Agree with every point. Stolen from reddit, original post here: http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen...ent_of/ct9r8oj
I'm a tank main, and have mostly been PLD throughout 2.0. I also played WAR but my PLD has been more valued by the groups i've been in. I was/am so bored with PLD that i desperately wanted to switch to DRK. I have both it and PLD leveled to 60 with hive weapon and i've taken both through Ravana and A1-4.
I absolutely see where DRK is supposed be, and its REALLY close to being a great and equally good tank to the other two, but there are just a couple of strange decisions they made that will prevent it from being a EQUAL or BETTER option than the other two. I don't believe this to be a case of "being played poorly." i recognize that some of my play of it can be improved by my MP management which is really the only way that a DRK specifically can be played poorly compared to the other two.
to start, compare it to the strengths of the other two:
•PLD as MT - Shield Blocking. having a shield provides SO MUCH extra physical mitigation its not even funny. This and Hallowed Ground are the reason PLDs are the default MT in progression (not saying there's no room for switches, default just means the start point).
•PLD as OT freedom to use Clemency, Stoneskin, and divine veil the party if they are in need of it and in a different location on the field than the boss.
•WAR as MT - if properly played, always has Inner Beast mitigation when needed whereas PLD will eventually run out of cooldowns.
•WAR as OT - Easy oGCD stance dancing, incredible snap/aoe aggro with Overpower.
•WAR utility - Additionally, this goes as MT or OT. WAR Storm's eye benefits tank and ninja DPS and Storm's Path is unparalleled mitigation and nigh required in hard progression content. Path particularly is next to irreplaceable
Now looking at DRK, the DESIGN seems to be that as a MT it can Parry/Reprisal to reduce damage and be a good tank for magical based fights compared to physical (Dark Mind is a short cooldown and very powerful with Dark Arts buff) and can dual stance both Grit and Darkside to put out better numbers than a PLD mt. Its cool down structure also strongly mimics PLD. As an OT its biggest unique benefit is Plunge which would allow instant add hitting. It, like warrior, maybe even better than warrior, can be a "set it and forget it" button for a party on large groups of adds with proper use of blood price, Dark arts, and Abyssal Drain. In terms of party utility, it removes the "requirement" of a party having to have a monk for Dragon Kick through Delirium.
In IMPLEMENTATION, however, some bizarre design decisions prevent it from doing well in any of these areas. Consider first that nothing replaces Storm's Path in hard content. NOTHING. So with that right there you have to look at DRK replacing the PLD in a group. What's the point of that though? It does not get the shield blocking for basic mitigation, ok that's fine. but parry overall is weaker than blocking, and a DRK has only one, poor, tool for enhancing parry rate. further, the most interesting damage mitigation mechanic DRK has is a proc off of parry for a class that seems designed to be a magical tank alternative to the more physical PLD. this means in A4 where the boss does ZERO physical damage. ZERO. You will never be able to use Reprisal unless you are working on one of the adds. Further, and i sorta get the aim of this again, but practically speaking reprisal lasts 20s and has a cooldown of 30s. I guess they want it to be a "targeted" debuff and not an "always on" debuff like Path. But a targeted debuff needs to be RELIABLE (Virus, Inner Beast). They put Reprisal in this muddled middle that ends up making it useless rather than versatile.
Next look at Delirium; yes its lovely now a group doesn't have to bring a MNK. But.....many groups are going to bring a MNK anyway because they still are probably highest single-target in the game and traited Mantra is ridiculously utilitarian for a party in progression. So where does that leave delirium? Nowhere because it does not offer blunt resistance down to benefit the MNK. thus the MNK will always use dragon kick. and all you have is a pointless combo finisher that's only slightly more powerful than an unbuffed Souleater. Even power slash is its own worst enemy. Buffed with Dark Arts one power slash is really enough enmity for an entire fight. That's awesome. But it also means using it is pointless as long as you have the MP to be buffing Souleater. don't have the MP to do that? well don't power slash combo either because you need that syphon strike to regen. PLD's and WAR's three combo finishers? all have a definitive benefit.
