Pre-60 dungeons: ignoring crucial mechanics?

I didn't think anything of it at first, but leveling up a tank gave me more of an insight into the pre-60 dungeons and how players go about clearing them now after the giant wave of players looking for end-game content. Not only do I constantly get players who don't understand core mechanics, but an increasing number of them claim that they've done the dungeon X number of times as if they know everything there is to know about the dungeon. This leads me to believe that either:

A) these players are purposely ignoring the core mechanics (I'm talking about things that can wipe a group) or...
B) they've been carried the number of times that they're claiming because there's an influx of level synced players going through that content.

Both of these are obviously undesirable for everyone, as they turn what could have been a very smooth and well coordinated run into a bicker storm of "you didn't run away from me when we were chained." Is it just me encountering parties like this, or is it more than just my extremely bad luck?

I have only done 2 dungeons in the 51+ content but both times I noticed quite the opposite in that I would announce I am new to the dungeon and then no one would explain any of the boss fights and just assume I could figure it out I guess? We only wiped once in each one so I guess it turned out ok but I can imagine this being a problem to other players where it is just assumed they know everything coming into it.

I am sure everyone's experiences differ and some may relate to you in finding people lying about their experience but if those experiences came in situations where people wouldn't be bothered explaining anything I can see people being mostly clueless about mechanics.

I'll never forget the Lalafell tank in Sohm Al who got mad at a dps for attacking an add...then proceeded to lecture the party telling them to ignore adds in every boss fight as a general rule. My healer got into an argument with her about it. The dps finally said plaintive can we just clear this?

Ignore all adds. Everywhere. For every fight. ...good luck with that.

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Originally Posted by Subucnimorning

I have only done 2 dungeons in the 51+ content but both times I noticed quite the opposite in that I would announce I am new to the dungeon and then no one would explain any of the boss fights and just assume I could figure it out I guess?

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Stating you're new is not enough to guarantee that you're going to get instructions. You should still be asking.

Your assumption that you're going to receive instructions holds only as much weight as the parties assumption that you've already done some research before entering, as it's fairly common etiquette to do so. Some people think that knowing the bosses is something that falls only to the tanks, but really everybody should be checking. Doubly so for trials like Ravana.

Their are far worse things than somebody saying "what do we do here" after they've already trapped 3-7 people in an instance with them.

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Originally Posted by Cooperal

Stating you're new is not enough to guarantee that you're going to get instructions. You should still be asking.

Their are far worse things than somebody saying "what do we do here" after they've already trapped 3-7 people in an instance with them.

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That is basically what saying I am new here is saying though...that I don't know all the mechanics and need explanation, otherwise what is the point of saying it? Luckily I watch guides on all dungeon/trial before doing them so I have a basic understanding of what I need to do. However, the point was I can see others having issues with people who can't be bothered to explain core mechanics to people who state they are new.

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Originally Posted by Cooperal

Stating you're new is not enough to guarantee that you're going to get instructions. You should still be asking.

Your assumption that you're going to receive instructions holds only as much weight as the parties assumption that you've already done some research before entering, as it's fairly common etiquette to do so. Some people think that knowing the bosses is something that falls only to the tanks, but really everybody should be checking. Doubly so for trials like Ravana.

Their are far worse things than somebody saying "what do we do here" after they've already trapped 3-7 people in an instance with them.

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Basically what this guy said, I try not to give out instructions unless said new person speaks up and asks before we pull what he/she needs to be doing. Some people like to experience blind runs, and not know the mechanics of a fight, and I respect that.

I'm cool with explaining fights, if people can put up with my own difficulties explaining fights with complex mechanics. For raids though, this is nearly in impossible as someone is going to pull anyway..

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

I'll never forget the Lalafell tank in Sohm Al who got mad at a dps for attacking an add...then proceeded to lecture the party telling them to ignore adds in every boss fight as a general rule. My healer got into an argument with her about it. The dps finally said plaintive can we just clear this?

Ignore all adds. Everywhere. For every fight. ...good luck with that.

