AST Sect Theory

So, I've got a theory atm about how to use Diurnal and Nocturnal sect, and I'm hoping y'all can help me out.

Since the AST is a healer support job, I was wondering if the intent behind the two sects was for us to "mimic" whatever healer the AST is paired with, allowing the AST to take some of the burden off of the other healer so that they're not racing to spam all of their healing spells and abilities to get the party up to full.

We already know that the AST lacks the healing throughput of the other two healers, but this mainly comes up because we have an AST attempting to replace a WHM when paired with a SCH, and vice versa. But when we do this, I think what this is doing is actually hurting the party makeup, because the AST already doesn't have the healing power of the WHM yet we're attempting to shoehorn them into that role because we don't want their sub-standard shields to get in the way of the SCH. I think that the AST should be using whichever sect matches the other healer, so that way you have multiple regens overlapping as if you had two WHM, or a mechanic is about to come up, the SCH can shield initially, and then the AST can follow-up after the shields are down, and mitigate more damage without the SCH wasting too much MP.

Again, I'm posting this because I need some help figuring out how well this works. I've been pretty busy over the last week, and having other healers help me test this is probably the best way to get feedback.

Not really. There's a reason if full parties usually use the WHM/SCH couple. They complement each other. Consider that a a Noct AST's shields overwrite the SCH's shields and vice versa, so noct AST + SCH is just a terrible choice. WHM + diurnal AST is decent, but double WHM is just muh better.

This is part of the mentality that I want to address. Yes, WHM/SCH is a great complement to one another, but the AST is neither of these two classes and we need to stop treating it entirely as if it were WHM jr. or SCH jr.

The fact that the AST shields overwrite the SCH, should just mean that AST are careful about when they use Aspected Benefic or Aspected Helios, mainly avoid using it on the MT as the SCH will already be using Adlo on them. But if the AST sees Galvanize go down, he can use Aspected Helios to follow up, and the SCH doesn't have to bother with popping Succor. Instead they can continue dealing with other aspects of the fight.

SCH's job is to reduce damage taken. WHM's job is to heal the party up to 100%.
If you go Diurnal + WHM you dont have the damage reduction, and if you go Noct + Scholar you don't have the AoE heals of a WHM.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Apeiron

This is part of the mentality that I want to address. Yes, WHM/SCH is a great complement to one another, but the AST is neither of these two classes and we need to stop treating it entirely as if it were WHM jr. or SCH jr.

---

But this is exactly what AST is. Once you choose a Sect, AST becomes WHM/SCH jr. because it was designed that way. Right now cards are useless so yes, we can only think of AST as the weaker version of the other healers depending on the stance. AST's healing skills are all identical or very, very similar to whm and sch's skills. whm and sch however have a lot of skills that an AST doesn't have. We have a useless and overly complicated and random card system however.

I'd enjoy trying it out but SCH + Noct AST would really not be easy because of the override and the lack of options for picking the party up. If AST had one half-decent burst AoE that wasn't shield-oriented, it wouldn't be so bad, but AST already struggles with AoE and it's not SCHs forte either, so taking into consideration that AST shields would be completely useless in an AoE event, it wouldn't be ideal. SCH would have to shield everyone and then both jobs would have to fight to pick everyone up. For single target(s) I could see it maybe working, but AoE would be a horrible experience.

As for WHM/Diurnal AST, that's already common practice for a lot of ASTs, since Regens do stack.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Budi

SCH's job is to reduce damage taken. WHM's job is to heal the party up to 100%.
If you go Diurnal + WHM you dont have the damage reduction, and if you go Noct + Scholar you don't have the AoE heals of a WHM.

---

If you go WHM + WHM you don't have the damage reduction, and if you go SCH + SCH you don't have the AoE heals of a WHM. Not a very convincing stance you've taken.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lastelli

But this is exactly what AST is. Once you choose a Sect, AST becomes WHM/SCH jr. because it was designed that way. Right now cards are useless so yes, we can only think of AST as the weaker version of the other healers depending on the stance. AST's healing skills are all identical or very, very similar to whm and sch's skills. whm and sch however have a lot of skills that an AST doesn't have. We have a useless and overly complicated and random card system however.

---

Sorry, this was poor forethought on my end. When they've chosen their respective sect, the AST acts very much like a WHM or a SCH -- its AB becomes Regen, or Adlo; its AH becomes Medica II, or Succor; its CU becomes Asylum, or Sacred Soil -- but attempting to play the AST like a WHM with Diurnal, or a SCH with Nocturnal, has been met with a lot of problems. If we played them as an extension to WHM or SCH, bolstering their regens and healing, or dropping shields after theirs are down (or on party members they're not focused on) and healing, shouldn't that prove to be more beneficial than if we played AST like a poor substitute?

