3.0 Paladin is broken still. Square-Enix please. Clemency, scaling.

Fixed in patch 3.x via the vitality/strength adjustment for tanks.

Thank you Square-Enix.

Note:

Were clemency a percentage heal, it would scale with HP as well as tanks deciding to use strength accessories would suffer a lose in their heal, as they should.

edit: instead of wearing strength gear INCREASING your heal, cause as of right now wearing strength gear does increase the heal, and that is backwards as hell.

I see you did no proper testing to confirm you immediate reaction. Well to enlighten. it scales off of attack power. see below *maybe you did test, you just underestimate the size of the heal greatly.*

The first cast is in my fending set, second and third slaying set, 4th fending again. Str set has 873 str, Fending has 733. So a difference of 140 str is over 600 health per heal.

[22:58]You begin casting Clemency.
[22:58]You cast Clemency.
[22:58]  You recover 3733 HP.
[23:00]You begin casting Clemency.
[23:00]You cast Clemency.
[23:00]  You recover 4377 HP.
[23:00]You begin casting Clemency.
[23:00]You cast Clemency.
[23:00]  You recover 4585 HP.
[23:00]You begin casting Clemency.
[23:00]You cast Clemency.
[23:00]  You recover 3700 HP.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Edewen

I see you did no proper testing to confirm you immediate reaction. Well to enlighten. it scales off of attack power. see below *maybe you did test, you just underestimate the size of the heal greatly.*

The first cast is in my fending set, second and third slaying set, 4th fending again. Str set has 873 str, Fending has 733. So a difference of 140 str is over 600 health per heal.


[22:58]You begin casting Clemency.
[22:58]You cast Clemency.
[22:58]  You recover 3733 HP.
[23:00]You begin casting Clemency.
[23:00]You cast Clemency.
[23:00]  You recover 4377 HP.
[23:00]You begin casting Clemency.
[23:00]You cast Clemency.
[23:00]  You recover 4585 HP.
[23:00]You begin casting Clemency.
[23:00]You cast Clemency.
[23:00]  You recover 3700 HP.

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I just edited it.

I went off the description and made estimates then double checked it. I dont have the varying gear to check it against. (i just used strength gear to test and sure enough it goes off attack power not/only mind/healing magic potency)


For a heal to increase/scale off of attack power is even worse in my opinion.

Paladins utilizing strength gear should take a hindrance to their heal, not have an advantage over defensive paladins.

(note that i already stated before you stated in my second post that strength does increase the potency, which again is backwards and makes little sense.)

Your post is at

10:05 my time,

my edit to the post prior to yours was at

10:02

It is a good clutch heal when you can find time as a main tank. But the extra healing is mainly an offtank tool. So scaling off str makes sense.

Also, makes no sense to scale off the tanks health, as it is not a self heal. It is a heal intended to use on someone else and give yourself some in the process.

Lastly, the devs have made it clear through their design, that for real endgame, they don't want tanks to be stacking only vitality as it is simply a boring stat. The idea is take the only the vit you need and all the str you can.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Daniolaut

I'm surprised no one has posted this as a main topic because it more than deserves it.

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Clemency is based off STR not MND. I can usually get between 4-6k ubuffed in STR gear, and even came close to hitting 9k if I crit with Convalescence.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Edewen

It is a good clutch heal when you can find time as a main tank. But the extra healing is mainly an offtank tool. So scaling off str makes sense.

Also, makes no sense to scale off the tanks health, as it is not a self heal. It is a heal intended to use on someone else and give yourself some in the process.

Lastly, the devs have made it clear through their design, that for real endgame, they don't want tanks to be stacking only vitality as it is simply a boring stat. The idea is take the only the vit you need and all the str you can.

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Then if that is the intended purpose the loot distribution system is the flawed system.

If tanks are expected/designed to utilize strength gear, then they should/must be capable of casting a need lot on strength gear.


It needs to be one way or the other. It cant be backwards both ways.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SwordCoheir

Clemency is based off STR not MND. I can usually get between 4-6k ubuffed in STR gear, and even came close to hitting 9k if I crit with Convalescence.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Daniolaut

(note that i already stated before you stated in my second post that strength does increase the potency, which again is backwards and makes little sense.)

my edit to the post prior to yours was at

10:02

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Daniolaut

Then if that is the intended purpose the loot distribution system is the flawed system.