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So how did she get past Haukke manor? The Lady is immune to damage unless the Manor Sentry is killed. lol

I haven't had much trouble with this in the 51-60 dungeons...but I get AK hard all the time on high roulette and almost every time, no one stands behind the statues on the first boss. Nobody is new, they're just ignoring the mechanic. Its really bad when the tank does it lol.

Also ran AV the other day as AST, there was a new guy in the party and on the last boss I say, "Remember to use the fruit at 3 stacks!" because they were getting like 5 stacks on the first boss. Plus, I just want to get out of there. The guy that's not new says "Yep" then proceeds to get 6-7 stacks.

I hate the chains. I've been literally stuck in a corner and its not breaking because I "can't" get further away, the retarded ass dps won't get off the damn boss to break it.

Then proceeds to kvetch he died to it.

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Originally Posted by Nyghtmarerobu

Basically what this guy said, I try not to give out instructions unless said new person speaks up and asks before we pull what he/she needs to be doing. Some people like to experience blind runs, and not know the mechanics of a fight, and I respect that.

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I among others that enjoy blind running thank you for keeping that up.

I am lead to believe that there are a slew of causal players that have been carried most of way through the game and think nothing of it. I'm guilty of carrying an FC mate through keeper of the lake before the expansion as she repeated refused to avoid any of the bosses AoE attacks. After 3 wipes, I just made sure she had a stoneskin and adlo on at all times. I still have the recording of the run on my PS4.

There were people that have never done coils so when mechanics like towers from T13 appeared in the final story fight, they were clueless.

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Originally Posted by Blessedbythesun

I am lead to believe that there are a slew of causal players that have been carried most of way through the game and think nothing of it.

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This is something I'm noticing as I repeat dungeons as SCH / SMN and while leveling white mage. These people do not know their rotations or unique abilities that can make a run easier. I guess they're FATE grinding, they don't know rotations or they just stand there and sit. I had one I had to leave to heal because they were not beating the final boss. It's a lack of not knowing or caring about the mechanics, which seem to be made in HW so if you ignore them..you're going to have a bad time. To me, rushing, doesn't shave off enough time to merit taking the risk of a wipe with members you are not aware of their skill as a player.

I had to heal the tank, they just got hit hard so I was healing them. The adds came to take up the tiles and the Bard would go in and start taking down the adds. The SMN sat there, or stayed on the boss. Making this a much harder fight. We wiped to the final boss 6 times while he complained how easy the fight was and why we couldn't clear it.

Then there is the ones who have done these dungeons 800 times. At this point these players are usually burnt out and frustrated, wanting to maximize their time. They are just as harmful because they push new players into habits that end up carrying over to other runs, making them much more difficult.

I've tried to resolve this issue by being the DPS to speed things up, healer DPS' and tank dies..so I started being healer, DPS sit there...and we all die. Now I'm going to try to be the tank, I'm gearing up my WAR and PLD going to run it to 60. In 2.0 people were just as bad but overgeared so I could out heal their mistakes, now..I don't know what to do.

Had something like this happen in my first run of Sohm Al. I've been leveling a WHM with a PLD friend and as we get in one dps says they are new. So are we, no big deal. However the one person who had been there was our NIN, who proceeded to ignore all adds in favor of trying to burn the boss. This kind of thing is fine I guess if you have a level synced party who have all done the fights before but with everyone just a level above the required and new, it was a mess. The other dps would try to do her job but fail because she didn't have back up and the NIN's plan to burn the boss didn't work very well because the other dps wasn't on the same page. We nearly died on the 2nd boss due to room wide damage that could have been avoided easily by actually taking part in the mechanics.