I'm going to leave the card system for another thread, as I'd like to focus primarily on the sect here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GeekMatt

I'd enjoy trying it out but SCH + Noct AST would really not be easy because of the override and the lack of options for picking the party up. If AST had one half-decent burst AoE that wasn't shield-oriented, it wouldn't be so bad, but AST already struggles with AoE and it's not SCHs forte either, so taking into consideration that AST shields would be completely useless in an AoE event, it wouldn't be ideal. SCH would have to shield everyone and then both jobs would have to fight to pick everyone up. For single target(s) I could see it maybe working, but AoE would be a horrible experience.

As for WHM/Diurnal AST, that's already common practice for a lot of ASTs, since Regens do stack.

---

Let's break down what a SCH/AST has for healing, shall we? We have the SCH, their fairy, and the AST. Physick, Embrace, Benefic, Adlo, Essential Dignity, Succor, Whispering Dawn, Helios, Aspected Helios, Benefic II, Aspected Benefic, Synastry... Think that covers everything.

Now, allowing that the AST is smart enough not to override the SCH shielding, that still gives the pair plenty of tools to pick a party back up. And when a shield goes down, the AST can drop AB until the fairy gets around to healing the party member, or heal them themselves. Alone, the AST can help get 1 person back up above 50% hp with Essential Dignity, then follow up with synastry and get two more party members back on top.

@Apeiron
Meanwhile a SCH+WHM combo can just use indomitability+assize and that's it (and you don't even need to waste MP in the process...in fact the WHM gets 10% of his MP back). Actually they can do a lot of different things with their amazing skills. Party topped, ready to dps or heal the tank. Notice that we're talking about raid progression here. Trivial encounters like extreme primals can be easily solo-healed by every healer if your party is good enough.

Quote:

---

Now, allowing that the AST is smart enough not to override the SCH shielding

---

So you're saying an AST should not use 2 of the 5 healing skills he/she has access to. Why not just solo-heal the fight if that's the case? :P

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lastelli

@Apeiron
Meanwhile a SCH+WHM combo can just use indomitability+assize and that's it (and you don't even need to waste MP in the process...in fact the WHM gets 10% of his MP back). Actually they can do a lot of different things with their amazing skills. Party topped, ready to dps or heal the tank. Notice that we're talking about raid progression here. Trivial encounters like extreme primals can be easily solo-healed by every healer if your party is good enough.

So you're saying an AST should not use 2 of the 5 healing skills he/she has access to. Why not just solo-heal the fight if that's the case? :P

---

Raid progression is part of the reason why I'm asking for other people to try this out. My AST is only 52, and I really want feedback from people who don't mind taking some time to try it out to try Noct+SCH or Diurn+WHM. This is not a thread about if WHM or SCH are better option, we already know that they've got a really strong kit that meshes well with other healers. The SCH + WHM combo don't have just indomitability and assize. They've got a lot of other spells and abilities they can use. By listing out what tools an AST + SCH have, I was attempting to show GeekMatt that the duo do have the tools necessary to bring a party back up to snuff.

Now, here's where I sound rude, because you missed the key word I used for that sentence. That being override. I did not say the AST shouldn't use their skills that provide shields, I'm saying the AST has some common sense and knows not to use AB or AH when Galvanize is up. If the AST sees Galvanize go down, they're more than welcome to use either AB or AH to save the SCH from having to do it. Especially if there are multiple players who're low on health and the SCH is busy bringing tanks back up, and the fairy won't get to them immediately.

Noct needs help before any truly useful discussion comparing the Sects can take place. You know it's in a bad place when most of us end up touting the stacking regen effects of Diurnal AST+WHM as the more efficient alternative to Noct AST+WHM despite the longstanding meta of regen+regen easily becoming an overhealing mess compared to regen+shields.

I have both AST and WHM 60. IMO if your paired AST WHM go Diurnal, AST SCH go Diurnal, AST AST 1 go each. Nocturnal is just to weak and mana inefficient and doesn't work well with Time Dialation or Celestial Opposition.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cynfael

Noct needs help before any truly useful discussion comparing the Sects can take place. You know it's in a bad place when most of us end up touting the stacking regen effects of Diurnal AST+WHM as the more efficient alternative to Noct AST+WHM despite the longstanding meta of regen+regen easily becoming an overhealing mess compared to regen+shields.

---

I don't believe this to be entirely accurate, as the "help" may never arrive. Rather than ignoring Nocturnal Sect all together, and "touting" stacking regens, shouldn't we be working to figure out how to get the most out of the sect?

I think the reason we tout the stacking regen is due to the fact that its supposed to work like that. An AST paired with a WHM isn't supposed to go Nocturnal, because they're not capitalizing on the things that work well together -- regens. All of the regens. And with the AST, you don't have to worry about overhealing with their lower potency. This doesn't prohibit a player from choosing Nocturnal Sect, but they're not going to be working optimally with their co-healer.