Where does all of this leave DRK in terms of party utility? on the outskirts. PLD has Clemency, Divine Veil, Cover, Stoneskin. WAR has Storm's Path and Eye. DRK has nothing to rival any of this.
One more problem on the pile is its TP usage. PLDs can use shield swipe to mitigate tp drain without losing out on DPS or enmity. WARs have GCD Infuriated abilities that give it a break from TP drain that are a DPS BOOST. DRKs have nothing of the sort as a MT and run out of TP faster than the other two which really seems quite backwards on a Tank that was sold as MP management. its an unfair disadvantage to darks, and there is no reasonable way to mitigate it. (spamming a spell like unmend or unleash is not a reasonable way to mitigate tp drain as a main tank as it is a definitive dps loss and hurts your MP).
It sounds like i'm piling on, and the only reason I am is to drive home the point that in HARD content, there is zero benefit to including a DRK right now because it offers nothing in terms of party utility while having wonky job mechanics that make it a poor choice for any tank-work that the two existing jobs offer. DRK is fun to play and can handle dungeons and most current content just fine. I also said at the beginning of this wall of text that DRK is REALLY close to being a great option, and that's because to fix all of this, only a couple of things need to happen.
•Switch cross-class skills from GLD/MRD to GLD/LNC - this gives it a second parry tool and fixes any tp problems and adds an extra OT DPS booster benefit.
•add a blunt or magic resist down to Delirium; give some party utility to the MNK or to casters who may be missing their Foe's requiem if your team brings a MCH instead of a bard and give all three combo finishers some point
•adjust reprisal to either be a virus-like targeted debuff ability that is always available OR switch the cooldown timer with the debuff timer (20s cooldown, 30s debuff) and make it able to proc off any damage, not just parried damage.
•adjust Dark Dance so that, when buffed with Dark Arts, it BREAKS the current cap on parry strength.
None of these are game breaking, hard to make changes, and these four things would instantly make DRK a great tank option, keep it within its flavor, and make it an equal in terms of the discussion about which of the three to bring
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07-21-2015, 03:04 AMhealthetankThe Best Writeup I've Seen About Current DRK Status + Concerns - Check it out!
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07-21-2015, 03:56 AMHundred
The TP is so exaggerated.
Shield swipe is 210 potency, 40 TP.
You do 5.25 Potency per point of TP.
TP regen is 20 per second (updated every 3 seconds) Shield swipe is 16 TP per second at 2.5 GCD. 20-16 =4. Its an extra 4 TP based entirely on when you block.
Unmend is 150 potency, 0 TP. You do 150 potency, for no TP as its an MP skill.
TP regen is 20 per second(updated every 3 seconds) Unmend is 0 TP per second at 2.5s GCD. 20-0 = 20. You have full regen during it and as such 2.5 x 20 = 50. You regain 50 TP for every Unmend. (unless you have spell speed/Blood weapon active). Based on having sufficient MP to use it.
Let's take A4 for instance. The Manipulator hits you with magical damage you cannot block, if the fight actually lasted that long when a PLD ran out of TP given Shield swipe is entirely inapplicable they would have to wait. A drk would Unmend to keep up some damage, and then go back into attacking with TP skills.
The base TP expenditure for all tanks is 25.33 per second, this gets increased by skill speed.
Equilibrium heals 3.33 TP per second if used on cooldown while in Deliverance.
Blood weapon used on Cooldown puts Drk to 26.320346320346320346320346320346 a second.
Not attacking (Pacified) causes 100 TP to regen. GCD's that cost no TP recover 50 TP as well at base.
Thats why War's TP costs are greatly diminished at present.
PLD vs Drk TP is a joke. In a magical Fight PLD is intrinsically at a disadvantage as their options to replenish TP when @ while still "doing" something is well hit Flash lol. In a regular fight when they both run out, Drk will start spending mana for damage until they regain TP and PLD will simply wait. Given Drk already does more damage main tanking puh lease.