Personally I feel like if you are going to 'burn' bosses and ignore fight mechanics it needs to be decided on out loud and agreed to. As healer, its right up there with tanks who attempt massive speed runs without making sure the healer is ok with it. Don't just expect people to do it your way and deal with the damage you cause by trying to shave a few minutes off completion time. Especially when your way is counter intuitive to how things are supposed to be done. I'm hoping this doesn't become a trend. Yeah it might make the dungeon a tiny bit shorter but those people are also the ones who get parties killed because they become accustomed to ignoring adds/positioning etc and forget that you might have new players or under geared ones who might not be ready to deal with more incoming damage and the like. When all is said and done if you want to mindlessly bash something to level, I'm of the opinion you should go farm fates and stay out of dungeons XD

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Originally Posted by Nyghtmarerobu

Basically what this guy said, I try not to give out instructions unless said new person speaks up and asks before we pull what he/she needs to be doing. Some people like to experience blind runs, and not know the mechanics of a fight, and I respect that.

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Thank you for that. When I go into a dungeon/raid NOTHING annoys me more than the 1 person explaining the mechanics... I mean the kind "Do that." and dont mention the why. I run blind and unless people ask for explaination I dont say anything.
We even have FC raids... We pull let them experience and figure and then I explain. Yesterday undersized 6 man T9 3 people with kill XP (me one of them but firsttime tanking) and 2 people second time in at all we got to P4 quite steady and wiped to thunder ice fires only so yea. Experience > have someone explain what you dont understand > guide to read up again if needed

I'm sorry but if you're annoyed that someone is trying to kindly explain mechanics, you're being a bit of a jerk. If you want to go blind its easy enough to tell the group you're new and would like to go in blind. I myself try to explain a boss to new players, not cuz I want to force anything on them or be rude. I just want to help them out. Say up front you want to go blind and I won't have any issues at all

If you are wanting to run blind, make a party finder and join with other like minded players. Most that use duty finder would like to efficiently kill the boss in one shot, if that means telling you the mechanics, deal with it.

The only person being inconsiderate here is the blind runner whose puts their own desire to not know what to do, over the general group ideal of efficient clears with competent players. Choosing to blind run, ie refusing to read what others explain before the pull since this is dungeons we are talking about no need to watch a video, is essentially choosing be incompetent for that specific fight and expecting others to wait for you to learn by trial and error. That is what a single player game is for.

People try to compare the JP community to the US/EU and this is the basic difference. US/EU somehow it is inconsiderate to infringe on a DF players right to be clueless. JP is it inconsiderate to be clueless in a DF.

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Originally Posted by NyxVampiria

I'm sorry but if you're annoyed that someone is trying to kindly explain mechanics, you're being a bit of a jerk. If you want to go blind its easy enough to tell the group you're new and would like to go in blind. I myself try to explain a boss to new players, not cuz I want to force anything on them or be rude. I just want to help them out. Say up front you want to go blind and I won't have any issues at all

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I would have to agree.

In either scenario it is the new person's responsibility to speak up. If you want to run blind, say so. If you're not sure about mechanics, ask about them.

I don't understand the ignoring mechanics thing unless it's in very specific fights, such as the first boss of Sohm Al, who is the only boss in the new dungeons that you can effectively do this with without really endangering the party. All other fights, you HAVE to kill adds, you're going to wipe otherwise.

As for mentioning you're new, I will explain a fight if I feel it's really needed (which most of the time I do). Those times I keep it simple and sweet.

Sohm Al boss 1: Ignore adds, burn the boss.
Sohm Al boss 2: Stack for Red, get away from party for blue, kill green slime.
Sohm Al boss 3: Take comets to corners and stay there until marker is gone, then return to center. Kill wings ASAP when they can be hit.

Because really, short of Raids and Trials, most bosses are easily explained in few words.

I prefer mechanics to be carried out..when I'm tanking. Just makes things so much easier.

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Originally Posted by BroodingFicus

Had something like this happen in my first run of Sohm Al.

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First boss of sohm al you are better off ignoring the bees, I've yet to have a group that could successfully kill all the bees before the aoe and go back to boss, this results in the fight taking 10x longer because there is almost no dps on boss.

Second boss you only need to kill the big green slime, for the red/blue ones you just ignore them and burn boss, stack for fire marker and spread for ice marker. Could probably ignore the big one too if healer is really on the ball with pre explosion stoneskins.

