Dragoon or Monk

Hi everyone,

Been loving this game so far I got a lvl 34sh dragoon which I love I also played black mage and rogue and although I liked the speed of the rogue I just couldn't connect with it.

Now I'm lvling a pugilist to lvl 12 for some cross class skills and I'm having fun with it I see that it has a lot of positioning and such but I don't mind how complicated a class is anyways.

My question would go down such as:

Which of those two is more helpful in end game raids and pvp.

Which End game armor looks better.

And which of these two right now does the highest dps.


I acutally wanted to make a bard but after the changes done to it I got taken aback a lot.

So I will just wait until that's fixed.

Thanks for taking your time and helping me out !!!

If you mean by "Fix bard" you actually mean "remove Wanderer's Minuet" that isn't going to happen most likely.
Anyway.
Out of which job does more DPS? I still think that's MNK...however I think at high level it's really just a preference of which one you like to play more, since they are both melee.

A Wanderer's Minuet complaint thread cleverly disguised as a Dragoon/Monk thread. Kudos.

Dragoon is a little better than Monk right now.

theyre both are equally as screwed by phase changes/invincibility.
flip a coin

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Originally Posted by ErzaScarlet77

theyre both are equally as screwed by phase changes/invincibility.
flip a coin

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Actually MNK isn't nearly as screwed over on phase changes as they were in ARR. Dragon Kick and Meditation/Forbidden Chakra are both designed almost entirely to change your downtime during those phases into damage. Really, they thrive ON phase changes; ask any monk who's run Ravana.

I can't speak for dragoon myself though.

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Originally Posted by Atlaworks

Actually MNK isn't nearly as screwed over on phase changes as they were in ARR. Dragon Kick and Meditation/Forbidden Chakra are both designed almost entirely to change your downtime during those phases into damage. Really, they thrive ON phase changes; ask any monk who's run Ravana.

I can't speak for dragoon myself though.

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Monks got screwed more during phase changes in some cases. GL is now applied at the start of Demolish so its 2 seconds shorter. If a boss goes immune like A4 you're fucked it you used twin strike or true strike last because there's nothing to form shift to and you don't have time for TK. Meaning all you can do is build chakra.. whoop dee doo.

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Originally Posted by Humorless

Monks got screwed more during phase changes in some cases. GL is now applied at the start of Demolish so its 2 seconds shorter. If a boss goes immune like A4 you're fucked it you used twin strike or true strike last because there's nothing to form shift to and you don't have time for TK. Meaning all you can do is build chakra.. whoop dee doo.

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That's why you've gotta plan for those phases and TK.

Easy answer:
DRG is better than MNK right now. Why?
Battle Litany > Mantra
Piercing Debuff > Blunt Debuff.

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Originally Posted by Atlaworks

That's why you've gotta plan for those phases and TK.

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Only that Tornado Kick has a 1 minute CD and by the time ravana disappears again you don't have it ready.
Monks don't thrive on such things, the only job that is mostly unaffected by it would be Ninja.

With that being said DRG brings more to the raid like it was pointed out right before my post.
The DPS isn't even the problem here, our damage is fine it's just that we don't bring anything else to increase raid DPS while we're on par with the other melees which do buff raid dps.

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Originally Posted by Greywolfamakir

Easy answer:
DRG is better than MNK right now. Why?
Battle Litany > Mantra
Piercing Debuff > Blunt Debuff.

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Yeah, I can agree with that. Thanks for elucidating me!

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Originally Posted by AskaRay

If you mean by "Fix bard" you actually mean "remove Wanderer's Minuet" that isn't going to happen most likely.
Anyway.

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Lol this, brilliant XD

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Originally Posted by Atlaworks

Actually MNK isn't nearly as screwed over on phase changes as they were in ARR. Dragon Kick and Meditation/Forbidden Chakra are both designed almost entirely to change your downtime during those phases into damage. Really, they thrive ON phase changes; ask any monk who's run Ravana.

I can't speak for dragoon myself though.

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In dragoon's case, it depends entirely on how smart you are with BotD. You lose something like ~200 DPS if you don't have access to the 4th combo moves and Geirskogul, so you have to plan around the cooldown, Geirskogul's cost, and transitions.

It's a pain in the ass to manage on some fights, but at least I can be a Litany bot when I screw up.

