Even if they removed red scrip caps, crafting would still be dead.

Crafting to aid progression was murdered by design. SE has even said as much.

Good luck selling those i180's to battle classes. I'm sure they'll totally pay you gil proportionate to the amount of effort you spent to produce red crafter scrip materials and aetherborne sands. Also favor items from red gathering scripts! You're using gatherer red scripts too. Yikes!

No one is going to want your i180 crap that takes pentamelded Materia V's (which don't exist) to get good, when Alexander Normal throws up i190 gear into the open mouths of the many hungry baby birdies who just hit 60 5 days ago.

"But it can help them skip the law phase of gearing!!" You think to yourself, desperately. Then you remember that the "law phase" takes all of those five days I mentioned before. Then you remember the gear takes red crafter scrips to assemble. Then you remember the aetherborne sands, and that's when you really begin to feel sick. Then you notice the gatherer red script items you need, and you quickly destroy your keyboard/controller with streams of tears and vomit.

Are you a Goldsmith? Oh. Ohhhh. I'm so sorry. I hope you sold lots of platinum jewelry before 3.0 came out, because that's the last fortune you're going to make.

The New Craft has one market: other crafters/gathers. Crafters crafting things for other crafters so they can make those really tricky crafts for... For who? Nobody. It's a dead end - a money hole. The gil you're spending on materials and melds now is never coming back.

...

Well, airships and housing are pretty neat. Not like you're allowed to have them, of course.

Wait!!! ... I see it!

http://www.mygovcost.org/wp-content/...Money-Hole.jpg

My god! It's full of gils!

But at least I'll look pretty in my crafter AF!

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Originally Posted by Yeldir

Good luck selling those i180's to battle classes. I'm sure they'll totally pay you gil proportionate to the amount of effort you spent to produce red scrip materials and aetherborne sands.

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This. So much. Just think about the total worth of items you will trade in to get Red Scripts. All that worth just so you can GEAR ONE, YES ONE job.

If they removed the scripts caps, it would probably solve most of our problems.

So you can buy a Soul of the Crafter for 460 Red Scrips, does that add to your existing 3, or replace 1?
Basically can we eventually have everything as a specialist?

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Originally Posted by Kenji1134

So you can buy a Soul of the Crafter for 460 Red Scrips, does that add to your existing 3, or replace 1?
Basically can we eventually have everything as a specialist?

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Replaces. You're capped at 3 specialisms.

I don't think they should remove caps. Instead, they should reconsider prices for red scrips staff.

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Originally Posted by BalthierDragoon

I don't think they should remove caps. Instead, they should reconsider prices for red scrips staff.

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That would hardly help at all. The favor nodes are gated behind red scrips. Remove the limit period.

Drop this entire colossal mess of a 3.0 crafting "re-imagining". No scrips. The infernal master II books from ARR were better then this.

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Originally Posted by scarebearz

If they removed the scripts caps, it would probably solve most of our problems.

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Not going to happen. Specialization is SE's effort to 'promote' cooperation as beneficial in gaining an advantage and that is a good thing in an MMO, red/blue scripts are merely an extension of that premise of which while I would like the cap raised or material cost lowered a bit...overall specialization and such systems like scripts which promote cooperation is the way forward just like they have done with FC crafting getting people to cooperate with each other to create airships and other such things that benefit the FC. So no scripts will not go away and neither will specialization, SE might tweak red script costs or raise the cap but you have zero chance of them removing completely.

-._-. I wanted to gather and craft cuz i dont raid.
But now i feel like im tackling t13 in crafter gear.
Just waiting to get flattened by the amount of earth shaking grinds we need to do.

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Originally Posted by Katchoo

This. So much. Just think about the total worth of items you will trade in to get Red Scripts. All that worth just so you can GEAR ONE, YES ONE job.

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When I mathed it all out, it was only 7m in mats for enough seals for the chest piece and ~3-4m for each other piece, for a total of ~20m for your left side, plus another 10m for your main hand, so 30m. That's not that much, right? You can easily make 30m back crafting endgame items for a single craft! And it's only 240m for every craft, everyone who tries has that much. It's totally cheaper than the extremely expensive fully melded artisan's gear we had in 2.55. That was 1m per piece, plus 20k in materia (more for chest, like 500k), plus a small grind for the Lucis main hand. It was what, 10m to be a full omnicrafter in 2.55? No one could afford that! They said they wanted endgame crafting to be more accessible, and they totally did it. Now you can cheaply grind out gear by actually doing crafting instead of spending millions to just get it and meld it.