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Originally Posted by Gorlioliolio

First boss of sohm al you are better off ignoring the bees, I've yet to have a group that could successfully kill all the bees before the aoe and go back to boss, this results in the fight taking 10x longer because there is almost no dps on boss.

Second boss you only need to kill the big green slime, for the red/blue ones you just ignore them and burn boss, stack for fire marker and spread for ice marker. Could probably ignore the big one too if healer is really on the ball with pre explosion stoneskins.

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Guess we are dicks.


Took us all of 2 mins to figure out stack red, split blure .. however we ignore the green slime and make our healer heal through that crap :) We dont divert DPS to the green, we just ignore it and heal pops a CD to heal though it nps. As long as your stacked (Red inc) or spread (Blue inc) and the healer throws the respective heal .. IE group heal for red / ST heal on target for blue .. all golden. Guess we are dicks and make our heal sux that crap up :)

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

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When I originally posted this, I was specifically thinking of Nidhogg from The Aery and how players would not free others from the binding. Now I get to enjoy watching two players die on Ser Charibert because they refuse to stretch the chain or dodge the knights. Once again, these players don't claim to be new to these dungeons either.

I die to fetter in Aery often... It really makes me mad.

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

I'll never forget the Lalafell tank in Sohm Al who got mad at a dps for attacking an add...then proceeded to lecture the party telling them to ignore adds in every boss fight as a general rule. My healer got into an argument with her about it. The dps finally said plaintive can we just clear this?

Ignore all adds. Everywhere. For every fight. ...good luck with that.

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Well, with Sohm Al, you can ignore all but one add in the boss fights (the green slime).

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Originally Posted by Akei

Guess we are dicks.
Took us all of 2 mins to figure out stack red, split blure .. however we ignore the green slime and make our healer heal through that crap :) We dont divert DPS to the green, we just ignore it and heal pops a CD to heal though it nps. As long as your stacked (Red inc) or spread (Blue inc) and the healer throws the respective heal .. IE group heal for red / ST heal on target for blue .. all golden. Guess we are dicks and make our heal sux that crap up :)

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In those 2 minutes of not stacking for red, good chance you may have killed someone or yourself. Not killing the green, good chance you may have killed the group. a bit more than 2 minutes when you may be causing wipes because someone in party typing what to do somehow infringes on your god given right to be ignorant and get carried. So yes, dicks is a good word for it.

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Originally Posted by Edewen

If you are wanting to run blind, make a party finder and join with other like minded players. Most that use duty finder would like to efficiently kill the boss in one shot, if that means telling you the mechanics, deal with it.

The only person being inconsiderate here is the blind runner whose puts their own desire to not know what to do, over the general group ideal of efficient clears with competent players.

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This.


Tbh, they aren't even running blind, they are just being carried and making others work harder. If the other three know the dungeon, its not blind, you aren't beating the dungeon, you are being a ball and chain they drag through.

I like blind runs myself. Do you know when I do them? Soon as the content is released, when everyone is blind. Forming a blind PF if it is dated content is how you run it blind later.

Example, two Qarn nm runs yesterday to level AST, three "blind" players. Two of which die to every doom, one who ignores Bees and lets them kill me (the healer) as I have aggro. One of them spends the burn phase of the second boss bitching at the other dps to stop wasting the lb, and save it for the last boss, despite him using it properly. He actually saved the first boss with it after her third or forth death to doom, me low on mp, everyone low on hp and the bees come up. He got everything with a quick MCH lb. I was impressed. One of the failed opening every door and spawned enemies. Even ran forward and spawned all enemies on the last scales as soon as we pulled the last hall, which does not work smoothly. What happened to that dps, they unanimously ended up back in the dps Qarn queue.

The above story outlines my point that it you are stubbornly blind running everything in DF, you are that person to one degree or another.

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Originally Posted by Edewen

In those 2 minutes of not stacking for red, good chance you may have killed someone or yourself. Not killing the green, good chance you may have killed the group. a bit more than 2 minutes when you may be causing wipes because someone in party typing what to do somehow infringes on your god given right to be ignorant and get carried. So yes, dicks is a good word for it.