Sorry but SCH + Noct is never going to be good. SCH don't have an issue keeping galvanized up so there isn't a need to have AST using Aspected Noct other than a 5% healing boost. Then you look at the fact that galvanized is always going to be stronger than Noct just compounds the problem. Thirdly AST doesn't have the big AoE heals so you need to press every advantage you can meaning Diurnal's strong regen.

Honestly though, why not queue up Trials/Coil/CT and try for yourself. If it doesn't work good @ lv. 50 it won't work good lv. 60.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dyvid

Sorry but SCH + Noct is never going to be good. SCH don't have an issue keeping galvanized up so there isn't a need to have AST using Aspected Noct other than a 5% healing boost. Then you look at the fact that galvanized is always going to be stronger than Noct just compounds the problem. Thirdly AST doesn't have the big AoE heals so you need to press every advantage you can meaning Diurnal's strong regen.

Honestly though, why not queue up Trials/Coil/CT and try for yourself. If it doesn't work good @ lv. 50 it won't work good lv. 60.

---

And in the moments where the SCH is dealing with something else, wouldn't it be better if the AST could drop a shield instead of a regen which won't stop/mitigate damage, and then follow up with better healing than its Diurnal counterpart? If the SCH keeps galvanize up, then that leaves the AST free to do other things like use synastry so the SCH doesn't cough up a lustrate. The fact that galvanize is better than an AST shield doesn't compound a problem. The way I see it, if you've got a SCH who isn't particularly aware of mechanics and gets downed, the AST is capable of stepping in temporarily until the SCH is back on their feet. The SCH doesn't have a big AoE heal either until 52, unless you're counting Whispering Dawn, because Succor is the same as Aspected Helios.

I've done CT and had more success than not due to player awareness. Trials, again, I haven't had much problem with, but some people are of the opinion that doesn't mean jack. That leaves Coil, which I haven't done mostly because I don't have an FC or Static and people are focusing on AlexS atm. I was hoping others would run with it in either AlexHM or AlexS so that there'd be a wider amount of feedback rather than just one man's statement, and everyone else shouting down that it was just a lucky break or a good static.

I like the effort to make Noct work, but as SCH there is almost never a moment when I don't have a Galvanize effect from Adlo or Succor out unless I'm just not needing to heal. I don't need a backseat healer providing weaker barriers when they could be contributing the frequent regen effects that I can't provide.

AST should just be given the same potency as the other two healers, it's absolutely ridiculous that there are three healers and one of them has weaker heals than the other two, weaker CDs and utility for HEALERS (not support) and it's justified by their cards.

Putting double regens on people makes sense, but putting double shields on people that stack would be broken, especially with the new aoe healing capabilties SCH was given.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cynfael

I like the effort to make Noct work, but as SCH there is almost never a moment when I don't have a Galvanize effect from Adlo or Succor out unless I'm just not needing to heal. I don't need a backseat healer providing weaker barriers when they could be contributing the frequent regen effects that I can't provide.

---

Except now comes the argument that AST regen is too weak and they need to be buffed so they're comparable to the WHMs. Which then follows the argument of, no, just play WHM then.

Let's look at it like this. Mechanics pop up that you undoubtedly drop Succor for shields, and then moments later they go down and healing needs to be done. A Nocturnal AST should be assisting by using Helios. Now your party has just received 190pot + 190pot shield, and additional healing of 290pot + 5%. If for some reason your shields went down (I'm thinking something along the lines of stomps from Titan) and the AST went with AH, that's still a (140pot + 5%) and that again as a shield. Is it optimal? No. But it doesn't hurt anything either. You come in a moment later and give better shield if you want to.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EchuKayu

AST should just be given the same potency as the other two healers, it's absolutely ridiculous that there are three healers and one of them has weaker heals than the other two, weaker CDs and utility for HEALERS (not support) and it's justified by their cards.

Putting double regens on people makes sense, but putting double shields on people that stack would be broken, especially with the new aoe healing capabilties SCH was given.

---

No, they shouldn't be given the same potency. It's not so ridiculous if the problem is with the players and their overall understanding of the job than it is with the job.

For example, running with your stacking regens example, it does make a lot of sense to stack regens. We do it as WHM, so why not AST Di + AST Di or AST Di + WHM? There's no real good reason for us not to stack regens. Heck, the only problem we really run into with stacking regen as WHM is overhealing, right? So then what's one way to ensure that doesn't happen, but still allow for regens to stack? What about a lower potency regen? One that's weaker but still effective? BAM. AST in Diurnal Sect.