The above paragraph is not sarcastic at all!

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Originally Posted by Nyalia

When I mathed it all out, it was only 7m in mats for enough seals for the chest piece and ~3-4m for each other piece, for a total of ~25m for your left side, plus another 10m for your main hand, so 35m. That's not that much, right? You can easily make 35m back crafting endgame items for a single craft! And it's only 280m for every craft, everyone who tries has that much. It's totally cheaper than the extremely expensive fully melded artisan's gear we had in 2.55. That was 1m per piece, plus 20k in materia (more for chest, like 500k), plus a small grind for the Lucis main hand. It was what, 10m to be a full omnicrafter in 2.55? No one could afford that! They said they wanted endgame crafting to be more accessible, and they totally did it. Now you can cheaply grind out gear by actually doing crafting instead of spending millions to just get it and meld it.

The above paragraph is not sarcastic at all!

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Love it

http://i.qkme.me/3uy3h3.jpg

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Originally Posted by Nyalia

It's easy, yo!

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I feel better already! /high fives

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Originally Posted by Nyalia

And it's only 240m for every craft, everyone who tries has that much. It's totally cheaper than the extremely expensive fully melded artisan's gear we had in 2.55.

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No worries. You'll make back that 240m (or like one hojillion hours of playtime if you're producing all the materials yourself) in no time, when you sell all of that incredible, cutting edge battle/magic class gear to - oh, right. I forgot. There isn't any, and there never will be any, according to SE.

But it's going to be a fun experience, right? An amazing journey. Enjoy the maze with negative cheese at the center. That's right, my little rats - when you get to the destination, you'll discover you've lost cheese. But you'll have that beautiful AF to look at, which you can use to craft... Uh... Right. Nothing. I keep forgetting that part, because it is so profoundly dumb.

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Originally Posted by Yeldir

But you'll have that beautiful AF to look at, which you can use to craft... Uh... Right. Nothing. I keep forgetting that part, because it is so profoundly dumb.

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Don't be silly! You'll use it to craft MORE AF! That no one will buy! But gosh, won't you feel special, having a full set of it up on the MB with your name on it for all to see?

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Originally Posted by Yumi_umi

-._-. I wanted to gather and craft cuz i dont raid.
But now i feel like im tackling t13 in crafter gear.

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That seems to be the intent. Slight simplification, but:

DoW/DoM will do battle content to get better equipment (for their main DoW/DoM) to do harder battle content to get better equipment (for their main DoW/DoM) to do harder battle content.

DoH will craft to get better better equipment (for their main DoH) to do harder crafts to get better equipment (for their main DoH) to do harder crafts.

DoL will gather to get better equipment (for their main DoL) to gather harder items to get better equipment (for their main DoL) to gather harder items.

Everything gets segmented off nice and neatly with no cross over or interaction.

Yeah, uh, here's the problem with that...
DoW/DoM's "endgame" at least kinda changes. Different classes w/ different playstyles and purpose, fights with different strategies, being able to interact with the 7 other people in your raid group, and so forth.
DoH/DoL endgame is pretty much the exact same as DoH at 53 when you get Precise Touch, but with higher material costs and gating. DoL endgame is uh... 99% identical to DoL at lvl 1... But with more running around and gating.

I guess that... fine... aside from that fact that the "fun factor" ratio is skewed out the wazoo. Under this implementation endgame crafting and gathering is not fun, but requires almost the same (or more) amount of WORK... not skill, WORK, as the combat endgame... Seems a bit strange no?

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Originally Posted by Kenji1134

Yeah, uh, here's the problem with that...
DoW/DoM's "endgame" at least kinda changes. Different classes w/ different playstyles and purpose, fights with different strategies, being able to interact with the 7 other people in your raid group, and so forth.
DoH/DoL endgame is pretty much the exact same as DoH at 53 when you get Precise Touch, but with higher material costs and gating. DoL endgame is uh... 99% identical to DoL at lvl 1... But with more running around and gating.

