As a healer, I am at a vantage point to see how different dps approach their roles. I have to watch them as a part of my job. Watch their hp and watch for things I might can esuna. Being in this position, I can see what buffs they are using and which they are not. I also can compare how fast a dungeon progresses with different dps.
I've noticed some bards not using Wanderer's Minuet at all in an expert dungeons. I've also noticed these bards are not moving at all while shooting. I understand the argument against using Wanderer's Minuet is it restricts movement. From what I understand, it is a damage increase and unlocks abilities that cannot be accessed outside of Wanderer's Minuet.
When paired with these Bards, the dungeons go much slower.
My question is, if they are not going to be moving, why on earth are they not using something that is a damage increase? I feel like I am missing something, please help me understand.
Side Note: I have been paired with some amazing Bards using their full toolkit and seen how fast we can blast through the dungeon.
Bards - Help me understand
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07-16-2015, 01:46 AMSayuriHimeBards - Help me understand
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07-16-2015, 01:52 AMAnzamanEven tho I don't move that much (anymore) as Machinist, the issue is with the cast bar, I just don't like it.Quote:
Originally Posted by SayuriHime
And before somebody starts pointing fingers at me, I did use Gauss Barrel.. But anyways, since I got my another job leveled today to 60, I can just throw my gun to corner and never look at it again. -
07-16-2015, 02:25 AMSayuriHimeOk so for you, the cast bar is a strange feeling. No longer having the instant gratification of your abilities makes the job less fun to play. Thank you for your honesty!Quote:
Originally Posted by Anzaman
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07-16-2015, 02:56 AMm3eansean
Seen this a lot too. DPS is really bad on these bards that refuse to use it "out of principle". It slows everything down and is a detriment to everyone on the team.
I'm quite surprised they don't want to use the full toolkit and output appropriate dps. -
07-16-2015, 02:58 AMi2agnarok
I played BRD briefly on my friend's account with Minuet just to answer this same question I had. Cooldown usage feels extremely awkward with Minuet, so it could be a comfort issue. I didn't care enough to REALLY dig into it, I was just experimenting a little.
However, I know what you're talking about. Expert dungeons every time I get in with a BRD that doesn't use Minuet at all is extremely, painfully slow. And then the tank still proceeds to do huge pulls when the BRDs aren't breaking 400 DPS and it drives me crazy. -_- -
07-16-2015, 03:16 AMRiceisNice
BRD's gameplay is extremely awkward with WM in the sense is that it has a very fragmented flow to it. Havin an oGCD that can reset its cooldown can happen at the most inopportune times and ends up delaying your overall skill cooldowns. And straighter shot's proc reaction is even worse than firestarter...
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07-16-2015, 03:23 AMRikkustrifeWhile I don't agree with not using it and making things for others, it is not out of principle, it's because it feels like they put wanderer's minuet and never considered how it would affect the rest of the bard 's abilities.Quote:
Originally Posted by m3eansean
And if a bard is only doing 400 dps, it is not because they are not using wanderer's minuet -
07-16-2015, 03:50 AMRanenThis ^.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anzaman
With the cast bar it feels awfully clunky and out of place. It definitely takes some getting used to but still there's some issues that should be fixed. Honestly, I can't tell whether using WM gets things done faster or not. On paper there's a DPS increase with it on, but to me it still feels slow. I really wish they'd get rid of the whole cast bar BS, but it's here to stay so I might as well get used to. Or find another DPS class to main...which is what I'm looking for atm.
I still think it was lazy of SE to slap on the same playstyle they envisioned for machinist onto bard...because that's what it feels like they did without working out the kinks of it.. but what do I know... -
07-16-2015, 06:12 AMLLamaPieAs a bard that does utilize it I can explain to you why people don't. It quite literally breaks the class. Bard was not designed around cast times it was designed around instant casts with weaving oGCDs. They put the song in without fully adjusting the way the class is meant to be played. So even though I "mastered" it the way it is now, it feels incredibly clunky and the exact opposite of smooth. Get what I'm saying? Just think of it as you're a righty and you're playing baseball and they tell you you need to bat left handed now. It feels that awkward.Quote:
Originally Posted by m3eansean
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07-16-2015, 06:22 AMemmgee
Although WM is quite clunky to use, it is a large dps increase on AOE packs in dungeons, so any bard not using it in there is just bad or refuses to adapt to the 3.0 playstyle.
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07-16-2015, 06:23 AMi2agnarokQuote:
Originally Posted by Ranen
I think those two sums it up rather neatly. There's also "fun factor," I suppose. Someone in another thread mentioned that he enjoyed "running around like a jackass because [he] could." All the complaining about lost mobility, I just write off personally because I don't think its relevant, but I think the oGCD issue doesn't fit in with the identity of the class. Like these guys said, it feels like they just slapped the MCH ideas onto BRD. I don't think the CONCEPT of the song (castbar, turret) is bad, but because the class is very dependent on oGCDs and procs, that's what causes the clunkiness and that hurts it a bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by LLamaPie
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07-16-2015, 06:28 AMAiselia
According to certain other DPS classes here, we're support, not DPS, and our DPS doesn't matter and nobody's counting on us to do the damage, so if we don't like it, we can just turn it off.