Continuing with your example, but moving on to shields, stacking shields would indeed be pretty OP. I mean, that's why they nerfed WHM stoneskin, right? Stack 18% HP on top of all the other shields you get a pretty powerful stack going. So, like SCH, our shields don't stack with other shields other than Stoneskin. We can't have shields that are exactly like SCH, because then we might as well just be SCH. So the fix? More potent heals while in Nocturnal. We don't worry about shields unless something really bad happens (a la SCH goes down b/c stupidity or mechanic shenanigans). We're not equal to the SCH, but we can still hold our own for a bit until they're back on top, and help them via Synastry and Essential Dignity.

Apologies that I can't address comments in greater detail at the moment, but I wanted to point out that AST regen effects are fine. I believe that their overall healing potency is a non-issue and that better healing CDs would bring them up to par. Lightspeed was an improvement, but more is needed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cynfael

Apologies that I can't address comments in greater detail at the moment, but I wanted to point out that AST regen effects are fine. I believe that their overall healing potency is a non-issue and that better healing CDs would bring them up to par. Lightspeed was an improvement, but more is needed.

---

No worries. I agree that they're fine, just that the typical argument that you'll see is that the regen isn't as good as the WHM, thus many people will argue that why bother with the AST in Diurnal with a SCH, when you can just take a WHM.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Apeiron

If you go WHM + WHM you don't have the damage reduction, and if you go SCH + SCH you don't have the AoE heals of a WHM. Not a very convincing stance you've taken.

---

If you are not convinced it's not my fault. I'm saying that if you want to raid difficult content you will have to run SCH and WHM, because you NEED the AoE heals and the damage reduction.

Aperion, we get it, you want AST shields to be good. But, sadly, they arent. Once you get your AST to level 60 and start trying end game with it, you will see, very much so, that it is a heavily gimped stance. It has far less heal potential than its regens. There is never a reason to use shields over hots with AST unless you are just in an instance with tons of trash and don't want your regen to pull threat off the tank the second the mob is pulled. Take this from someone with AST, WHM, and SCH all i185. Astrologian doesn't suck, but its shields sure do.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ninimo_Babamo

Aperion, we get it, you want AST shields to be good. But, sadly, they arent. Once you get your AST to level 60 and start trying end game with it, you will see, very much so, that it is a heavily gimped stance. It has far less heal potential than its regens. There is never a reason to use shields over hots with AST unless you are just in an instance with tons of trash and don't want your regen to pull threat off the tank the second the mob is pulled. Take this from someone with AST, WHM, and SCH all i185. Astrologian doesn't suck, but its shields sure do.

---

This isn't actually about AST shields, but everyone seems to be focusing on how lacking the AST shields are. Something I'm not arguing against as I'm well aware of the lower potency, combined with no crit shield bonus, means sub-standard shields. To go back to my original statement, I'm wondering if we're meant to play the AST in the sect that matches our co-healer. The topic has been derailed into a discussion about Nocturnal Sect and shields because of how ready people are to point out the shortcomings of that sect.

Look, guys, I've presented a theory, and no one has come back to me with "we tried this". Instead all I'm getting are people pointing to the shields and saying the AST would never use them when paired with a SCH. Maybe the AST never does get to use them, but gets to do other things. I was hoping to get feedback from other healers, not dismissal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Apeiron

Look, guys, I've presented a theory, and no one has come back to me with "we tried this". Instead all I'm getting are people pointing to the shields and saying the AST would never use them when paired with a SCH. Maybe the AST never does get to use them, but gets to do other things. I was hoping to get feedback from other healers, not dismissal.

---

The problem with your presented theory on SCH + Noct Ast is that it's lacking to begin with.

Why would you want a SCH to "pre-shield" and a Noct-Ast to "post-shield"?
If a "post-shield" is needed, why shouldn't the SCH do it?

As trade off for your "post-shield" (which the SCH should have done itself), you lose regen effects.

If the SCH deploys it's shields (like it should), you have the 2 aspected skills you may only use rarely now.

The lower healing you have now will force the SCH to nanny your healing, most likely hitting it's dps potential.

In theory this is screaming suboptimal, ranging to crippling, why should someone test this at all other than for a fun challenge?

____________

WHM + Diurnal Ast is already a thing that works and in theory provides better potency and mana efficiency than Noct Ast in any situation other than double Ast (which may be the reason you think people "derail" your thread).

I think that you can work any content just fine in diurnal or nocturnal if you use all that is available in your toolkit. I see so many arguments that you can't do noct ast with SCH, but, yes, you can. There are changes to abilities that may not have the best synergy but you forget that being in diurnal lowers your healing potency in the first place. An AST can not replace a sch or a whm, because we are neither, what we have is a series of unique and flexible tools and we should look at the flexibility, not the downside. Noc provides bigger up front heals, but it also provides an aoe shield with no downside that drops incoming damage consistently. Sure we may not be using our scholar style shields if we work with a scholar, but we CAN stack with the defensive buffs a scholar can do on the ground to mitigate incoming damage to an absolutely silly degree.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spoekes

The problem with your presented theory on SCH + Noct Ast is that it's lacking to begin with.