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I was *just* saying this in one of my LSs. This eternal end-game loop doesn't function for gathering and crafting, at least not in a fun and engaging way. These are roles that people take up for a purpose--generally to create/gather items for *others* to use, thus creating an economy. Gatherers can still gather items for crafters, but crafters now produce superfluous items only for other gatherers and crafters, thus creating a loop that essentially has no external purpose.

It's such a shame at the end of the day because there was so much potential.

Thus far i was actually having a blast with DoH. I like the way thing got more challenging with 35/70 durability and good proc strangling, i know that sounds weird but it forced you to come up with new rotations and ways of thinking. The collectibles system is a great idea, again with so much potential that ended up being just a flat money wasting grandest.

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Originally Posted by Katchoo

It's such a shame at the end of the day because there was so much potential.

Thus far i was actually having a blast with DoH. I like the way thing got more challenging with 35/70 durability and good proc strangling, i know that sounds weird but it forced you to come up with new rotations and ways of thinking. The collectibles system is a great idea, again with so much potential that ended up being just a flat money wasting grandest.

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Mhm. I've always enjoyed the puzzle-solving aspects of crafting, learning to marginalize the effects of the RNG, and so on. Those aspects have remained the same (though most of our new abilities are pretty much inconsequential, which is sad), but they've greatly complicated the other side of crafting when it comes to the availability of materials, the generally higher number of materials required to make stuff, and the pointless grinds for scrips.

And of course, they made nearly everything crafters produce pointless. HQ leveling gear is unnecessary because of quests, i180 gear is pointless because of the ease of gear acquisition combined with the extreme scarcity the scrip system imposes on them, and potions are undermined by their ready availability from treasure maps. Culinarian seems okay, I guess? If that's your thing.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

Mhm. I've always enjoyed the puzzle-solving aspects of crafting, learning to marginalize the effects of the RNG, and so on. Those aspects have remained the same (though most of our new abilities are pretty much inconsequential, which is sad), but they've greatly complicated the other side of crafting when it comes to the availability of materials, the generally higher number of materials required to make stuff, and the pointless grinds for scrips.

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I could not agree with you more. The immense satisfaction of levelling my second craft to 50 (goldsmith) and learning as i went up the levels how proper rotations worked by my self was glorious. And with the crafts now it's been the same. Testing out different variations of things that we would have thought useless.

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Culinarian seems okay, I guess? If that's your thing.

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As it happens it's my favourite class and the only one i got Lucis on, probably because it ended up being the only class i would use for high end crafting on a regular basis (yes i was the company food bitch)

It would be nice if there was an item that could be made that only you could use. Like a book for my SMN that I would need both a level 60 ALCH and SMN to equip. Maybe a special glow or design and stats equivalent to raid weapon. But as things stand right now, I will get my CUL to 60 and pretty much forget the rest of the grind.

Crafting is its own little mini game where crafters craft for other crafters and gatherers gather for other crafters. I personally see no point to it all. Each to their own, but the grind attached to every aspect of the game is getting to be a bit much for me. And this is not even taking into account the god awful RNG also attached to every aspect of the game.

^ Yep.
This could be somewhat justified if you could make your own raid gear.
Lets say that you could buy some specific component for half the Page costs of a given piece of gear, in order to craft it yourself. Boom, you now have a reason to be Super Geared Omnicrafter, WITHOUT messing up the economy or getting a "massive" lead on everyone else.

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Originally Posted by Kenji1134

^ Yep.
This could be somewhat justified if you could make your own raid gear.
Lets say that you could buy some specific component for half the Page costs of a given piece of gear, in order to craft it yourself. Boom, you now have a reason to be Super Geared Omnicrafter, WITHOUT messing up the economy or getting a "massive" lead on everyone else.

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This is exactly what the could have done simply with collectables.

You mean something close to this or a derivation of this??
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...red-by-DoW-DoM

Culinarian seems to be the only crafting class that is worth is right now, with Alexander Savage out everybody wants food, I made around a million yesterday just messing around between blue scrip timers. No other craft is really worth it except making crafting/gathering armor/tools, none of the battle gear is relevant, there are no glamors really that somebody would want that cannot be made on non-red scrip recipes and the gear is so outclassed why would you spend 20+ million or whatever on it?