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Agreed. Personally, I think we should not be able to wear slaying at all. Cut vit in half and put str onto the Fending gear. With more predictable health and dps numbers from tanks they can better tune things for tank balance. As all tanks can survive the big hits, he who brings the biggest stick wins.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Edewen

Agreed. Personally, I think we should not be able to wear slaying at all. Cut vit in half and put str onto the Fending gear. With more predictable health and dps numbers from tanks they can better tune things for tank balance. As all tanks can survive the big hits, he who brings the biggest stick wins.

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I was about to say, if the game is designed that players do not need vitality gear, then the "fending" gear should be completely renamed and revalued to split vitality and strength in half to equal the current totals, and be called something more fitting.

I don't see how the str scaling is a problem. You have a small margin of error if you wear str gear because your max HP is much lower, in return for a moderate damage increase and a slightly stronger heal?

It's not like VIT PLDs won't benefit from it. Their gear will still give them str, weapon damage, and attack power, so they benefit from it too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Praesul

I don't see how the str scaling is a problem. You have a small margin of error if you wear str gear because your max HP is much lower, in return for a moderate damage increase and a slightly stronger heal?

It's not like VIT PLDs won't benefit from it. Their gear will still give them str, weapon damage, and attack power, so they benefit from it too.

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it's flawed because we aren't actually supposed to roll on str jewlery.

we're supposed to roll on vit gear. for hp. meaning the potency of clemency suffers for not having access to dps jewlery, punishing us for having more hp. clemency rewards us for optimizing offensively, whereas it should be rewarding us for optimizing defensively, something a tank should be doing in progression and high endgame.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by saber_alter

it's flawed because we aren't actually supposed to roll on str jewlery.
we're supposed to roll on vit gear. for hp. meaning the potency of clemency suffers for not having access to dps jewlery, punishing us for having more hp. clemency rewards us for optimizing offensively, whereas it should be rewarding us for optimizing defensively, something a tank should be doing in progression and high endgame.

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It is not so much a flaw, a tank still gets benefit from the slaying accessories. But a drg gains more. A good static will let tanks get it before the people for alt classes anyway. This just keeps us from taking it over a drg.

What we are "supposed" to roll need on and what we really need for savage progression are definitely different. The dps checks are for real.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Edewen

It is not so much a flaw, a tank still gets benefit from the slaying accessories. But a drg gains more. A good static will let tanks get it before the people for alt classes anyway. This just keeps us from taking it over a drg.

What we are "supposed" to roll need on and what we really need for savage progression are definitely different. The dps checks are for real.

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Its not a flaw that every other class spends their tomes on the pieces they need right away, and get the drops they need right away, while tanks have to spend gil for crafted accessories and materia, or spend possibly double the tomes or wait for second drops to gear up properly?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Edewen

It is not so much a flaw, a tank still gets benefit from the slaying accessories. But a drg gains more. A good static will let tanks get it before the people for alt classes anyway. This just keeps us from taking it over a drg.

What we are "supposed" to roll need on and what we really need for savage progression are definitely different. The dps checks are for real.

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it's not that we get benefits from them or not, because we sure as hell do. dps checks may be real but, progression is still a lot easier with a bigger hp pool. someone should be able to optimize defensively and still get the same benefit someone gets when optimizing offensively.

So? What's wrong with getting an offensive reward? Just because we're tanks doesn't mean literally all we do is take damage and nothing else. There's more to it than that. If you choose to bring str jewelry, there are drawbacks. Yes, you get more damage and bigger clemency self heals, is that...bad? Is having options bad? Just because your opinion is that tanks should optimize defensively for progression and endgame doesn't mean it has to be that way, or that it's the correct way.

You lose out on higher clemency heals, you lose out on damage scaling with fight or flight, oh well. You gain something in return (safety from having a higher HP pool, and higher EHP overall).

A VIT PLD would have to use Clemency LESS than a STR PLD would ANYWAY, since they're going to be at a comfortable HP amount much more often than a STR PLD, so I'm not sure what the problem here is.

How about square Enix doesn't pick one and listen to whiny entitled players. How about they do what they feel is best instead?