Why would you want a SCH to "pre-shield" and a Noct-Ast to "post-shield"?
If a "post-shield" is needed, why shouldn't the SCH do it?

As trade off for your "post-shield" (which the SCH should have done itself), you lose regen effects.

If the SCH deploys it's shields (like it should), you have the 2 aspected skills you may only use rarely now.

The lower healing you have now will force the SCH to nanny your healing, most likely hitting it's dps potential.

In theory this is screaming suboptimal, ranging to crippling, why should someone test this at all other than for a fun challenge?

____________

WHM + Diurnal Ast is already a thing that works and in theory provides better potency and mana efficiency than Noct Ast in any situation other than double Ast (which may be the reason you think people "derail" your thread).

---

The pre-shield, post-shield idea is a specific scenario, and not the best example. It would involve a scenario where someone didn't get a shield until it was too late, and now the SCH has to get that person (or persons) back up to a reasonable level of health. The SCH could leave that healing to the fairy and AST, who could utilize any of the healing spells in his toolkit, and focus on keeping shields up, or if they are already in the middle of casting physick then the AST could step in to give their shields.

The fact that the Aspect skills aren't going to get used, isn't necessarily a bad thing, is it? The potency for AB and AH is lower than Benefic and Helios, and when comparing the Diurnal effect to the Nocturnal effect, I saw that the Diurnal regen was only 1.5x stronger than the Nocturnal counter-part -- and that's assuming your party members aren't taking damage greater than what the regen can heal. If the AST in noct is focusing on utilizing Benefic and Helios more than AB or AH, that should be a good thing. That's healing comparable to WHM cure/SCH physick, and WHM Medica (I'd say Succor but the whole shield thing gets in the way. SCH don't really have an AoE heal, and their fairy has a regen).

Testing the theory isn't just for a fun challenge, it's to validate that the problem with AST is more than just shields in Noct. Does anyone here really believe that a fix to Nocturnal Sect's shields is suddenly going to fix any other problems that we might come across in the job? What else are we missing because we choose to ignore an option, without backing it up to say "We've tried to make this work, and it just doesn't"?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cassandaria

I think that you can work any content just fine in diurnal or nocturnal if you use all that is available in your toolkit. I see so many arguments that you can't do noct ast with SCH, but, yes, you can. There are changes to abilities that may not have the best synergy but you forget that being in diurnal lowers your healing potency in the first place. An AST can not replace a sch or a whm, because we are neither, what we have is a series of unique and flexible tools and we should look at the flexibility, not the downside. Noc provides bigger up front heals, but it also provides an aoe shield with no downside that drops incoming damage consistently. Sure we may not be using our scholar style shields if we work with a scholar, but we CAN stack with the defensive buffs a scholar can do on the ground to mitigate incoming damage to an absolutely silly degree.

---

This is in a similar vein of what I'm getting at. As I see it, the AST job is not meant to replace a WHM or SCH, and yet we're attempting to do just that. Rather than play to the classes strengths, we're attempting to shore-up the weakness of the other healer.

So far I've got one person to come back to me in all of this and tell me that they tried running WHM + Di AST in A1S, and the regen stacking wasn't enough. I'd really just love to hear more people at least try, and tell us what the results were.

Were regens not enough in specific content? What content was it, and what mechanics were you running into problems with? How did you get around it, or did you throw in the towel? Was your healing not up to snuff, what do you think would help? Are you certain its the job or the way you handled the mechanics?

Okay, I'm going to do basic math here.
We all agree WHM > Diurnal and SCH > Nocturnal, so that means:
2x SCH > SCH + AST
2x WHM > WHM + AST.

Now you are asking for test, but what you don't seem to realize is that this was tested back in 2.0 already. Just ask any Scholar how much fun it was to heal Titan HM with another Scholar. Heck, Turn 13 would be impossible to do without a Scholar, and taking an AST instead of a WHM would make the fight way more difficult.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Budi

Okay, I'm going to do basic math here.
We all agree WHM > Diurnal and SCH > Nocturnal, so that means:
2x SCH > SCH + AST
2x WHM > WHM + AST.

Now you are asking for test, but what you don't seem to realize is that this was tested back in 2.0 already. Just ask any Scholar how much fun it was to heal Titan HM with another Scholar. Heck, Turn 13 would be impossible to do without a Scholar, and taking an AST instead of a WHM would make the fight way more difficult.

---

I'm asking people to test the effectiveness of this theory, rather than just saying it won't work without any solid testing to back it up. Yes, we already know that doubling up on SCH or WHM is better than taking an AST.