I suppose you could also ask them why they tell us that. -
07-16-2015, 06:34 AMRiceisNiceHonestly I feel like this as well. On paper the idea of having a cast bar to become a stationary dps is fine. Heck, that was the selling point for me when they had shown previews for machinist that they could remain stationary to charge an attack or something. But they ended up giving bard a skill that functions exactly the same and even showcased it in the new job action trailer (whereas they did not showcase gauss barrel for machinist)Quote:
Originally Posted by Ranen
The end result is that we have two jobs that play nearly identical, but only one was designed with it in mind.
Edit: And the more I think of it, the more I wonder why MCH gets instant cast on procs. If the idea was that they wanted them to stand still for damage, why is a good chunk of their output still from instant casts? I would've settled with clean and slug shot functioning like empyreal arrow while under GB. -
07-16-2015, 07:49 AMSayuriHime
So as I understand what some of you are saying, people are refusing to use Wanderer's out of principle... Out of annoyance and the class feeling clunky? As I understand, Wanderer's is part of the Bard tool kit right now. If it is not satisfying to your play style, why not play something else? Isn't it depressing to play the class if it feels broken to you? Why do you persist? I am not trying to be accusatory, I'm only trying to understand.
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07-16-2015, 08:06 AMCinicus
Trash pulls are one thing in regards to a BRD having to move whereas a primal ex or other EG style boss is where I hear the most complaints. It feels like the devs just wanted to force the job to not be so mobile instead of truly giving us some new "stance" to improve our dps.
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07-16-2015, 08:14 AMRiceisNiceWhich is why I'm a MCH. The sad bottom line is that both classes play or more less the same because of WM and GB, only MCH was built around working with GB so its a bit more natural with the flow. It's not like comparing BLM to SMN, or the three melees.Quote:
Originally Posted by SayuriHime
It doesn't stop there though since the process of leveling a MCH is imo (as a MCH main), incredibly tedious if its not your first 60. -
07-16-2015, 03:59 PMruskie
Well I adapted to WM but as others have said it's clunky as hell. But In most fights I keep pace with the others(as in when mechanics are involved) - the saving grace are our various spikes we have(barraged empy arrow with all buffs on is very nice).
But yeah WM just being tacked on to bard isn't really a well thought out idea. -
07-16-2015, 09:53 PMPopeHatNo, it sounds like you're trying to make a statement against the bards that refuse to use minuet out of principle. I use minuet and stance weave and have managed to put up solid DPS, but I hate the job. I have never enjoyed BLM, and I've never enjoyed SMN. The people I see that hate the new buff the most are the people that have dedicated most of their playtime to mastering bard, a lot of those people are now disillusioned and some are moving to other classes. The end effect is that you're going to have less bards playing the game and the ones that do are going to be newer to the class.Quote:
Originally Posted by SayuriHime
So enjoy your dungeon runs with bottom tier bards without minuet on, I'll be the ninja in your party jumping around the monsters like a fool because I can. -
07-16-2015, 10:42 PMFyceThat only applies to people with BRD main and only BRD. If you were playing any other ranged job with cast times, then playing BRD with WM would be fine since you would already be familiar with cast times.Quote:
Originally Posted by PopeHat
I played a lot of WHM in 2.x and switched to SMN now, so when I tried a lv60 BRD on my gf's account just to test it, I was completly fine with it. She even told me "you don't even play BRD and you're already better than me with WM...".
Well, yeah. I'm used to cast times so WM isn't a big deal for me.
I guess the issue lies in people's habits. If WM was a Lv10 skill, there wouldn't be any problem with it. But since it's a new skill, it obviously impact long term BRD the most.
On the other hand, people playing BRD as an alt job might be completly fine with it, and even perform better than 2.x main BRD because of that reason.
Since the change is so big, speaking of "mastering BRD" doesn't make any sense now, because everyone is on the same foot right now. It's just a question of "can you/do you want to change your habits or not ?". -
07-16-2015, 11:18 PMRiceisNiceThe other end of the spectrum is that full-time bard mains are the ones that can feel how fragmented bard's gameplay is with WM. It's not cast times itself the problem, its the problem that comes from having a cast time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fyce
Then you have people who leveled up machinist first then level up bard and immediately notice that the two more-or-less play identically the same because of WM/GB, so we don't even have class diversity when it comes to gameplay for ranged physical (think BLM/SMN, melees, or healers in how they approach with their role), except only one of the two classes was built from the ground up with cast times in mind and doesn't feel as awkward. -
07-17-2015, 12:25 AMUlthimar
WM is good for AOE trash pulls. Thats about it..... Optimal 2.x rotation beats WM DPS in boss fights and trials.