Wearing strength accesories does not cause a tank to take any more damage then one wearing fending. Vitality is not mitigation

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Carstien

How about square Enix doesn't pick one and listen to whiny entitled players. How about they do what they feel is best instead?

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I know. How about we shut down the forums entirely because apparently every suggestion you don't like is a whine from and entitled brat. Or even better, take your toxic attitude and stay off the forums. Wow is that way ------>

I don't get it. Clemency is a strength heal, it scales off attack power. Like Healers scale off wisdom. How does that not make sense?

Vitality increases health. Strength increases the scaling of your skills.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

I don't get it. Clemency is a strength heal, it scales off attack power. Like Healers scale off wisdom. How does that not make sense?

Vitality increases health. Strength increases the scaling of your skills.

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Poor comparison. It would work better if say, healer accessories didn't have mind on their right side gear, instead it was just piety. Only way they could get mind accessories would be crafted or if there was some other MND accessory drop, that they couldn't roll on. Do you understand that difference?

There are massive benefits to wearing accessories with STR on them, but the game is clearly designed with tanks using fending when it comes to obtaining the gear. It's an odd imbalance, tanks are only jobs where their best right set gear is often something they cannot roll on or must spend massive amounts of gil to obtain. I think that is OP's main issue? The clemency thing is just an example of how oddly counter intuitive the system is.

Simple solution would be that clemency scales based on vitality stat rather than strength. This would mean that a tank stacking vitality would have better off heals and better divine veil at the expense of damage and would fit better with the current gearing meta.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Praesul

It's not like VIT PLDs won't benefit from it. Their gear will still give them str, weapon damage, and attack power, so they benefit from it too.

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This. On top of that, if it was a percentage heal, if they made it work like Thrill of Battle (warrior +25% hp / heal) then it wouldn't scale with convalescence, mantra or defiance (when you cast it on a warrior MT).

Clemency is fine.

I don't really understand why you seem to have such an issue with using str accessories. It keeps being said that you can't roll need on str so it's not right but optimization has little to do with what the devs designed for general population, it had everything to do with the player meta. Complaints aplenty about str tanks and using str as one of your main stats as a problem stem from lack of class understanding and inexperience. Rather than complaining that the game doesn't conform to your preexisting conceptions as to what a tank should be why not try learning the meta and playing the game to it's fullest using the stat weights and class strengths to your advantage. I think you'll find it's a lot more interesting to learn how to manage cd's and take less damage via class mechanics than to just soak up hits. In the end a pld who rolls cd's and self heals will take far less damage and be easier to heal than the pali who expects his vit accs to save him.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gooner_iBluAirJGR

This. On top of that, if it was a percentage heal, if they made it work like Thrill of Battle (warrior +25% hp / heal) then it wouldn't scale with convalescence, mantra or defiance (when you cast it on a warrior MT).

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the self heal part of clemency (when your not targeting yourself) doesn't scale off of convalescence anyway, though that's common knowledge already.

according to ariyala's gear calc, a ilvl210 paladin sits at 763 strength 20k hp with fending gear, and 998 strength with 15k hp with str gear. (this is without food).

A person wearing gordian head, gauntlets, boots, and belt with asuran weapon/vit jewlery has 633 str and 16k vit.

overall, your not gaining that much strength jumping from ilvl 180something to 210, and the largest factor that would boost it anyway is your weapon (which is a 4 weapon damage increase).

Is anyone else tired of the joke threads?

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Originally Posted by repoe

Wearing strength accesories does not cause a tank to take any more damage then one wearing fending. Vitality is not mitigation

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No, you're using the terms wrong. Vitality is not Damage Reduction, but it is most certainly Mitigation.

Funny, reduction is a synonym for mitigation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Donjo

No, you're using the terms wrong. Vitality is not Damage Reduction, but it is most certainly Mitigation.

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mit·i·ga·tion
/ˌmidəˈɡāSH(ə)n/
noun
noun: mitigation

the action of reducing the severity, seriousness, or painfulness of something.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by saber_alter

it's flawed because we aren't actually supposed to roll on str jewelry.

we're supposed to roll on vit gear. for hp. meaning the potency of clemency suffers for not having access to dps jewelry, punishing us for having more hp. clemency rewards us for optimizing offensively, whereas it should be rewarding us for optimizing defensively, something a tank should be doing in progression and high endgame.