Look, pointing out that 2x SCH is more effective than SCH+AST pair isn't helping either for, or against, my theory. We already know what the AST is lacking in when compared to the other healers. I'm asking people to stop looking at the AST as a WHM replacement when paired with a SCH, or a SCH replacement when paired with a WHM, and instead to have them act as an augmentation to the SCH or WHM as if there were another SCH or WHM with them. The AST has the toolkit to support its co-healer. I've done it in everything but Coil and Alex, the only place left to try the AST to see if my theory works.

I don't think I'm asking for anything outrageous. I'm asking people with more resources (FCs and statics) to queue up for a little bit of their time, and test the theory of allowing an AST to enhance the healing capabilities the WHM and SCH already have. If people come back with "It didn't work" then it didn't work and no ones really any worse off.

WHM + AST/Diurnal = good
WHM + AST/Noct = Meh but good
SCH + AST/Diurnal = good
SCH + AST/Noct = BAD. SCH is always going to over write Noct because he has a higher cure potency, even with the 5% boost that Noct gives. Also you don't need to save the SCH mp because they don't have mana issues and AST do.

Not really seeing how this would be effective or more effective than AST (Diurnal)+SCH. SCH+AST (Noct) is just awful, and in every way inferior to SCHx2 or AST (Diurnal) + SCH. At least in SCHx2, your shields just don't stack; in SCH+AST (Noct), AST's smaller, less effective shields will overwrite SCH's larger, more effective shields. AST (Noct) also bring far less in terms of emergency healing, and with SCH's new abilities, stacking two SCH's really isn't all that awful if you communicate.

The only possible benefit I see is stacking SS and CU, which isn't worth the trade off of constantly wasting healing potential by overwriting shields.

Imo
Any decent ast with a brain will tell u
- Ast + sch =\= automatic dirunial sect
- ast + whm =\= automatic noct sect
You have to assess party and what instance ur doing.
I go noct always on rav ex as my noct aspected benefic really helps ease off the tank busting moves. Having the sch try to shield before tht buster is like so ur gonna hard cast while party is getting hit with atma linga lol. Also if ppl get burned before prelude to liberation purple aoe, 9/10 times my aspected noct benefic will make them survive.

Also i really like it during bismark ex during p3 add phase as it helps shielding the tank with the 3 adds before the island slam.

The reason you don't see people jumping to test this theory with AST is because we all feel that we've been-there-done-that with the existing healer classes.

I really don't understand how SCH+Noct AST healing is supposed to be anything but either comparable or worse than SCH+SCH in the past, except with the added annoyance of having to be concerned with Galvanize and Nocturnal Field effects overwriting each other without regard to strength.

Now, with SCH's added burst AoE heal capability, the comparison is even weaker since Indom and ET+Succor allow SCHs to provide Medica-style AoE healing to fill the gap that the AST of either Sect would otherwise fill with (unaspected) Helios.

If we seriously consider that the Noct AST can provide healing and shielding coverage while the SCH does something else entirely, like focusing on DPS or being too far removed from the party to effectively heal everyone, sure, that's fine. However, a Diurnal AST will sustain heals far more efficiently over a longer period, and Noct shields aren't so powerful that they are likely to prevent a wipe through sheer mitigation (whereas a partner SCH could at least Deploy an Adlo to mitigate a deadly raid buster).

I will play with Noct in these situations more when I get the opportunity, but I'll be very surprised and pleased if the result is somehow different.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yumi_umi

Imo
Any decent ast with a brain will tell u
- Ast + sch =\= automatic dirunial sect
- ast + whm =\= automatic noct sect
You have to assess party and what instance ur doing.
I go noct always on rav ex as my noct aspected benefic really helps ease off the tank busting moves. Having the sch try to shield before tht buster is like so ur gonna hard cast while party is getting hit with atma linga lol. Also if ppl get burned before prelude to liberation purple aoe, 9/10 times my aspected noct benefic will make them survive.

Also i really like it during bismark ex during p3 add phase as it helps shielding the tank with the 3 adds before the island slam.

---

To each his/her own and all, but for Ravana, Atma Linga is a joke to heal through. SCH can simply weave an Indom between tank heals, and the tank doesn't require pre-shielding unless you plan on having them eat Blinding Blade alone.

Noct can be played, of course, and it has some uses, but it really needs help to become more viable in more situations.

Also have u tried playing ast as an individual and not as a jr. Healer? Im not denying tht ast still needs a noct buff etc but my point is that u gotta try playing ast more better to see how it can shine over the 2 other healers.

Ast was designed for above average healers as its toolkit only rewards the good parties and punishes the bads. There is no middle ground saddly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cynfael

To each his/her own and all, but for Ravana, Atma Linga is a joke to heal through. SCH can simply weave an Indom between tank heals, and the tank doesn't require pre-shielding unless you plan on having them eat Blinding Blade alone.

