If you want MCH to be support, let us be support.

So, I've been giving it some thought and honestly, while I can't speak intelligently on BRD (BRD players will have to comment on their class), MCH doesn't really feel like a support class. Pretty much all of our utility skills are short lasting, on long cooldowns and are entirely situational. I consider us less a support class and more an "oh ****" class. Everything we have is situational at best and isn't truly supporting the party. When things hit the fan, we're useful. When not, we're a burden. That's NOT how support is supposed to be, so I've come up with a few suggestions to make MCH real support and not a class that's just brought along for progression and then dropped when they aren't needed anymore.

MP/TP Regen: Give the turrets back their attacks, remove the 15% damage loss from BRD. Reason: We already have lower damage due to lower weapon damage. No need to punish us again for doing the job we're supposed to be doing.

Physical/Magical Vulnerability: Make it more like Hot Shot. Something that needs to be refreshed or even uses MP, but lets it stay up as a permanent buff. Reason: There are a few classes that can keep up a permanent debuff of 10% against slashing/piercing. No reason why we, as a support class, shouldn't be able to give 5% to the whole party for physical or magical all the time. This would help make up for the lower dps we do.

Dismantle/Rend Mind: Same as above. Reason: Helps ease the burden on the healers throughout the fight instead of just on situational tank busters. This makes it useful much more than the 10 seconds we can do every 90 seconds.

Obviously, they'd have to balance these. My suggestion would be to possibly have them be different "turret stances" or something like that where they drain mana. They could even be various "promotions"-- or, Knight Promotion for damage reduction, Queen promotion for damage buff and King promotion for regen. You can only have one stance up at a time, either providing a damage boost, damage reduction or tp/mp regen. We may have to switch them depending on the situation. This would allow us to really support the party at all times and justify the lower dps we have in all content, not just end game raiding content. I'll gladly take a hit to dps like we have now if I felt like I was always bringing something to the party through all content and not just holding the group back.

Dude I posted almost exactly this in another topic like four minutes after you, did you read my mind or something?

I mean, not exactly the same, but I had the same idea to make a proposed utility tweak topic on this too. We had a few different ideas, but I still agree with the primary prospect- if we're going to be based more on support and debuffing, our support and debuffs shouldn't be taking a backseat to losers who do more DPS than us anyway. +1, totes.

I fully agree. Bard and Machinist are the only DPS jobs fully considered support, yet suffer damage penalties for actually being so. THEN we are further penalized when we utilize our support skills. Why this is logical in the eyes of the developers is beyond me, but when other DPS jobs not only do more damage than we do, and also have far better/useful party support abilities, AND on shorter cooldowns, then who are we really supporting here?

SE, if anything, this fundamental approach to the "support" DPS needs a second look. We're not asking to be top DPS or anything of the sort. But at least let us shine at the unspoken role we're shoehorned into.

I think the fundamental fuck up must go back to when they somehow decided bard would be the follow up to archer.

I 1000000000000000000000000% support this.

I feel like they wanted to go a certain direction with MCH and that they undertuned everything incredibly hard. I want them to just up our support abilities through the roof, at present they aren't noticeable at all. Like really they aren't.

Just put the pedal to the metal and crank MCH's support up to where it was envisioned. There is no possible way that they envisioned it to be this terribly low AND restricted by so many factors like cooldowns and shared cooldown with other skills, short duration, etc.

I guess it depends how valuable these 'support' skills are during alexander savage. If it turns out that actually having a brd/mch is vital to clearing the fight or are preferred to another damage dealing class, then fine, but if groups can clear it just as efficiently without a brd/mch, why bring one at all. In theory, brd/mch mp/tp regen abilities provide excellent raid utility, keeping healers healing and dps attacking, not to mention foe's requiem (and the mch equivalent) . It's just a case of whether brd/mch raid utility compensates for their lower dps.

oh lord... this again. I cant even ...... ok Im just going to repost an old-ish post because all these "OMG BRD/MCH is support" just gives me a "give up on humanity" headache.

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Originally Posted by Kayote

I want to see where I can queue up as support. Show me in what current content I can sit back, buff the shit out of everyone and not get kicked for sucking. I will eat every word Ive said on the subject. Go ahead.


..... We're not support, it does not exist.