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07-17-2015, 12:31 AMFyceIs this a mere subjective opinion or a statement without any kind of proof?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulthimar
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07-17-2015, 12:32 AMRiceisNiceNot the case anymore. WM is hands down more damage given that you can stand still for itQuote:
Originally Posted by Ulthimar
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07-17-2015, 12:34 AMUlthimarIF you can stand still, exactly my point. In real scenarios when mechanics are involved, WM will not provide much, if any DPS increase due to interrupted casts, and not being able to use OGCD's as effectively.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
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07-17-2015, 12:35 AMRiceisNiceThere's very little fight that disallows you from standing still though... Only one I can name is Ravana during seeing X and the orbsQuote:
Originally Posted by Ulthimar
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07-17-2015, 12:38 AMRiceisNice
How do I edit on phone.... The oGCD thing isn't a huge dps loss either, it's a play style qol thing that was handled very poorly, esp in consideration that mch was given the exact same skill and pigeon holed the two classes to playing the same
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07-17-2015, 12:55 AMSendohJinas a SCH main, part time BLM, part time SMN, cast bar on BRD is disgusting.Quote:
Originally Posted by SayuriHime
got it to 53 and it became completely unplayable to me. i like burgers and i like milk shakes, i don't want my burger put into a blender and than told i'm suppose to like drinking it with a straw. -
07-17-2015, 12:56 AMUlthimar
The animations for Machinist skills are much friendlier for weaving OGCD's than bard. Both jobs gain quite a bit of DPS from optimal OGCD use. The only way any Bard or Machinist can know what works best for them is to review parses from entire Dungeon run's or trials and not just an individual fight or initial burst. The amount of overall DPS put out over the course of a 30 min dungeon run is more accurate on what playstyle works best. As for QoL or playstyle preference, personally adding cast times to bard and machinist doesnt bother me, i play BRD, SMN, BLM, Machinist, and have all to 60. I expected it TBH as they want everyone to suffer from mechanics, but how they implemented it without considering how it would affect the other existing skills is bothersome.
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07-17-2015, 02:46 AMReinhaYou are a healer, so I'll try to make you understand by relating this to a healer's toolkit. Let's flip it around:Quote:
Originally Posted by SayuriHime
I'm not trying to argue whether it's right or wrong for a healer to refuse to use their dps skills in safe moments. But all of your points can be used to argue for healers dps'ing. It's a very simple thing: some people are comfortable with it and some people are not. SayuriHime, I hope this clarifies it for you. These players might have the skill for it or they might not, but the most important part about this game is having fun. In dungeons it's not a big deal if bards use WM or not, because as long as the group doesn't meet boss berserk or dungeon time limit they are doing enough damage. People who use random matchmaking tools, please be kind to your fellow player and don't push your standards down their throat. That's what statics and party finder are for.Quote:
Originally Posted by SayuriHime
Honestly that kind of snarkiness is uncalled for. I could reply "Ok so for you, the going a bit slower in a dungeon is a strange feeling. No longer having the instant gratification of seeing the mobs melt makes the dungeon less fun to play. Thank you for your honesty!" If you like being obnoxious and expect perfection from everyone, go play with premades.Quote:
Originally Posted by SayuriHime
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07-17-2015, 02:53 AMRoshidon1
There is no excuse for a bard to not be using WM in dungeons. Even before the patch it was a dps increase (albeit smaller) but after the buff it is a clear loss to not be using WM under reasonably stable conditions. There is some "clunkiness" to the bard right now, with the problem of multiple ogcds and bloodletter popping at the same time but it isn't a good enough reason to not be in WM.
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07-17-2015, 05:08 AMpinder2009These are bad BRDs. They are the equivalent of the DRGs that don't use heavy thrust, a NIN that doesn't use mudras, etc. If they don't want to use WM that's their call but they have to realize they are not using their job to its fullest potential.Quote:
Originally Posted by SayuriHime
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07-17-2015, 07:05 AMCroisciento
My bard is only lvl 55 but I've played a lot on my friend's account which has a lvl 60. I didn't want to waste my time leveling it up. Now lvling it up on my acc...
At first it feels terribly clunky as you can only use one offgcd ability. I was used to spam bloodletter manually everytime after using a skill, and now I really have to pay attention to them because I can't use a proc after empyreal arrow or I will loose an extra skill. This song felt fluid when fighting against bosses, since you have to dodge while outputting maximum damage.