My plan is to just save up scrips for the 180 gathering tools and the 180 Cooking main hand and just cook up a storm and rake it in. With profits from that I will be able to afford the off hand knife and gathering tools which will in turn making gathering and cooking even easier.

I like specialization, but this whole gated material system is just the wrong way to go about it.

Crafting just for the fun of being able to craft more and more things is fine. It's a fun minigame. Looking at it as its own sub-game, even just how it is now makes sense as far as the "crafters only really exist to craft for crafters" thing goes. I'm okay with the endgame of crafting being glamours/housing/minions/airships/barding/etc with high requirements where you have to craft a ton to be able to meet the requirements, like it was back in 2.55. If you wanted to do everything yourself, you needed to work up the crafting ladder to make the turnins for better crafting gear so you could make better crafting gear, and then you had to do interesting things to get the master book II, which was a sort of crafting DPS check. Then, you had to grind some leve turn-ins to get the mats to grind for lucis turn-ins, all the while running maps, Ixali quests, and GC turnins for the moonstones. The reward? You could make high end glamour items, like the Wootz/Ebony/Bright Primal weapons, the Kirimu/Arachne/Wootz gear, and so on.

That was fun, and that was well designed. It required enough stuff that only you could do that you couldn't just buy everything from someone else. You had to make the turnins for your artisan's/supra/lucis/master book II. You had to turn in the leves for the lucis token mats. You had to gather the moonstones and had a variety of ways to do it.


Now, in 3.0, you have only two avenues available to you to get started on endgame crafting gearing: spend millions of gil on final products (or their mats), or spend tens/hundreds of millions of gil on materials to make red scrip turnins (it's about 4m a week). How do you get millions of gil? There are many ways, but none of them are crafting level 50-60 items. Level 50-60 items are worthless because quests give them out like candy. I routinely trawl the MB looking for level 145 HQ craftable gear that's selling, HQ, for 3k. The materials cost about 75k. Oh, and if there weren't any on the MB, they're still worthless if you fail to HQ them (and HQing gets hard at 145/148 with appropriate-level gear) because NPCs sell them for 1/4th the price of the materials. So, how do you make money? You sell materials instead of using them. How then do you make your blue scrip turnins? Simple, you wait for Dragon Fang Earrings to show up and spam them, stockpiling the mats until they come up. How do you make your red scrip turnins? Easy - you don't. Why would you?

Unlike Blue Scrips, Red Scrip rewards are based on the recipe itself, not just the level of the recipe. So, Goblin Jig gives the same amount of Blue Scrips as a piece of body armor of the same level, but Bladed Steel Jig gives ~1/5th the amount of Red Scrips as a piece of body armor (4 red for minimum collectability, 4 red for medium collectability, 4 red for max collectability). So, no matter what you do, it's ~10k per red scrip. That's 8m per body piece, and 4m per left side piece, and 13m per main hand. You'll never make that money back. Any item you would be able to make for that one class that you might want later, you could buy for a tiny fraction of the cost of being able to make it yourself. It's 37m per class, just for left side/main hand (I haven't looked at offhands or accessories yet). What item in that class will sell, after the first week of craziness, for 10m more than the material cost? What item will sell for 5m more than the material cost? Heck, what item will sell for 1m more than the material cost? I've never seen such a thing, and I doubt we're about to. You can get any item that endgame crafting would allow you to get by buying it for a tiny fraction of the fortune it costs to gear up yourself.


So, I've decided that, until this is changed, I'm not going to get any red scrips at all. They're not worth it. I'll just get all crafters to 60, get the level 60 Patricians equivalent, and then stop crafting. I'll make all my money desynthing for materials whose price has shot up due to the absurd Red Scrip system, and when that stops being profitable, wait until the next desynth-related money maker is released. Desynth doesn't require new gear. With Desynth, you can make a profit while leveling it, unlike the new crafting system where your money all goes into a giant hole behind Rowena's. The crafting and gathering endgame really is dead for me. They're fun, but not fun enough to spend my entire fortune on gearing up one class only to have no way to make that money back.

Even if they release recipes that require the new gear, one person who has more time than me to play this game will spend some small portion of their billion gil fortune to get the new gear, then they'll make stuff at slightly more than cost and sell it, undercutting everyone else but still making them a profit because they can just keep crafting all day long. With the bar of entry this high, there's no way for casuals to craft profitably anymore.