You want to see what real support class looks like? In a game with actual support roles. Educate yourself!
http://telarapedia.gamepedia.com/Bard_abilities

Notice how its also a Bard, a support Bard none the less. Thats what a (list of skills for) support class looks like. All kinds of buffs and even heals! Now compare that to (FFXIV) BRD. K thx.

BTW .. this is what DF looks like in a game with a support role.
http://www.junkiesnation.com/wp-cont...ide-header.jpg
Count them ... 4, not 3 ... 4. Thats what 4 roles look like. Now compare that to the DF in FFXIV and tell me if you spot the difference.

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Also, no other class can really do what the Rift Bard does except the other "support" roles. Other DPS classes in this game have comparable buffs with Bards. Bards may be better (arguably) ... but it in no way is it some class defining difference.

Is any of this sinking in yet? Can we stop pretending Bard is a support class now? No? Bah, who am I kidding... of course not.

(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻

I think it's time they implement a split job like SCH/SMN.

Archers can choose between Bard and Sniper. Bard can be picked for if you're raiding and may need the support utilities. Sniper would be for the other 95% of the game where you don't need the support songs, like all the dungeons that aren't raids, trials, that clearly very minor portion of the game where you're going through that story thing and doing quests and aren't always going to be grouping with someone else to kill things for you.

That way Bard can be balanced around their support options, while snipers can be balanced around being DPS.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

I think it's time they implement a split job like SCH/SMN.

Archers can choose between Bard and Sniper. Bard can be picked for if you're raiding and may need the support utilities. Sniper would be for the other 95% of the game where you don't need the support songs, like all the dungeons that aren't raids, trials, that clearly very minor portion of the game where you're going through that story thing and doing quests and aren't always going to be grouping with someone else to kill things for you.

That way Bard can be balanced around their support options, while snipers can be balanced around being DPS.

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Sniper feels more suited for MCH. Ranger would traditionally be the pick for an archer DPS name.

Support tag shouldn't even be considered for MCH. Other than the tp/mp restore, we have no utility. 5% Magical or Physical reduction on 90s cd and 5% Magical or Physical increase on a 120s cd does not qualify as support. I'm surprised that there isn't more interaction with our turret than just overcharge and promote. So much potential available.

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Originally Posted by NovaLevossida

Sniper feels more suited for MCH. Ranger would traditionally be the pick for an archer DPS name.

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I picked Sniper for two reasons. The first is that there's precedence for it in FFTA, where Sniper is one of the upgrades for Archer. The second is that if they desperately wanted to keep WM with cast times, Sniper makes sense because they'd have to take time to aim.

Also, since MCH doesn't have a class, it's harder to split-job them because it'd be two completely different jobs.

Edit: Also, IMHO, a better split for MCH would be Gunner, with turrets replaced with various barrels, like maybe one that fires exploding bullets for X potency to all surrounding enemies.

BRD/MCH could definitely use some beefier support skills. I feel like the most support I offer as a MCH is keeping the casters and healers full on MP, and that comes with the sacrifice of additional damage on my part. Having Dismantle/Rend Mind on the same cool down wouldn't bother me so much but for a wimpy 5% debuff? Then you have DRG's who have Battle Litany which crosses me as a skill better suited for BRDs what with the whole music thing. I enjoy playing MCH a lot, but if I'm going to be DPS/Support then my support skills need to more fully justify my lower damage output.

I think it'd be neat/unique if we had like a short-range channeled heal capability or one which allows us to give a quick burst of speed to an ally (or both!).

I think our support options are dull & too carbon-copy to BRD/even less inspired than BRD (BRD's at least have Keeper's Paeon & Swiftsong also).

*NEW* Recall: Ability - Instant - Self - 30s CD - 50 TP - increase movement speed by 50% for 3 seconds.

*NEW* Salve: Ability - 1.5 cast - 5y Range - 120s CD - 0 TP - restores target's HP every 0.5s. Cure potency 150. TRAIT: Triage - increases cure potency to 250.

What do you think about these other ideas of mine? Here:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...s-Changes-HERE

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Originally Posted by Kayote

oh lord... this again. I cant even ...... ok Im just going to repost an old-ish post because all these "OMG BRD/MCH is support" just gives me a "give up on humanity" headache.