Drk's cross-classes are fine. Parry strength being consist 20% is fine and the consistency leaves it understandable for their general audience. -
07-21-2015, 04:13 AMGeekMatt
It is both horrible and hilarious that your characters name is Raubahn's Arm
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07-21-2015, 04:19 AMTimat
I admit the author bring up good points (a magic based tank having a parry boost CD....and thier golden debuff skill is a parry proc skill)
Good read. -
07-21-2015, 06:15 AMKiteless
Definitely agree with a lot of this. Especially DRK's complete lack of value as an OT. Honestly, I would never let a DRK OT in any party composition, it's just an awful idea.
Also, I really dislike the idea of having a dedicated "magical tank." With the need to set a standard for a fight that would make it tankable by any job, you end up just having to make those fights inherently easier so that everyone can actually do it, while one tank is just left facerolling through (although DRK can't even really dominate magic heavy fights, so I guess they got around that...). If they want to differentiate tanks, they're going to have to do a lot better than which defensive value is arbitrarily chosen. -
07-21-2015, 06:25 AMGalgarionClearly this man needs to level a monk so he can punch Ilberd in the face.Quote:
Originally Posted by GeekMatt
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07-21-2015, 06:30 AMstoxasticLucrezia would beg to differ (Ravana Ex):Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiteless
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmhmbzwASX0
Parse:
http://i.imgur.com/HneKGxq.png
DRK 834 DPS
DRK isn't as bad as ppl make it out to be. Maybe one tweak from the OPs suggestions might be OK. Give them all of that and the job will be too broken. -
07-21-2015, 06:35 AMKyros
My main gist with DRK is the lack of Self-synergy. DRK is a tank that want's to get hit, but has so man contradicting abilities. Blood Price, Reprisal, and Low Blow all need you go get hit to work, but Dark Passenger and Dark Dance raise your evasion?! Why? Who was the genius who thought of this?
Heck, Low Blow is a detriment to itself. You need a Parry to Reset it's CD, but you just stunned it and are therefore not getting hit. Woops?
And then there's Reprisal, which would be amazing against Magic Damage except that it's tied to a Physical Damage sources. Almost the entirety of A4 is Magical yet you can not use it because you need a Parry.
It was a good write-up, except for this obvious oversight. PLD can weave Clemency/SS just as freely as DRK can weave Unmend. It all comes down to what is more important, a 150 potency damage skill or a 1200(+600) cure. And that's about the gist of the issue. DRK can do adequate, but it brings nothing else. Heck, if we start getting into raid territory, those heals can traduce into even more damage. A PLD can self-sustain himself for about 6 GCD's worth of cures in 2 Clemency's, which if abused by his healers can mean a lot more DPS than the 300 or so you'd get from Unmend.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hundred
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07-21-2015, 06:48 AMKitelessI've seen that video and parse, and I'm willing to bet that the only reason they brought DRK as an OT was because they didn't want to compromise their limit meter gains with two WARs (keep in mind, the WAR only parsed lower because, as MT, there are portions of the fight where he can't attack). This speedrun is a very niche situation, and that DRK is only valuable because he provides extra meter gain (and isn't hurt by horrible TP sustain, thanks to Ravana's constant downtime).Quote:
Originally Posted by stoxastic
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07-21-2015, 07:09 AMMike555Adding what others posters already said, nobody can run out of TP on ravana because even with the ridiculous mechanic skipping they achieved there is still plenty of downtime. DRK runs out of TP in literally 2 minutes if they have 100% uptime which is a complete joke when you consider that WAR has infinite TP and can rival their DPS and PLD will always be MT where they can Shield Swipe to at least slow down the bleeding. DRK OT is situational as heck, and not in the sense that it's decent in some and amazing in some others but that it's garbage most of the time and only good in some.Quote:
Originally Posted by stoxastic
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07-21-2015, 07:20 AMGiantbaneunmend isn't that bad, really. It's 150 pot move that, for all intents and purposes regens 50tp. It *is* a DPS loss, but so is shield swipe (when you consider goring & royal authority). Shield swipe is less of a DPS loss, but it only regens 10tp (it is 40tp, right?). So Unmend is a larger dps loss compared to shield swipe, but unmend gives the DRK 5x more TP than shield swipe gives the PLD. The result being you have to do it less often. And as was stated, unmend is not dependent upon a block proc, you can do it whenever needed. This also works for the DRK as an OT. PLD gets nothing when OT to deal with TP loss, they're just out and have to switch to heals/stoneskin.Quote:
Originally Posted by healthetank
Granted, I still think both classes could use a little more in the TP department. For DRK, it would be nice to have a stronger melee version of unmend that would serve the same purpose. Probably more conventional TP restoration for the PLD. Maybe have sheltron restore TP in sword oath?