Although I wont say some aspect still feel clunky at 60 (like bloodletter being unusable because you have to use either emp arrow or other cds) I kinda got used to it. If people don't like the change Bard has taken then they should just pick another job instead of wasting everyone's time. -
07-17-2015, 08:03 AMSayuriHimeI want to apologize if I came across snarky, I certainly didn't mean too. I was expressing understand for the person's position.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reinha
I want to add that I am not advocating for Wanderer's Minuet being a good addition the Bards tool kit. I am saying that right now, it is a reality for the class until SE decides to change it. -
07-17-2015, 11:29 AMTemjiuI've been running allot of instances this week catching my DRG up with my WAR. I was in a Main Scenario instance when i quietly lamented to lack of bards swiftsong. What shocked me was i looked back over the week, and i can't honestly remember seeing any bards in the higher level instances I ran.Quote:
Originally Posted by SayuriHime
Now, with the amount of bards in the forums saying they're playing, I know that there are people out there playing them...but im so used to seeing bards in the instances I run. I see quite a few less now...which to me isn't suprising. In all honesty, even with the damage buffs, i simply lost my desire to play them when the cast bars were introduced. my bard hit 53, and stopped. my WAR sped past her, and now my DRG is as well.
Im not a fan of ranged classes, and cast bars even less. It was suprising to me that when i started playing FFXIV, my main became a ranged class. but in retrospect, the reason is clear...it's the first ranged class I've played that felt allot like my favored melee classes. Well...it did. futures portending towards watching cast bars made me feel far too much like my fledgling BLM, which has barely crept into her 20's. She'll probably stay there, and there's little chance that my beloved Bard will make it past her mid 50's. perhaps Ill solo her up to 60 just so she'll be there...I dont' have to use the casts to solo things i suppose. who knows. But yes...I think that many people are dissolusioned with the Bard now, and it seems to me at least that it shows in the group content I've been playing (Random dungeons for the most part). -
07-17-2015, 12:37 PMClarkamiteBlack "standing still and using Enochian to blow shit up with really long cast times just fine" Mage says hi.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulthimar
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07-17-2015, 02:01 PMRanenIt's possible that there's no other class that they enjoy. In my case I just got Ninja to 60, and while I like that class the mudra lag is a complete loss of dps for me and therefore renders it unplayable, and there goes the only melee class I enjoy.Quote:
Originally Posted by SayuriHime
I tend to prefer being ranged anyway..and well the only ranged are all casters...and I dislike those...so I'm pretty much stuck with bard or MCH (and not a fan). I'm still gonna try SMN and see how that goes, but until then I'm stuck with the new Bard....yayyy.
Lol I'd love to find out why they say that, cause clearly they don't understand how frustrating it is to be lvl 60 and only able to use 1 ability from the 50-60 range outside of WM. We might as well just remain lvl 50 and be done with it. xDQuote:
Originally Posted by Aiselia
Except that BLMs/SMN/Healers all chose that class knowing what they were getting into..and that is cast times. Bards were advertised as a class with mobility and now it's pretty much taken away. And saying we don't have to use it..well see above point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarkamite
Anyway this isn't really a thread for that...but meh. It's here to stay and slowly but surely I'll get used to it and those that are intent on playing the class will have to do the same. Sad thing is being out of WM isn't an option if we want to progress in the game, be it the EX primals, and even savage alex..I just hope SE finds some way to work out the kinks. -
07-20-2015, 02:12 AMAFinchTHIS. OH MY GOD THIS. I agree with just about every complaint about WM, but this is the fundamentals of the problem on the money. People say "oh BLMs don't need to move, why do you?" Well WM is like giving BLM a powerful set of mobility skills. It just doesn't work. I truly hope someone at SE reads this. I know it will probably never be fixed, but it really ought to be.Quote:
Originally Posted by LLamaPie
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07-20-2015, 10:31 AMAleph
I'm very thankful that people have continued to voice their concern with this issue. I am/was a career bard but am struggling to enjoy any endgame content while using it, despite my numbers being pretty good. I had since given up and switched to MCH (has a very similar problem with GB but does feel less clunky in its design compared to WM).
Also thank you to OP for hosting a place for this continued discussion without immediately dismissing our complaints and being very civil and genuinely curious to our plight. -
07-20-2015, 09:11 PMAnnietheCat
To be quite honest, I love the damage I can do with WM. But I dislike the cast bar and the standing still. It makes the job just feel intensely rigid. During 2.x I managed to max three jobs, and still went back to brd because it was the only play style I enjoyed. And with a Drg in my party, I had no complaints about my numbers. Archer/bard has been my main since I first started, and I even tried other classes when the support/dps hybrid factor came into play. Even though I have never liked the support aspect of the job, I still loved the play style and so I decided to tank up(lol) and deal with it. With this, there is no tanking up for me. I just legitimately don't enjoy it at this point. I've hung up my bow and started focusing crafting because of the lack of enjoyment.