Also, no other class can really do what the Rift Bard does except the other "support" roles. Other DPS classes in this game have comparable buffs with Bards. Bards may be better (arguably) ... but it in no way is it some class defining difference.

Is any of this sinking in yet? Can we stop pretending Bard is a support class now? No? Bah, who am I kidding... of course not.

(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻

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First, this is a MCH thread, not Bard. Second, did you even read my post or just make assumptions before lashing out in righteous anger? We have lower base dps due to lower weapon damage-- that's a fact that won't change. SE has said that won't change. We are a dps class, yes, but not every dps class has to bring dps in the exact same way. Losing some personal dps to actually support the party with a constant damage buff (or other buff/debuff as needed) would easily make up for that loss. I'm even advocating removing the damage penalty on MP/TP regen. Not sure why this upsets you so much. All I'm lobbying for is to get our currently lackluster "situational" abilities turned into more useful "constant" abilities.

Yoshi P himself stated that Bard and Machinist are considered support for the party. No, it is not a clearly defined role, but just as a SMN can heal or raise in a pinch, or a WHM can DPS, we provide support AS a DPS. . . Only that we are the only jobs penalized for secondary focus.

So yes, we ARE support, for better or worse. We simply want to realize our full potential as such, while still fulfilling our primary focus as DPS. None of us here believe that's so unreasonable.

I feel like SE has just done a terrible job with the class system. From the very beginning with the job crystals, nothing is really going well.

I'm kinda on the fence about this one. On the one hand, I'm not support until they beef the support skills and give me my own spot in the DF. Bards have support utility, they are not a support class. In most of the content in this game, support skills aren't needed if your party composition doesn't require it. The hybrid ridiculousness is poorly implemented. Either we're a support class or we're not. That being said, the fence part comes in here: the support utility is needed at times. So as someone else mentioned, a job split(like specialization in other mmos) is starting to seem necessary. The class system is poorly implemented(as wishles said). MCH doesn't need to be a support hybrid type thing. But if people want those abilities, they should be able to choose to get them. Give us skill trees or something.

Raid-wide TP/MP regen is probably what is meant by support. No amount of utility from the other classes can make up for this incredibly powerful ability. And from what I've experienced in Alexander NM so far, it's going to be needed in Savage.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

When things hit the fan, we're useful. When not, we're a burden.

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With the exception of Foe Requiem, that's how BRD has been since launch. Not sure why you would expect something different from MCH.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Not sure why you would expect something different from MCH.

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Probably because it's a different job. Square is making everything the same(with the exception of PLD and WAR) in an effort to achieve "balance". There's no real difference between MCH and BRD, despite them being different jobs, except for our version of GB is poorly implemented and MCH was built around it. There's no room for individuality in this game because it's all cut and paste "balance"; you have to play each class and job the way everyone else plays or else you're a terrible player. But when it comes to BRD and MCH, some of us want to be a better support class and some of us want to be pure dps; there's no room for us to choose which way to go, and so we get these threads calling for square to pick where we stand and stop with the bad hybrid nonsense.

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Originally Posted by AnnietheCat

Probably because it's a different job. Square is making everything the same(with the exception of PLD and WAR) in an effort to achieve "balance".

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Except that MCH is SE's answer to BRD being "mandatory" in raiding. The only options are to make it so that what BRD brings isn't needed (so why bring BRD at all?) or make it so someone else can offer the same thing (hence MCH). I get not wanting to be a hybrid class, but when you're playing a class that's a direct response to the dominance of the game's other (until recently sole) hybrid class, I don't get why you would expect anything different. Would I have done something different with both? Probably. But that didn't change my expectations of MCH. . .

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Originally Posted by ArtificialxSky

Raid-wide TP/MP regen is probably what is meant by support. No amount of utility from the other classes can make up for this incredibly powerful ability. And from what I've experienced in Alexander NM so far, it's going to be needed in Savage.

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Until it's on farm and MCH/BRD are back to being "the classes that do less dps". People quickly forget a support class when they don't actually need that support. I was just thinking that there's a better way to give us support abilities that keeps us relevant through all content, not just end-game progression.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

With the exception of Foe Requiem, that's how BRD has been since launch. Not sure why you would expect something different from MCH.

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It may have been that way since launch, but it doesn't make it good game design. I was just hoping SE wouldn't actually make MCH a virtual carbon copy of BRD, which is what it is, with arguably worse utility skills.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

Until it's on farm and MCH/BRD are back to being "the classes that do less dps".