Noct can be played, of course, and it has some uses, but it really needs help to become more viable in more situations.

---

Yet how many times have u seen tanks goof up or ur co healer forget about blinding lol. I actually go back to help ppl clear ex and teach em so i've seen a lot of different approaches made by tanks / co healers.

But yes im confused to y se didnt buff noct yet. Maybe they r waiting for an ast to clear alex savage before making a huge buff like tht.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yumi_umi

Also have u tried playing ast as an individual and not as a jr. Healer? Im not denying tht ast still needs a noct buff etc but my point is that u gotta try playing ast more better to see how it can shine over the 2 other healers.

Ast was designed for above average healers as its toolkit only rewards the good parties and punishes the bads. There is no middle ground saddly.

---

What do you mean as "Jr. Healer?"

I'm becoming more of the opinion that AST was designed for the casual healer since skilled healers find too many holes in its kit to make it truly competitive with the other two healer Jobs. I see AST's current version as the lower-tier, niche character in a fighting game; you either play it simply because you like it, or you resign yourself to working that minimal toolkit for all you can just to try to keep up with what other characters can do with much less effort.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dyvid

WHM + AST/Diurnal = good
WHM + AST/Noct = Meh but good
SCH + AST/Diurnal = good
SCH + AST/Noct = BAD. SCH is always going to over write Noct because he has a higher cure potency, even with the 5% boost that Noct gives. Also you don't need to save the SCH mp because they don't have mana issues and AST do.

---

Adloquium is a cure potency of 300
Succor is a cure potency of 150
Aspected Benefic is a cure potency of 199.5 (don't know if they round up or down)
Aspected Helios is a cure potency of 147
Physick is a cure potency of 400
Embrace is a cure potency of 300 (someone fact check me, please)
Benefic is a cure potency of 399
Benefic II is a cure potency of 651
(these are with Noct +5%)

If an AST is using AB or AH in Noct Sect for any reason other than emergencies where something has gone terribly, horribly wrong, they've done goofed. Meanwhile, they've got some very potent healing that they can do to keep the party up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GideonHighmourn

Not really seeing how this would be effective or more effective than AST (Diurnal)+SCH. SCH+AST (Noct) is just awful, and in every way inferior to SCHx2 or AST (Diurnal) + SCH. At least in SCHx2, your shields just don't stack; in SCH+AST (Noct), AST's smaller, less effective shields will overwrite SCH's larger, more effective shields. AST (Noct) also bring far less in terms of emergency healing, and with SCH's new abilities, stacking two SCH's really isn't all that awful if you communicate.

The only possible benefit I see is stacking SS and CU, which isn't worth the trade off of constantly wasting healing potential by overwriting shields.

---

Consider that the AST in Diurnal is only as effective as long as his regens are keeping up with damage to nullify or overcome the damage. The SCH's shields help the Dirunal AST because it gives the regens a chance to get a lead on the damage, hence why people find it effective. Meanwhile, a SCH and Nocturnal AST can't stack shields, but the AST can take advantage of the shields to help the SCH and fairy get the party back on top. While the SCH uses Lustrate on one or two people, the AST has Essential Dignity and Synastry. Essential Dignity alone can bring a tank near to or above 50%-60%, or DPS 60%-70% HP. Synastry allows one target to receive half the cures received by another party member from the AST that is not the AST or the target themselves.

Right there the AST helps bring 3/8 - 1/2 the party back to the top as the SCH and fairy bring up the rest.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yumi_umi

Imo
Any decent ast with a brain will tell u
- Ast + sch =\= automatic dirunial sect
- ast + whm =\= automatic noct sect
You have to assess party and what instance ur doing.
I go noct always on rav ex as my noct aspected benefic really helps ease off the tank busting moves. Having the sch try to shield before tht buster is like so ur gonna hard cast while party is getting hit with atma linga lol. Also if ppl get burned before prelude to liberation purple aoe, 9/10 times my aspected noct benefic will make them survive.

Also i really like it during bismark ex during p3 add phase as it helps shielding the tank with the 3 adds before the island slam.

---

Thank you for the input.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cynfael

The reason you don't see people jumping to test this theory with AST is because we all feel that we've been-there-done-that with the existing healer classes.

I really don't understand how SCH+Noct AST healing is supposed to be anything but either comparable or worse than SCH+SCH in the past, except with the added annoyance of having to be concerned with Galvanize and Nocturnal Field effects overwriting each other without regard to strength.

Now, with SCH's added burst AoE heal capability, the comparison is even weaker since Indom and ET+Succor allow SCHs to provide Medica-style AoE healing to fill the gap that the AST of either Sect would otherwise fill with (unaspected) Helios.