Yay, thanks for making crafting "more" accessible, SE :( Maybe next time, instead of making the end products of mid-range crafting trivial to get, you could make the mats easier to get instead to promote more casual crafters? That's how you make something accessible, not making it so that nothing crafters can make before endgame is worth anything by giving it all away as tradable quest rewards, and then gating the crafting-exclusive items behind ridiculous gil gates. Time-gating is fine for accessibility, but gil-gating destroys accessibility completely.


Solutions for future content:

• Make quest rewards of gear be Aetherial items instead of HQ craftable in the future. That way, they're untradable, so it doesn't destroy the crafting market for gearing up alts and selling items for other people's GC turn-ins. And yet, you still get to gear up two classes completely for free. If you could limit it to one class, that'd be even better!
• Increase everyone's free retainer slots by 2 so everyone can have one of each type of retainer. That way, everyone has equal access to easy mats, not just the people with the RL cash to get extras. Or, give everyone who has bought at least one retainer another one for free. That'll make the retainer slots more reasonably priced without overly favoring people with tons of RL cash, while at the same time increasing your revenue by incentivizing people to get that first paid retainer slot.
• Make the weekly token item something you can grind out by completing hard crafts that do not take expensive materials or multiple other crafter/gatherer classes. Either make them be base materials, like Amphiptere Leather, Adamantite Nugget, Chimerical Felt, and Aurum Regis Nugget, or make them be useless items crafted from recipes in the current Master Book (Master Book III in 3.0) that do nothing else. Make the crafting grind be a crafting grind, not a crafting plus millions upon millions of gil grind.
• Give a daily and/or weekly bonus to crafters/gatherers like DoW/DoM classes have now. Daily and weekly bonuses flatten the playing field and make things more accessible by giving casuals a means to catch up to people who do nothing but play 24/7.
• When determining the upper limit for material costs, don't use whatever you used for 3.0 (unless you planned for red scrips to be 10k each?). Instead, use a formula based on the desynth yields of vendor-bought items. If the cheapest way via desynth to get, say, Adamantite Nuggets is to desynth Serpentskin Hunting Belts of Scouting (not saying this is true - I haven't done the math for ARM yet), then consider the upper limit on the price of Adamantite Nuggets to be the price of Serpentskin Hunting Belts of Scouting divided by the chance to get it from a successful desynth (in this case, 11,880/32% = 37,125 gil). Or, factor in the other mats as well, which will bring that down to more like 20k. You can create a system of equations pretty easily to determine the correct price ceiling on a material at endgame. Desynthers like me will sell the mats at above that price until it stops being profitable, which means it'll get down to that price pretty fast, and then drop when gathering bots are better at gathering than desynthers. Unless it was planned that red scrips be 10k each, this math does not appear to have been done.
• Let specialists get cheap, untradable mats for red scrip items by spending blue scrips or gil. This make specializations actually special.

That's really stupid. If they want these equips to be really hard and expensive to make, then let them be on par with the good gear out there. Why would I even bother spending hundreds of millions of gil and countless hours on one set of i180 gear to resell for 1/10th of the price I payed to craft it, when I can just get a Law set in 2 days with far better stats? Or a quick full set of Prototype accessories? Or the new Esoterics set? They all take drastically less time to make and they are all superior in every way shape and form.

Adding my vote here as well:

* Yoshi P, how is Crafting and Gathering in 3.0 more "casual" and relaxed for players?

It's NOT.

You've made Crafting and Gathering FAR WORSE for all types of players in 3.0. It's a ridiculous Time Sink and Gil Sink. :( Just terrible design.

In addition, if you slog your way through the terrible upgrade w/ Red Scrips? Crafters *don't* make Best In Slot gear for Raiding. The majority of the recipes we get to make are GARBAGE, that's outdated by Dungeon drops.

There's nothing rewarding about Crafting and Gathering's End Goal right now.

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Originally Posted by Nyalia

So, I've decided that, until this is changed, I'm not going to get any red scrips at all. They're not worth it. I'll just get all crafters to 60, get the level 60 Patricians equivalent, and then stop crafting.

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It was a great read as always, thank you. You have my like.