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This is never the case. Even on farm--even in speed runs, especially in speed runs-- their regen abilities are invaluable. In FCOB, SMN, healers, melee, WARs and PLDs were all running out of resources while farming.

Now, I want to address your main post, and allow me to rant at length:

In support of your first point, I'd say that removing the damage penalty, considering TP/MP regen already has a cost--the caster's MP--, is a very fair rebalance.

As for the other suggestions, I believe they would push MCH into the realm of being hilariously broken. A perpetual 5%, even 1%, general vulnerability up, or general decrease in damage received, is, in fact, an exorbitant amount of amplification/mitigation over the course of a 7-10 minute fight, and would make MCH already more in demand than it currently is for raiding. And it is in demand, ever as much as BRD.

Now, as for how this suite of utilities looks for MCH--vulnerability increases and damage mitigations-- let's look at a tried and true job that has performed some of these tasks admirably all throughout 2.0 and has become a teammate without which I hesitate to go into raid content, in progression or on farm, or on speed runs--the BRD. No damage mitigation, fair enough, we'll skip it. But Foe's Requiem: it's true that BRD has a long lasting Foe's Requiem, which costs MP, but unlike the other songs, does not decrease the BRD's own damage output, and increases an enemy's vulnerability to magic damage by 10%, for as long as 50 seconds! 50 seconds. The catch is that it is a song and so can't be used in conjunction with Army's Paeon for TP or Mage's Ballad for MP. No big deal. Foe's requiem is amazing for your mage's opener.

Now, my static has two mages. Even if we had only one mage, BRD's utility is set, but we have two. BRD just became MVP of eternity. So. My static has a BRD for Alex Savage ready to go next Tuesday. We also have a TP starved DRK, PLD, and me on melee. We need her with us. I need her with us. No doubts, no holding us back, no nothing, just solid, nay, necessary support. Okay? BRD has a place. I'll repeat, it is valuable and is holding no one back. It is holding no one back.

From this example, one can argue MCH, of a very similar cut from BRD, also has just as solid, nay, necessary, a place, just as BRDs do, in a static. Whereas MCH's Hypercharge vulnerability increase only lasts a "measly" 10 seconds compared to BRD's 50 seconds, consider, for a moment, that MCH's damage amplification is variable between either physical vulnerability (hello double melee comps and BOTH tanks that have always been there!) or magical vulnerability whenever you might need it, all at the user's whim, and can be used while switching out Promotion on the turret, and doesn't cost MP to use. In other words, IT'S FREE!!! (On a side note, even in a double caster composition like my own, Rook Turret Hypercharge would be more valuable raidwide than Bishop's since physical damage still outweighs magical damage in the raid, meaning MCH's ability might actually amplify a greater amount of damage, overall, than BRD's Foe's; and especially so in a double melee comp.)

Now to show how similar in value you, MCH, are, like the BRD, understand that in FCOB, a BRD might get to play Foe's Requiem exactly once in the entire fight, and will, I might reckon, exactly once in these upcoming Alexander Savage fights. The rest of the time, the BRD is playing Army's Paeon for my TP (our tanks included of course) or Mage's Ballad for our SMN and healers. The MCH, on the other hand, gets to use Hypercharge whenever it is off cooldown, and then switch right on back to Promotion for our resources. Now, knowing all these trade-offs and similarities and the value of BRD and MCH's near-equivalence to this most distinguished of job-roles, will you, OP, tell me why, exactly, upon reflection, you feel as though you're "holding your group back"? Oh and I completely forgot to mention MCH has free damage mitigation! Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha! What?

I will say again though, removing the damage penalty while activating TP/MP regen is a great idea. ^^d

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Originally Posted by ArtificialxSky

#amazingpost

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This post left my seat sticky. . .

@ArtificalxSky: I really hope that's the case. However, from my experiences so far, I enter a group and get a lot of "I'm worried about the MCH" from other players. Those were the exact words used during my first Bis Ex clear. Hell, members of my own FC doubted MCH because of lower damage and utility that isn't readily apparent outside of end game content.