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I would agree with this.

While it's fine that tanks switch to stacking as much STR as possible after progression / after they reach an HP threshold that their group is comfortable with, I think the key point is that Yoshi P / Dev Team has always been pushing players to play the game *their* way ("as intended") whenever possible. Look at all the changes SE has done in response to players not playing the way they wanted:

* Summoner figured out how to use Titan Egi to tank Primals. Yoshi P's response? Not intended. Nerfs Titan Egi.

* White Mage "Holy" Spam. Not intended the way SE wanted. Response? Nerfed. Twice.

* Black Mage "Flare" Spam. Not intended the way SE wanted. Response? Nerf.

* Speed Runs in Dungeons. Not intended the way SE wanted. Response? More Gating / Anti-Speed Running measures added.

I'm not saying that wearing STR Accessories is going to end up this way, but SE has consistently been trying to push their "intended" way of playing whenever possible.

Given that, they clearly made Fending Accessories for Tanks. Yet, Clemency is an ability that scales off of Attack Power (STR included), not VIT or anything else defensive (which is what one might expect from a "Tank").

So if they intended that PLD go full fending, then why does Clemency scale off STR? Isn't that a bit contradicting?

Tanks have the most dynamic gearing in the game. STRvVIT is the only discussion with real merit. Everyone else is stuck in max one stat and then debate about .1% gains with secondaries. Tanks actually have a huge deviation between them. Some tanks do 390dps and others can do 1000+ in the same encounter doing the same thing. Its the last interesting part of FFXIV, lets not kill it on purpose.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SirTaint

mit·i·ga·tion
/ˌmidəˈɡāSH(ə)n/
noun
noun: mitigation

the action of reducing the severity, seriousness, or painfulness of something.

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Oh, good. You've almost figured it out. Activating Rampart(20% damage reduction) reduces the severity of attacks, but it's not the only thing that makes attacks less severe. All of this does too:

Shields(Known as Damage Absorption, as they are functionally just a chuck of invisible HP added on top of your current total.)
Blocks/Parries
Defense
Raw Health

Anything you can apply to yourself that makes an attack less likely to kill you is Mitigation. To put it in another term that people like to use, anything that increases your Effective HP is Mitigation. Damage Reduction is merely part of the equation, not the entire subject.

I like being able to mix in str gear as needed. But I also see the benefit in forcing us to a single setup, a str/vit hybrid fending for example.

Think about the current tuning, in order to make dps check meaningful, they need to account for a full str warrior going balls to the wall in their calculations. This eliminates all choice anyway. You need to run str, and chances are unless your dpsers can make up the slack, you will need the warriors too. If there was one set that tank could use, not only could the dps checks be better tuned around skill instead of class stacking, the amount of health of the tank would be more predictable allowing tighter tuning of tank busters to require some skill to survive it instead of stacking enough vit to survive it.

Full vit is boring, but if you are going to turn it into an illusion of choice with dps checks like they are doing now, may as well take the choice away entirely and use the predictable numbers to make their tuning even tighter.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Donjo

Oh, good. You've almost figured it out. Activating Rampart(20% damage reduction) reduces the severity of attacks, but it's not the only thing that makes attacks less severe. All of this does too:

Shields(Known as Damage Absorption, as they are functionally just a chuck of invisible HP added on top of your current total.)
Blocks/Parries
Defense
Raw Health

Anything you can apply to yourself that makes an attack less likely to kill you is Mitigation. To put it in another term that people like to use, anything that increases your Effective HP is Mitigation. Damage Reduction is merely part of the equation, not the entire subject.

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I understand your stretch of the word. But you contradicted yourself.

Mitigation can been see as reduced damage or reduced % of health. But mitigation is always a reduction.

I am in the reduced damage corner like most people, but of course you could stretch all boundaries of eHP to make your argument make sense.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Edewen

I like being able to mix in str gear as needed. But I also see the benefit in forcing us to a single setup, a str/vit hybrid fending for example.

Think about the current tuning, in order to make dps check meaningful, they need to account for a full str warrior going balls to the wall in their calculations. This eliminates all choice anyway. You need to run str, and chances are unless your dpsers can make up the slack, you will need the warriors too. If there was one set that tank could use, not only could the dps checks be better tuned around skill instead of class stacking, the amount of health of the tank would be more predictable allowing tighter tuning of tank busters to require some skill to survive it instead of stacking enough vit to survive it.