I have no idea why they gave WAR deliverance AND equilibrium's TP restoration. You'd think Deliverance would have been enough, as you'll be putting out fel cleaves on the regular (no TP cost).
this is a bad idea. Foresight is actually pretty good with current armor levels. Something like 16%+ pure mitigation not dependent on RNG. Keen flurry is nowhere near as effective.Quote:
Originally Posted by healthetank
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07-21-2015, 07:20 AMXenosan^I think addressing this should be the first practical thing to do. The WS rotations are sort of a foundation..Quote:
Originally Posted by healthetank
Needs some love. Utility, potency+ (merge with Scourge?), MP/HP absorb, idk anything.
PLD has a reason to use all 3 combos. WAR has a reason to at least consider all 3 combos.. DRK outside aggro: no reason. I've actually put Spinning Slash & Power Slash down at the bottom of my hotbars where potions and LB usually go - just cuz it's such an infrequent thing -
07-21-2015, 07:40 AMJandor
I can't figure out why parrying resets low blow instead of reprisal...
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07-21-2015, 07:58 AMspelleyAs I've said before in other threads, Dark Dance should give back TP when not in Grit, probably 200 TP or 300 with Dark Arts. Gives usually useless OT skill a purpose on an appropriate CD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenosan
As for Power Slash, I don't see a problem having it be a specialty tool. You use it once, maybe reapplying later if your DPSers are really good and then stick to your mana regening abilities. Dark Arts Power Slash is your "snap aggro" skill, like a Warrior doing Berserk/Unchained + Overpower. -
07-21-2015, 09:30 AMHundredBecause low blows has the highest CD of all tanks stuns, but the fact that it can be reset is to make up for this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jandor
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07-21-2015, 06:22 PMJandorJust give low blows a lower CD then :/Quote:
Originally Posted by Hundred
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07-21-2015, 06:48 PMLadon
Why are people bringing up using Unmend to allow for TP regen?
Unmend cost mana and doesn't return any mana from Blood Weapon. So not only is it a big DPS loss by just using it, but you are destroying your ability to dish out damage again when you actually get TP back. -
07-21-2015, 08:51 PMsaber_alterbut that's not the only tp regen tool that paladin has, no? paladin has access to both stoneskin and clemency. yes during big hits it gets stunned, but it's the same amount of regen, helps with mitigation, and doesn't use a primary resource like drk does. meanwhile unmend doesn't work with blood weapon, forces us to guzzle our mp (because remember, unless your that afraid to bottom out, darkside will still be up), and doesn't really help anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Giantbane
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07-21-2015, 09:19 PMDererk
I really must be doing something right or very wrong because IV only ran out of tp 1 or 2 times as far as i can remember.
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07-21-2015, 10:52 PMKynianNo offense then, but you're doing something wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dererk
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07-21-2015, 11:27 PMXenosan
You don't TP starve MTing A4?
By the second leg at 50% I usually am.