As for the party wide damage increase, it would be limited to physical or magical and would be balanced to make up for our lower damage, giving dps that was supposed to be ours to others in the party )supporting them). I also suggested that it wouldn't be able to be used with other stances. If you want physical damage increase, you can't have the magical damage, neither of the damage reductions or mp/TP regen. If you're regenning the party, you don't get any damage increase-- and this all would take MP to use (and possibly even give a reason to put points into a stat other than Dex). It would have to be balanced, obviously. I'm just trying to find ways to make our support more readily apparent outside of cutting edge end game.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

However, from my experiences so far, I enter a group and get a lot of "I'm worried about the MCH" from other players.

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I've been kicked from parties twice just for showing up as BRD. Once for The Vault and once for Bismark HM. No hi, how are ya, just insta-kick. So overall my experience with these changes has left an extremely bad taste in my mouth. Even in the PF you get people saying "bards need not apply" when it comes to raiding(not my thing anyway) and extremes, so it's completely frustrating and I get those MCH feels. Besides, if we're going to be listed as support hybrids, at least stop penalizing us for using the support skills.

I agree. I played bard in XI and loved being a hard-support. I don't play it here because it's basically a pseudo-ranger.

They keep going on and on about how it's support/dps but if you look at something like Bard's new skills there's maybe 1 you could call a support skill and it really sucks - single target single debuff pre esuna? Puhlease.

I think they've locked themselves into the classic mmo triangle too hard and made the classes in each role too homogenous.

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Originally Posted by ckc22

I agree. I played bard in XI and loved being a hard-support. I don't play it here because it's basically a pseudo-ranger.

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The problem with making either MCH or BRD hard support is the fact that the players of each are split. I'd say at least half of us want to simply be ranged physical dps and the other half wants to be hard support. There really needs to be a job split, at least with brd. idk about mch because it doesn't have a starting class, so a job split with mch would just be adding another job. But if we allowed everyone to pick between XI type bard and an actual ranger type class, they'd be happier. Or introduce skill trees so everyone gets a bit more freedom. Overall implementation of the jobs is pretty bad, imo.

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Originally Posted by ArtificialxSky

.....

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Agree fully to this. I do not feel that I weaken the team by being MCH, neither in dps nor support. I also agree with removing the penalty while regenerating which would promote(pun not intended) more useage of said support skills.

I do think a lot of the "MCH is weak" mentality stems from the difficulty the class brings. You can't afford making mistakes left and right and expect doing competative dps. Thumbs up!

I think that the concept of support works okay in savage. Not anywhere else because as a MCH only in savage does the tp/mp regen do anything. Everywhere else they are just gimp DPS.

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Originally Posted by Rumpelstiltzkin

Everywhere else they are just gimp DPS.

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Except that we aren't. Not if played right. MCH is not the run-&-gun, loldps job people might want it to be (and neither is BRD, truthfully). While it's far from perfect, and could indeed use some buffs/tweaks, it's still quite a viable job to play if played right.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Except that we aren't. Not if played right. MCH is not the run-&-gun, loldps job people might want it to be (and neither is BRD, truthfully). While it's far from perfect, and could indeed use some buffs/tweaks, it's still quite a viable job to play if played right.

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Oh, we're definitely viable. But when a DRG is putting out 1300-1400 dps and you're doing maybe 1k and you're not using the class' touted support abilities because they aren't needed and gimp you even further, it does kind of make one feel disheartened. I'm actually going back and leveling my DRG that I haven't touched since he hit 50 over a year ago (I leveled ninja when I came back before Heavensward). I'll still be playing my MCH of course, but I've already got pretty much a full set of DRG law gear waiting

That's actually why I started this thread. I hate having a good portion of my support relegated to "raid only" status and being nothing more than lower dps everywhere else.