But since you're the master desynther, you should have tons of mats with which you can craft all items for the red scrips. So why not just use the red scrips to buy the ilvl180 gear? Better than nothing.

I am getting red scrips, and not doing much of anything else besides making a few items to sell . One of the many that refuse to participate in this absurd lockdown on crafting, I meet the 2 star stats already so......... hey! if you folks at SE want to UNLOCK the materials I need to begin moving the gear go ahead, till then on progression break. Not using red scrips just capping them for for the 8 crafters I spent many millions on since 3.0. Crafts 721 ctl 700 ........... does not take well to dictatorship of game markets.

It is really nice to see more people that think this whole system isn't really thought through on SE's side. I really don't see how this is "more casual" than 2.55
I do like the idea of specialists, but the skills are ,in my opinion, quite messy in how they work.

Nymeia's wheel for instance. It restores more durability when you have less whistle stacks. So basically when you had lots of good/excellent procs, so when you craft already was a blast (as far as I felt). Instead of giving more when you have more whistle to maybe save a craft.

Most skill are also too unpredictable to be useful in a rotation.
This might change for the better with the heart of the crafter skill but that needs scrip grind and makes it a massive time sink and truth be told I don't know if that time will be really worth it seeing how everything else is done so far.
This whole crafting concept feels more like a massive and poorly-made skinner box than a well-thought and well-realized design idea.

I do admit that I don't really have any ideas how to improve this and I also admit I like the idea of Byregot's Miracle if it happens to be chainable with a Byregot's Brow, but these are a few things in opposition to a whole other messy bunch of issues.

I really hope there will be some changes to the better for this system. I can imagine, as suggested earlier, increasing the ilvl from i180 to i200 could help.
That would allow crafter to sell their gear to raiders and also allow a greater gear variety depending on personal preferences.

This video is explaining what I feel SE is doing with the crafting
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWtv...BB187&index=18

I really didn't had any problems with Specialist System. FFXIV Craft system could be reduced to only a single core problem: Weekly Caps. You are either tied to get gears or materials. The gears are the best option because you don't have RNG waste in that, you only need to get the Red Scripts then get the gear, but at the current state, you will need more than a year to fully gear your jobs. My opinion about this weekly cap is, I already pay for playing this game and I need to wait to get what I want? If this game was free I would not complain about craft/gathering week caps, but having to pay subscription and being limited break down my will to keep doing this. Its not, as the author of this post said, a Gil sink anymore, its also a REAL world money sink, because you are paying to wait. People here should review their conceptions of what a subscription based online game should be, because I feel like a fool.

I'm waiting for good news in 3.1 or else, no FFXIV for me, time to move on.

Crafting itself isn't the problem. Final Fantasy 14 has become extremely shallow in terms of mechanics. They can't hand us that superior iLevel gear through crafting because that's all the game consists of. You can level all classes on a single character to 60, do every quest in the game 100 times over, put that character in level 15 gear and they are no better than a level 15 character of that class. Equip a rusty needle on your level 60 Master weaver and see how much more they can do than a noob with a dream. I don't know if it's a good thing or a bad thing but everything revolves around the gear. Gate and grind is all we get because gate and grind is all there is.

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Originally Posted by Yeldir

But you'll have that beautiful AF to look at, which you can use to craft... Uh... Right. Nothing. I keep forgetting that part, because it is so profoundly dumb.

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It's not about crafting, you can craft everything in this game with white i150's. This entire game is about looking good, and the AF stuff is just me getting my glamour on. It's an undeniable gil sink, but I look good doing it.

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Originally Posted by Ronivan

. The gears are the best option because you don't have RNG waste in that, you only need to get the Red Scripts then get the gear, but at the current state, you will need more than a year to fully gear your jobs.

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Technically, the i170 crafted gear is supposed to be for dedicated crafters who want to progress faster and work on as many classes as possible. The i180s are probably designed more for those who don't intend to work on more than a few classes, which is in line with the specialization limit.

RNG isn't that much of an issue when it comes to i170 gear since those crafts are considerably easier than previous endgame crafts. I'd say the major obstacle is the time it takes to grind favors in order to craft them, so they obviously are not for everyone. If you happen to have the time to go through at least some of the weekly favors though, I'd recommend taking that route if i180 progression is too slow. You can also mix and match i180s and i170s.

This is new and exciting.