Imagine it's even worse for PLDs (but maybe they should be OTing) -
07-22-2015, 04:23 AMGiantbaneQuote:
Originally Posted by Ladon
Unmend is currently the absolute best thing you can do as a DRK when you're out of TP. It's the most damage/mana move we have. And don't overstate the amount of damage we get from mana. All excess mana gets dumped into DA + Soul eater. It takes 5 unmend to use that much mana. So for every unmend, you're losing the potential to do about 32 potency worth of damage (DA souleater adds 160 potency, 160 / 5 = 32). This isn't really destroying your damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by saber_alter
Blood weapon is irrelevant. You use unmend when blood weapon is on cooldown so you don't have to use it while blood weapon is up.
I'm not saying unmend is the be all/end all. I would prefer we had a stronger/single target version that would result in less of a DPS loss (and also applied a useful debuff for some much needed utility). But barring that, it's functional and what you should be doing right now.
Clemency/Stoneskin are good, but sometimes you just want to do more damage. PLD has limited/no options for this now. It's not really in any better state than DRK as far as TP is concerned. -
07-22-2015, 04:49 AMYorumi
Maybe someone can help me here, I can't figure out how drks are using more tp than a pld while tanking? I can see a tiny difference while off tanking because of blood weapon increasing speed. Even then when a pld runs out they can't do any damage besides AA and circle of scorn on cooldown.
If anything I'd argue that while tanking they have better tp management than pld. Shield swipe is 40 tp and a dps loss. It also can't be used while not tanking. Unmend, while less potency, is 0 tp, which would get you back enough usable tp faster than a pld doing shield swipe. -
07-22-2015, 05:25 AMGooner_iBluAirJGR
Nice read but one point did catch my eye. A4's final boss being a full Magic Damage fight had a negative effect on all of the tanks. Warrior can't make use of their parry (Raw Intuition and Defiance Stacks) and Paladins can't use their blocking (Bulwark) or parrying.
With that said, as a Warrior MT with a Dark Knight OT in my static, I'd love to see the following changes:
Reprisal: Dark Arts Effect: Usable without Parrying an Attack.
Delirium: Reduces Targets Magic Damage Dealt by 10% (as opposed to intelligence)
I think those twinks would go a long way towards improving the Dark Knights synergy.
#ProblemSolved
#WarriorForever -
07-22-2015, 05:43 AMNektulos-Tuor
Blood Weapon usable when tanking please.. q.q
Just make it restore HP instead, maybe 15-20% HP, and 10% MP without Grit.
Make Dark Arts have a secondary effect that lowers damage taken for 10 seconds after use.
I feel like TP should be our weakness though, however. -
07-22-2015, 12:18 PMsaber_alterhard slash: 150 potency, syphon strike: 250 potency, delerium: 280 potency, Da'ed souleater: 400 potency.Quote:
Originally Posted by Giantbane
unmend: 150 potency.
150x3 is 450 potency, 150+250+280 is 680 potency, 150+250+400 is 800 potency.
150x5 is 750 potency, 150+250+280+150+250 is 1080 potency, 150+250+400+150+250 is 1200 potency.
what?
you were saying? tp or mp is irrelevant. a resource is a resource. don't cherry-pick if your trying to make an argument.
irrelevant, blood weapon spamming unmend would destroy our mp, the point is that we don't get mp steal (for obvious reasons)Quote:
Blood weapon is irrelevant. You use unmend when blood weapon is on cooldown so you don't have to use it while blood weapon is up.
clemency and stoneskin can potentially save you from a hard hit. unmend doesn't do that at all. a pld could spam stoneskin, bottom out on mp, and be none the wiser. DRK spams unmend for too long to regain mp, and darkside falls off and they have to spend a few seconds resources starved again trying to get to a safe threshold recovering.Quote:
I'm not saying unmend is the be all/end all. I would prefer we had a stronger/single target version that would result in less of a DPS loss (and also applied a useful debuff for some much needed utility). But barring that, it's functional and what you should be doing right now.
Clemency/Stoneskin are good, but sometimes you just want to do more damage. PLD has limited/no options for this now. It's not really in any better state than DRK as far as TP is concerned.