Given that i play Bard and Machinist in max level content, the only changes i would make are ...
Bard:
-Foes Requiem changed to reduce ALL resistances by 10%. (Its annoying that it ONLY buffs caster DPS, i want to buff the Monks too)
-Ballad/Army/Wardens, make them all instant, 10 or 15 second recast. Increase the Drain on MP substantially.
-Give us a trait that lets us 'Drain' MP from our targets when dealing damage with certain Weaponskills.
-Increase Weapon Damage to the same as Melee. Perhaps as part of Minuet. Keeping the damage reductions when singing.
{The idea here being that Bards should be singing frequently and restoring MP actively rather than singing once for a long time, then waiting forever for natural MP regen to give enough MP to sing again}

Machinist:
-Remove the Potency bonus on Reload/QReload and bake that into the Weaponskills.
-Rework Reload to be something that we can stack over time while shooting, then activate to eat the stacks and use the guaranteed procs. Quick Reload remains as is. Have Reload also regen MP based on Ammo stacks.
-Change Hypercharge to be a a kind of parallel to Foes Requiem, draining MP to maintain the Vulnerability shots and increased damage. High MP drain in this mode. Much higher than Promotions.
-Increase the Gun weapon damage to mirror Melee.
{The idea here being that Reload right now isn't simply a way to cheat the RNG because of the Potency bonus. Changing it up to be something that generates stacks of spare ammo while we're shooting (But not generating one off every shot), lets us either bank it for a burst period, or use it regularly to cheat the RNG for smoother DPS overall. The Hypercharge change is basically so that we have more interaction with our Turret beyond simply putting it down and sometimes re-positioning}

^In all that, obviously, numbers would be balanced so we're not outright OP.

TP/MP regens are very useful when learning new content or recovering from mistakes, but they're the sort of skills we literally never use unless someone screwed up.
An example is my first Bismark EX clear. Despite both healers regularly dipping under 50%~ MP, neither ever needed me to Ballad. I only ever used Foe's because there was plenty of TP regen time and the Healers were capable of managing their own MP.
Personally, i do not believe we should be penalized for the mere existence of those skills.
Absolutely cut our DPS while Singing regens, But when the Songs aren't needed? I'd like to be able to dedicate the time freed up by not needing to Sing/Promote into pushing more Damage. But we cannot, because we're hardlimited on our damage potential due to much lower weapon damages eating into our basic skill damage.

there is no place in FFXIV for full suppot what we have now is a joke but is the most SE can do.

BRD with regen MP TP and foe
MCH with MP TP regen and vulnerability on long cd
DRG with piercing and crit
NIN with TP regen single target , 10% dmg buff , agro transfers and slashing debuff
War with -10% dmg , slashing debuff
Monk with -int debuff , and blunt debuff
SMN with rez in combat , eye for eye and virus
BLM apoca , virus (no traited) and eyeforeye

all the dps bring something , some more than others , the issue at hand is that MCH/BRD are penalized before using the support (lower potency , cast times and the lowest WD across the board) on top of that -15% dmg while supporting.

Are brd/mch needed? YES , the issue is how the player feels while playing those classes , he feels usefull? what about when support isnt needed? is he happy with the gameplay , lore and how the job looks ect... SE needs to take into account lots of things.

lets see DRG , it feels awesome now , powerfull , good dmg , some utility and fun to play , same could be said for SMN (albeit i would like more synergy with pets ) , Nin hasnt changed , it got some QOL changes , like my SCH , that got some AOE healing and some utility and a new nuke that hits harder ^^

Are DRG , SMN , SCH happy? i would say that yeah

Are BRD and MCH happy? .....erhhhmm

I think the dps is fine when in a savage raiding environment. Outside it? Dunno, tp/mp regen is useless, very little other utility. Give MCH utility outside savage that balances out lower dps. I'd be fine with even lower dps if I could actually provide something else in other content too.

What if... we get rid of the turret, instead add in astrologian's random card mechanics, but modify it to be a kind of blackjack minigame, governed by phantom dice!

Oh, and make all the bullets consumable and very expensive :P

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Originally Posted by Lisotte

What if... we get rid of the turret, instead add in astrologian's random card mechanics, but modify it to be a kind of blackjack minigame, governed by phantom dice!

Oh, and make all the bullets consumable and very expensive :P

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Consumable ammo was used in FFXI for Rangers and wasn't a good idea. Not sure about later in the game's cycle, but Rangers were really overpowered for a while because people would buy Gil from sellers and then buy the best ammo, which other dps couldn't keep up with.

I like the idea of dice, but I think that would suit gambler more. I like our turret-- I just think it needs to be more than another DoT with one or two situational extra abilities. No one really uses Hypercharge for group damage-- we get more benefit using it for our opener. Promotion hurts us for doing what we're supposed to do. Other than that, there isn't much to our turret. Make it a buffing/debuffing machine and it becomes much more useful.