Full vit is boring, but if you are going to turn it into an illusion of choice with dps checks like they are doing now, may as well take the choice away entirely and use the predictable numbers to make their tuning even tighter.

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But we do have to ask two related questions, though:

1. What is the item level that the developers decided was the "intended" level of gear that players should be clearing this content at?
2. Is it necessary for the Tanks to stack Strength in order to meet checks at that intended level of gear?

If we go by the interview in which it was stated that the devs calculate DPS checks by factoring top-tier DPS at intended item level X and removing 10-15%, then we can surmise that we are definitely undergeared for Savage Alexander by a good deal since it's currently taking top-tier DPS just to barely meet the checks. In that situation, everyone's got to help out in ways that go beyond their stated roles. DPS have to maximize their utility and the Tanks/Healers have to maximize their DPS. More gear will relax what people currently think are hard requirements. Hopefully.

WoW ran into a similar problem regarding vit (stam) stacking tanks.

VIT is not mitigation. It is EHP buffer. Over a long period of time, VIT has zero returns, aka, it does nothing for you. There is only one reason VIT exists, and that is

1. To reduce the overall "spikiness" of damage. Obviously the extreme end of spikiness is OHKO, and that is primarily VIT's function to defeat.

There is a secondary reason, and that is to increase the amount of GCDs healers have to react to your damage. If all damage is predictable however, the value of this also drops severely.

So this is why in the age of dps checks being the be all and end all of challenging content, STR stacking is far more prevalent.

WoW solved this problem with 2 steps

1. You can no longer stack VIT. This is equivalent to removing fending accessories from the game. All items give a baseline amount of VIT based on ilvl. This ensures that (traits/class bonuses aside) that all players have the same hp at the same ilvl, allowing balancing content to be easier.

2. Tanks simply get a bonus HP above what everyone else gets, either stance based or job based. Tanks just have more mitigation from armor/traits/abilities. Possibly "tank plate" can have more vit than similar dps plate, at the cost of lower str.

I am all for this, but then again, there are dunderheads that still like accuracy. I gather that "my kind" aren't liked here. But this is a better solution imo.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SirTaint

I understand your stretch of the word. But you contradicted yourself.

Mitigation can been see as reduced damage or reduced % of health. But mitigation is always a reduction.

I am in the reduced damage corner like most people, but of course you could stretch all boundaries of eHP to make your argument make sense.

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The logical failing of most people in this respect is that they only consider the value of the red number(damage reduction and absorption) and completely ignore the element of reduced % of health, even though reduced damage can be converted down to reduced % health loss and having additional health increases the strength of damage reduction.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SirTaint

Tanks have the most dynamic gearing in the game. STRvVIT is the only discussion with real merit. Everyone else is stuck in max one stat and then debate about .1% gains with secondaries. Tanks actually have a huge deviation between them. Some tanks do 390dps and others can do 1000+ in the same encounter doing the same thing. Its the last interesting part of FFXIV, lets not kill it on purpose.

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Well said. Every other job has a BiS set, but tanks have so much flexibility in gearing options. You have a scholar that puts out a ton of damage? Wear crafted or a mix of slaying/fending to give them more wiggle room. Your healers are more pure healers? Go ham with all slaying. Tanks are in a great spot right now with balance and gear options. MMOs have dumbed down gear sets and eliminated or dumbded down skill trees, so it's actually refreshing to have options.

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Originally Posted by RobBull

Well said. Every other job has a BiS set, but tanks have so much flexibility in gearing options. You have a scholar that puts out a ton of damage? Wear crafted or a mix of slaying/fending to give them more wiggle room. Your healers are more pure healers? Go ham with all slaying. Tanks are in a great spot right now with balance and gear options. MMOs have dumbed down gear sets and eliminated or dumbded down skill trees, so it's actually refreshing to have options.

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Yeah, the "easy" option is to cut the tall poppy down to everyone else's level, but SE would make so many people so very happy if they made everyone else's gear more complex instead. I just can't imagine how difficult it would be to overhaul everything so much, though.