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Originally Posted by Atlaworks

I can't speak for dragoon myself though.

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Dragoons get punished hard for losing BotD. A good Dragoon is often riding a line of about 1-2s "leeway" where they must reapply BotD using their 4th during "dummy" phases. A great Dragoon will know when to hold that Geirskogul and just build buffer on their BotD timer for a mechanic/phase shift. Not that A4 is hard, but knowing for instance approximately WHEN people will get sucked into the tube and knowing not to throw out that Geirskogul until the targets are chosen (so you know you won't be interrupted) is an example. If you just burned a Geirskogul and have 30s+ CD remaining on BotD and somehow get interrupted and fail to reapply BotD, you are in a bad way.

As others have said, DRG brings raid utility in Battle Litany...and Battle Litany. Baaasically Battle Litany. MNK still is good for the INT-down if your group doesn't use a DRK

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Originally Posted by Atreides

Only that Tornado Kick has a 1 minute CD and by the time ravana disappears again you don't have it ready.
Monks don't thrive on such things, the only job that is mostly unaffected by it would be Ninja.

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So you obviously haven't learned to play your new 3.0 monk. No TK isn't up for every jump but a large majority of them. You can also charge FC and form shifts for almost every long jump. Learning every fight allows you to time and predict when phases change and how to be prepared for them. If you cannot use TK effectively before the jumps then you're doing it wrong.

I personally love TK and FC. Yes FC could use some love and QoL improvements, but these are great abilities and people that QQ and whine about it not being worth it are just bad at adapting, overcoming, and benefiting. I really look forward to these abilities in PvP. They will help with very much needed monk burst damage.

And these "Which is better" posts are getting annoying as well. Read the guides and posts of all the classes to see their strong points, weaknesses, and any other info. Experience them to feel the play style, watch and witness them in action, and talk to them in game. Every class has it's pro's and con's and can be utilized in ANY raid group as long as you learn to play your class efficiently. Find that class that feels right, plays right, and that your enjoy playing.

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Originally Posted by Daega

stuff.

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You're quick with jumping conclusions.
Please don't just start judging people because of opinions, we're here to discuss whether a Dragoon or Monk is more useful in a raid environment.
Right now it would obviously be the Dragoon because of his offensive utility, and I still fail to see how Monk profits in ANY way from downtime.

I am well aware of Chakra stacks and Form Shift and make full use of them, there is still no benifit from downtimes, those skills just help us to make the best of it instead of waiting for our stacks to fall off.
I don't think those skills need any change outside of QoL changes like 5 stacks outside of battle.

I was only saying that Ninja is the least affected by it because he only needs to reaply slashing resist (if the Warrior doesn't already do it) and go bonkers.
Dragoons lose their Blood of the Dragon, Monks their GL3.

Thats a minor issue though, Monk DPS is still up there and I have yet to see anyone outparsing me. (Okay Summoner are beasts in A1-2)
I have yet to see one of those amazing dragoons, so far I only had acceptable ones but none came close to what I hear in the forums.

DPS wise (Outside of dummy parses) none are better but if every melee is in a good spot you take the one with the better utility and thats where Monks currently lose.
While Dragonkick is still an amazing ability because of the Int debuff it's nothing that makes the Monk unique anymore because the Drk can do it too.

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Originally Posted by Atreides

..we're here to discuss whether a Dragoon or Monk is more useful in a raid environment.

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Originally Posted by ArtesMan

My question would go down such as:

Which of those two is more helpful in end game raids and pvp.

Raid: Greywolfamakir makes a good point as far as utility.

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Originally Posted by Greywolfamakir

Easy answer:
Battle Litany > Mantra
Piercing Debuff > Blunt Debuff.

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MNK has Int down which is very nice for magical damage. This can also be used by DRK.

PvP: Dragoon has probably had the best burst damage in pvp for a long time now, but there is new pvp coming very soon so "Please look forward to it". With the max level sync'd to 50, Monk has the utility with OIP, silence, mantra, and the special skills.

Which End game armor looks better?

Neither. The Law gear looks horrible IMO. Alex gear is getting better. But there are many many new outfits that work very well for glamour and can make yourself look very unique.
The new AF armor is not out yet besides several trainers or w/e you can see which may be the final say, I don't know this. Either way this is all personal choice and can be looked up on market board or ffxivdb.