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You miss understood my meaning.

Our first blind run ... it took us all of two mins to figure out the fight. Stack red, split blue. We DO stack on red (unless its on me - the tank, I just eat that crap solo) and we split on blue. We do NOT however DPS the green, our healer just heals the pulse. We dont die .. so works for us. This was week one in leveling gear. You dont have to DPS green unless your healer is not on the ball. /shrug.

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Originally Posted by Akei

You miss understood my meaning.

Our first blind run ... it took us all of two mins to figure out the fight. Stack red, split blue. We DO stack on red (unless its on me - the tank, I just eat that crap solo) and we split on blue. We do NOT however DPS the green, our healer just heals the pulse. We dont die .. so works for us. This was week one in leveling gear. You dont have to DPS green unless your healer is not on the ball. /shrug.

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One story about one mechanic does not make an argument. So you managed to survive because the healer saw the dps not doing their job, and blew his wad to carry you. You aren't helping your point. You are really only helping mine. Now if the entire group was blind, that is a different story. But inflicting the blind run attitude on duty finder would mean that you just made a complete stranger have a harder time of this just to carry you. Regardless of whether you survived, I repeat, dicks is a good word for it.

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Originally Posted by Edewen

One story about one mechanic does not make an argument. So you managed to survive because the healer saw the dps not doing their job, and blew his wad to carry you. You aren't helping your point. You are really only helping mine. Now if the entire group was blind, that is a different story. But inflicting the blind run attitude on duty finder would mean that you just made a complete stranger have a harder time of this just to carry you. Regardless of whether you survived, I repeat, dicks is a good word for it.

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i am pretty certain they run as a group together

If you really want to see "ignoring crucial mechanics" check out the higher level guildhests.

I was in an "Annoy the Void" (level 30) earlier today that manage to wipe because the DpS were obsessed with burning the main target instead of killing the Hounds that spawn based on the damage it takes. I was tanking close to a dozen hounds before I died. They proceeded to then eat the rest of the party and I learned that the hounds don't despawn on a wipe.

Several other guildhests are also made harder by DpS trying to burn stuff.

One concept that a lot of people do not learn is: "In some fights adds spawn based on Boss hp." Failure to learn this is one of the main reasons Pharos Sirus was so killer.

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Originally Posted by NyxVampiria

I'm sorry but if you're annoyed that someone is trying to kindly explain mechanics, you're being a bit of a jerk. If you want to go blind its easy enough to tell the group you're new and would like to go in blind. I myself try to explain a boss to new players, not cuz I want to force anything on them or be rude. I just want to help them out. Say up front you want to go blind and I won't have any issues at all

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The issue I really have is people that explain it or even wrong when you know the mechanic and don't stfu even if people ask several times (had that in A1 on sunday).

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

One concept that a lot of people do not learn is: "In some fights adds spawn based on Boss hp." Failure to learn this is one of the main reasons Pharos Sirus was so killer.

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And sadly, it was nerfed :(

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

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I still have nightmares of a Tank who, despite 15 straight minutes of us trying to communicate in English and Auto-translate that he needed to move the turtle to the sleep bag, decided the best way to finish "Hero on the Halfshell" was to solo kill the turtle.

Alternatively, I could also talk about the group that never quite understood the meaning of "kill them all at once" in Ward Up.

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Originally Posted by Gorlioliolio

Second boss you only need to kill the big green slime, for the red/blue ones you just ignore them and burn boss, stack for fire marker and spread for ice marker. Could probably ignore the big one too if healer is really on the ball with pre explosion stoneskins.

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If your group DPS is good you can burn the boss before green slime even spawns.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

One concept that a lot of people do not learn is: "In some fights adds spawn based on Boss hp." Failure to learn this is one of the main reasons Pharos Sirus was so killer.

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It still is a killer. If the any set of dogs is not killed before the next set, a wipe is sure to happen.