If we seriously consider that the Noct AST can provide healing and shielding coverage while the SCH does something else entirely, like focusing on DPS or being too far removed from the party to effectively heal everyone, sure, that's fine. However, a Diurnal AST will sustain heals far more efficiently over a longer period, and Noct shields aren't so powerful that they are likely to prevent a wipe through sheer mitigation (whereas a partner SCH could at least Deploy an Adlo to mitigate a deadly raid buster).

I will play with Noct in these situations more when I get the opportunity, but I'll be very surprised and pleased if the result is somehow different.

---

Thank you for at least trying.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yumi_umi

Also have u tried playing ast as an individual and not as a jr. Healer? Im not denying tht ast still needs a noct buff etc but my point is that u gotta try playing ast more better to see how it can shine over the 2 other healers.

Ast was designed for above average healers as its toolkit only rewards the good parties and punishes the bads. There is no middle ground saddly.

---

In theory it rewards good teams and punishes bad. But I only see how it punishes bad teams. How does AST reward good teams? By throwing 15sec 5%dmg buff once in 3~ minutes after shuffling and royal roading ?
AST rewarding good teams does not really exist, WHM or SCH in that case could reward good teams much better by for example - dpsing(cos whm and sch dps is higher than ast)

Quote:

---

snip

---

Arguing that Diurnal is only effective when recovery is important while arguing a hypothetical situation where you're focusing on the recovery process doesn't really prove your point. Dirunal helps far more in every situation in terms of recovery as opposed to Nocturnal, which is only situational. Yes, Diurnal is supposed to be used to "lead" or "prevent" damage, but their shields are far less potent than SCH's, and will overwrite them regardless of strength. Diurnal has all of the CD's you listed; they aren't specific to Nocturnal. Going Nocturnal with a SCH only gimps your groups total healing potential even more, especially when you consider shield overwriting.

While I appreciate the reason you're asking people to "test" this, we've tested it already with SCH+SCH in 2.0; it doesn't work, and only takes one fight of "testing" to see why shield stacking/overwriting is a major detriment to overall recovery potential. Especially with AST shields overwriting SCH's regardless of potency, all it takes is one Aspected Helios after Succor (or heaven forbid, Deployment Tactics), and I'd be swiftly trying to shove my face through my desk. At least with SCH+SCH, the stronger shield would always stay.

I think AST would have more synergy in either stance if Synastry performed the buffed heal on the linked target.

i.e. Aspected Helios with Synastry on the tank
490 Potency Shield on tank if it hits
7 people
Or
175 Potency Regen (50 × 7 1/2 over 30 s)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GideonHighmourn

Arguing that Diurnal is only effective when recovery is important while arguing a hypothetical situation where you're focusing on the recovery process doesn't really prove your point. Dirunal helps far more in every situation in terms of recovery as opposed to Nocturnal, which is only situational. Yes, Diurnal is supposed to be used to "lead" or "prevent" damage, but their shields are far less potent than SCH's, and will overwrite them regardless of strength. Diurnal has all of the CD's you listed; they aren't specific to Nocturnal. Going Nocturnal with a SCH only gimps your groups total healing potential even more, especially when you consider shield overwriting.

While I appreciate the reason you're asking people to "test" this, we've tested it already with SCH+SCH in 2.0; it doesn't work, and only takes one fight of "testing" to see why shield stacking/overwriting is a major detriment to overall recovery potential. Especially with AST shields overwriting SCH's regardless of potency, all it takes is one Aspected Helios after Succor (or heaven forbid, Deployment Tactics), and I'd be swiftly trying to shove my face through my desk. At least with SCH+SCH, the stronger shield would always stay.

---

I wasn't trying to say that Diurnal is only effective in recovery, but that it's effectiveness is dependent on the 50potency healing more than the damage someone is receiving. Comparatively, a SCH is better off using Eos's Whispering Dawn, shielding, and letting the AST help heal up than they are in letting them drop A. Helios.

Whispering Dawn 21sec 100pot/tick - 7 ticks = total potency of 700
A. Helios 30sec 140+50/tick - 10 ticks = total potency of 640

A. Helios also costs nearly 1.5x as much Benefic II with a lesser cure potency per single target. In the instances where people take too much damage, it'd be better to rely on SCH shield while the AST follows up with stronger Helios and Benefic or Benefic II to keep up with the damage, as you can cast benefic and benefic II quicker than you can wait on regens.

The problem with SCH+SCH is that they don't work effectively together because you have one SCH at any given time overwriting the other's shields in an attempt to either protect party members or or provide AoE healing. When paired with an AST, this is not the problem. The SCH gets shield priority, while the AST assists with keeping HP up. Their AoE has a potency of 304.5 (again I don't know if this is rounded up or down) compared to Succor which has a potency of 150 -- twice the potency of Succor, and without worrying about shields being overwritten.