And which of these two right now does the highest dps?

Supposedly DRG on dummy's with parse and MNK/NIN slightly behind. But this is not a major factor. Any class can out dps another if they play better than the other. So if you pick DRG and suck at it then it doesn't really matter does it? As a monk I am consistently top dps in almost any group I'm in unless it's aoe. Even then I'm still extremely high with the new skills like Elixir Field and PB Rockbreaker+buffs.

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This was actually the OP question. My point still stand that it doesn't matter which you choose. Pick the one that you enjoy and have fun with. You can make ANY class DRG/MNK or other work fantastically if you play it well.

Hope this brings it back on focus.

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Originally Posted by Daega

Pick the one that you enjoy and have fun with. You can make ANY class DRG/MNK or other work fantastically if you play it well.

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See this is a thing we can agree on.

They do about the same damage output.

Monk is faster with more positionals. Dragoon has more complicated rotations and jumps.

Monk has more defensive utility in a raid (-enemy magic damage, +healing). Dragoon has more offensive utility (+pierce damage, +crit rate).

I don't think the differences are enough that most raid groups or free companies would care. Keep in mind when browsing through the forums that many scenarios are discussed from the perspective of when things are going perfectly, ergo more damage is the only 'useful' utility that can be offered, which is not how things play out in reality where people make mistakes or RNG throws a wrench into things. The benefit of more defensive utility is less obvious, but saving your group from a wipe scenario is very powerful.

Honestly, I would just look at both play styles and decide yourself. They are pretty similar (both are melee, with several positional abilities), but feel different. I myself prefer Dragoon because I like the look of the armor/weapons and the jump abilities.

As of right now, I would also say Dragoon is in a better place. They have slightly higher DPS output, a piercing vulnerability, a team critical chance boost, and right now Monk's Dragon Kick makes Dark Knight's Delirium effect completely useless.

With that being said, both are still in great places, and some of that may very well change in the future. A good Dragoon and a good Monk are going to bring just about the same DPS/utility to the team anyway.

Dragon Kick was invaluable in T13. It was already mentioned in the last live letter that we will have more magic mechanics on the horizon. If your group doesn't have a DRK for Delirium Blade then go with MNK. Battle Litany is great and all for offensive utility but if your group is dead there's no point in having extra crit. Sure once you have content out geared DK/Mantra will be less useful but by then you could have MNK and DRG both leveled and geared and just switch.

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Originally Posted by Ipkonfig

Dragon Kick was invaluable in T13. It was already mentioned in the last live letter that we will have more magic mechanics on the horizon. If your group doesn't have a DRK for Delirium Blade then go with MNK. Battle Litany is great and all for offensive utility but if your group is dead there's no point in having extra crit. Sure once you have content out geared DK/Mantra will be less useful but by then you could have MNK and DRG both leveled and geared and just switch.

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Just like there's no point in having a monk if you're not dying but struggling with dps checks/enrage.

Thanks everyone for taking your time to respond to this post.

I'm in no way a bard hater or plz buff guy.

I started to play at around this patch so all the info on bards is what I got from these forums but by no means does this include my personal opinion I think they look awesome.

Thanks for explaining in detail about the dragoon and monks pros and cons.

In terms of which is better I know those posts are annoying and I have been reading guides and info but since I have no clue about end game content or what is going on I don't really see weakness as such or strengths as such.

Thanks everyone !!!

I say go drg. It's the only dps that wears plate armor and really the only dps class that hits things with a two handed weapon. Jumps are satisfying to use and it has some nifty on demand burst and good group utility. Also it's pretty fun jabbing things with the pokey stick. I leveled as Pld and I found myself with very little to do between Alexander lockouts so I started leveling drg, it's nearly level 55 and I was having a blast with it from start to finish, plus the drg lore gives you some really interesting background info about Ishgard and Estinien if that's your thing.

As a lore junkie and a total Ishgard fanboi, the lore was awesome.

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Originally Posted by Humorless

Just like there's no point in having a monk if you're not dying but struggling with dps checks/enrage.

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While raiding 1 thru 13 with statics I've been in we have not once struggled with DPS, but the magic damage in 13 was real and when we added a MNK to the mix it got so much better. Look at NM Alex Floor 4 which is 100% magic damage, and Perpetual Ray hits really hard already. Savage Floor 4 can only be worse so if you don't have a DRK, bring a MNK.

