably sure its cleave is magical, tho not 100% certain), so this should be up at all times unless there's a MNK in the party (even then, it should be up if Dragon Kick isn't - and adds usually keep DK from being up 100%).
• Reprisal - Reduces damage dealt by 10% for 20s (30s CD). This becomes available every 30 seconds, but is only usable after a parry, so it won't always be up every 30 seconds. A good DRK will generally keep this up most of the time tho.

Finally, here are our cross-class defensive CDs:

• Convalescence - should be popped if the DRK sees his/her HP dropping below about 50-60% to help the healer out. Not worth popping at higher health, tho, unless you're expecting multiple big hits that will need to be healed between (A4).
• Bloodbath - Self-healing from damage. Should be popped right after Convalescence to help stabilize.
• Foresight - minor physical CD - better than Dark Dance as a straight CD, tho.
• Awareness - worthless on most bosses, but a godsend on big pulls. I don't use this as often as I should, but for a boss fight it should probably be traded out for Mercy Stroke (which I don't have yet) anyway.

I hope this helps you understand what went wrong. :)

--Erim Nelhah

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Originally Posted by Galadrium

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Idk that it's directly related, but a DRK who blows his MP is a squishy DRK in my experience. The ones that maintain their MP are the easiest to heal, and this can either be because MP plays a vital role in their survival (?) or it can just be a sign of player competence, Idk the job firsthand to say.

Today I ran fractal about 5 times and they went smoothly, but the last one was tough. I got in it as an in-progress run, people seemed nice, we did the first pull and I immediately found myself working unusually heavily to keep up the tank. I checked his gear and he was in ilvl170/180 which is plenty, and in tanking gear rather than DPS which is probably the only reason I got any DPSing in. His MP ran out several times, and if I could I'd throw an Ewer on him once I saw Darkside fall off. The last boss went like this; things are messy, MNK not helping with adds so I'm DPSing them on my AST to help the SMN, managing MP pretty well and keeping up the DRK. I get to 3/4 MP, Luminous Aether is gone and I Draw Ewer, "it's a messy run so I should probably use this on myself--but wait, the DRK lost Darkside and is out of MP" So I cast it on the DRK, DPSing less, healing, MP is pretty steady but going down.

Next thing I know crap hits the fan, people taking damage, MNK stands in something, I rez him, then I notice my MP is super low (whups). /panic Everyone's taking heavy damage, 3 of us are near death I can't afford a single heal, boss is at maybe 1/5th HP. Healer 2bar LB, party's back up, Luminiferous Aether is up, got my MP back. I used so many Essential Dignities, sometimes for clutch heals and sometimes just for the MP management. These are my favourite runs.