I personally will be tanking it as DRK so it opens us up for more offensive utility, but there are plenty of groups that are excluding DRKs since the majority of DRKs can't actually use it as a tank.

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Originally Posted by Ipkonfig

While raiding 1 thru 13 with statics I've been in we have not once struggled with DPS, but the magic damage in 13 was real and when we added a MNK to the mix it got so much better. Look at NM Alex Floor 4 which is 100% magic damage, and Perpetual Ray hits really hard already. Savage Floor 4 can only be worse so if you don't have a DRK, bring a MNK.

I personally will be tanking it as DRK so it opens us up for more offensive utility, but there are plenty of groups that are excluding DRKs since the majority of DRKs can't actually use it as a tank.

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Perpetual Ray isn't affected by Dragon Kick, the legs aren't the source of the damage. Savage potentially has more legs which would make it rather pointless. Monks are also fucking terrible at killing adds because you only have positionals. There's plenty of reason to bring DRG/NIN over MNK.

Perpetual Ray doesn't come till the legs are dead, it's the tank buster after the Discoid cast that gains hits every time it's used like Akh Morn. And if it's anything like Akh Morn the savage damage will be nuts by the end of the fight. And I can confirm it is effected by Delirium Blade.

My group doesn't have a MNK currently but I would have no issues taking any of the melee they all have pros and cons, and honestly if you hate your class that much... change it.

Get dragoon to 60 since you already have that at 34 or whatever, and level monk on the side til that hits 60, and play around with each as you go.

If you're in a static though, and they don't have a MNK or a DRK, I'd kind of suggest going MNK only for the INT down. But if they have a MNK or a DRK, then I'd say go DRG for the offensive utility.

I main both. Currently enjoying Drg more. While I love dragon kick, I feel Monks are a bit on short end when compared to my Drg. I have no problem in all 4 floor of alex, but stuff like Bismark I think i prefer to bring a drg. They share accessories so its not hard to switch. So meh I just go with the mood. The tank in my static main's all 3 tanks so its whatever. I hate that we didn't get any extra stacks of GL to make up for TK using all of it and that FC you have to charge manually. I don't care what people say it frikken sucks. I use it of course, but its not as good as people think in practice. I would also like to see that tp restore skill also give single stack of GL just to make it not be useless. Either give us more stacks or make Chakra auto charge SE. MAKE IT HAPPEN!

P.S. Fix Demolish

IMO. both do pretty high dps and can be comparable sometimes. Dragoons can burst dps but monk has sustain DPS imo. MNK is probably a bit harder to play in some situations but its more "rewarding". MNK has more of a "casual" and light armor to them while dragoon gear is probably looks like a skinnier version of tank gear.

With the way the game is, I suggest you just Level all three melees up there and adapt to what your static(if you have one or gonna be in one) wants. Sometimes its good to have Dragon kick if there is to much raid wide Magic dmg going out. if there is no brd or no need for Dragon Kick, run as NIN as Vulnerability can benefit the raid DPS. Or if you see that its beneficial to go DRG cause you have a BRD/MCH than run as that. Otherwise it can simply just so you can go like
"Meh today i feel like playing NIN/MNK/DRG today". All three do pretty high DPS and are pretty fun in their own way. each bring their own utility to the group.

I'm curious about something.

If Battle Litany raises Critical hit rate, doesn't that mean that it raises both critical damage and critical heals? In which case, it is not only an offensive buff, but also a healing buff. (And defensive buff for something like a critical Adloquium that further mitigates damage.)

Is this correct, or does it work differently?

Also, piercing debuff extends to MCH as well, right?

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Originally Posted by Calis

I'm curious about something.

If Battle Litany raises Critical hit rate, doesn't that mean that it raises both critical damage and critical heals? In which case, it is not only an offensive buff, but also a healing buff. (And defensive buff for something like a critical Adloquium that further mitigates damage.)

Is this correct, or does it work differently?

Also, piercing debuff extends to MCH as well, right?

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battle litany only affects critical hit rate and not critical hit damage, unlike the critical stat found on gear.
this means that it does help heals to crit more often, which is especially useful for sch.

and yes, mch currently does piercing damage, so both bard and mch benefit from having a dragoon in party.