Dark Knight in all slaying accessories... please no..

A recent encounter has me a bit worried that Dark Knights will start doing this. The players HP was not far above 12000, causing severe stress on healers. So is this an upset DRK wanting magic damage and physical?

Because Warriors doing the same is okay?

And yes it is if you have the skill for it.

I've also watched a DRK tank A1 without Grit in all Slaying accessories with some excellent CD management. Some folks can pull it off.

Also I'm sure the same goes for all VIT DRK's. Too much HP to try to manage during living dead =\

http://i.imgur.com/EAMBaYh.jpg

It's not just DRK it happens on quite a few tanks. To me its up to the healer not the tank.

If the healer says it's a no go then its a no go.

We had a DRK doing this last night on A4 and he was getting face smashed and our healers got tapped out before the second leg was down. Now you could say it's bad healers but it seemed like bad cd usage on the drk imo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OPneedNerfs

http://i.imgur.com/EAMBaYh.jpg

---

I lol'd funny

This is an idiotic thread

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OPneedNerfs

http://i.imgur.com/EAMBaYh.jpg

---

This sums up pretty much the forums atm

Well, the basic idea is that if you have enough HP to take the big hits (tank busters, for example), then there's no reason to stack VIT. Extra VIT will just net you extra health, which means the healers have to heal you for more to keep you topped off.

It also is bad for Living Dead, where you need to be healed for 100% of your HP (the more HP, the harder the healing check). Then you also get to abilities like Souleater, which heal you based on the damage you do. This means that stacking some STR accessories will allow for better self healing.

Then of course, the most obvious reasons would be for the extra DPS and keeping aggro. So in my opinion, if you can take the hits, there's no need to keep stacking VIT. Just wasted points honestly.

Vitality over what you need for a buster allows for more party mistakes. This is not exclusively -your- mistakes, or the healers, but the dps.

Dps messes up. Healer goes to heal them--you wernt topped off, boss hits you again--now lower than what you would like to be. A healer has to decide who to heal, and might let the dps to die because you are in danger, or who knows the reason.

Keep in mind im not advocating stacking vitality, but that vitality beyond the 'amount needed to survive' only works well in statics where people seldom 'mess up'. So determine vitality based off your group performance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Faytte

Vitality over what you need for a buster allows for more party mistakes. This is not exclusively -your- mistakes, or the healers, but the dps.

---

Well, no one is going to have "Just enough" to survive a tank buster with 1 HP or so where they would die to the next auto attack obviously. The point is after the tank buster, you have enough HP to survive long enough for the healer to heal you. Anything more than that is wasted stat allocation.

Currently the biggest tank busters do what, 7k damage? (not counting a not-shared Blinding Blade because that SHOULD be shared). So 13k HP should be more than enough. Maybe more if A4 tank buster did more than that, but I don't remember as I managed to MT that as DRK with around 14.5k HP when I got my kill and item and haven't been back there since.

Good CD management and self heals (while a lot of people neglect to count them while all tanks have them) lowers that HP threshold even more.

15k pld hp is more than enough for A4. It's a matter of when to stoneskin yourself to give the illusion of having 1 or 2 extra fending accessories. That'll give you something to ponder upon.

as a pld i always have and always will stack vit. the more hp you have as a pld the better your personal stoneskin/divine veil/spirits within works so thats what i feel i need and has worked wonders for everything before 3.0 and still currently works fine. granted i used 110 pentamelded for last leg of 2.xx with fending str melded but str no longer affects block/parry % so im 100% vit now

Cool down management and knowing how to play the job and tank matters more than accessories. If the person doesn't know the job then vit would be more effective but if the person understands the job and cool down rotation they will be able to go full str with no issue.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nomad-phx

as a pld i always have and always will stack vit. the more hp you have as a pld the better your personal stoneskin/divine veil/spirits within works so thats what i feel i need and has worked wonders for everything before 3.0 and still currently works fine. granted i used 110 pentamelded for last leg of 2.xx with fending str melded but str no longer affects block/parry % so im 100% vit now

---

Spirits Within is a 300 potency attack at 100% HP, doesn't matter if you have 100 HP or 22,500, it will ONLY do 300 potency. The damage will vary based on your *drum roll*.... STR!!

Other than that, it's personal preference. I personally CHOOSE the path of pushing more DPS when applicable over sitting with over 22k HP where I never drop below 50% due to meager damage and excessive overhealing.

How did it cause stress to the healers? Damage in end game fights is predictable. If you have 20k and brought down to 10k, vs having 17k and brought down to 7k, you've lost the same amount of HP and need to be healed for the same amount of HP. All you're doing is leaving DPS on the floor.

Having said that, if you're DYING from mechanics then you need more VIT right side, obviously.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OPneedNerfs

http://i.imgur.com/EAMBaYh.jpg

---

Is it bad that this is literally what I imagine how some player's I've met are, in more situations that this? (facial expressions, insanity and everything)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OPneedNerfs

http://i.imgur.com/EAMBaYh.jpg

---

Omg I want more of this lmfao

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Faytte

Vitality over what you need for a buster allows for more party mistakes. This is not exclusively -your- mistakes, or the healers, but the dps.

Dps messes up. Healer goes to heal them--you wernt topped off, boss hits you again--now lower than what you would like to be. A healer has to decide who to heal, and might let the dps to die because you are in danger, or who knows the reason.

Keep in mind im not advocating stacking vitality, but that vitality beyond the 'amount needed to survive' only works well in statics where people seldom 'mess up'. So determine vitality based off your group performance.

---

^this. Man it's nice to have a buffer when healing--especially with DRKs, as-is they aren't like PLD, they get bursted down crazily fast. And they aren't like WAR, they don't quite bounce back so well/don't have the HP buffer naturally. When crap hits the fan and the healers are trying to keep everyone up and I watch you dip down to ~200 HP before the healer catches you, I'm just really greatful for those Fending pieces. On the other hand if we actually had a DPS check or you overgeared the content considerably, then DPS is boss.

But yes, tank CD usage is super important, and if you're not offering the healer a Fending-buffer through out the fight, you really better be on top of them all of the time or thank the healer for the carry. As a PLD I have natural mitigation from my shield and enough buffs to cycle them through out a run while still buffing heavily for tank busters, but I've still been down to a couple hundred HP when party mishaps happen. I have 2 sets of accessories, Fending for uncertainties and DPS for overgeared content or DPS checks--not for content where you and/or the healer is new or min ilvl.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OPneedNerfs

http://i.imgur.com/EAMBaYh.jpg

---

This... so much this. I cant describe how this picture made my day and sums up the situation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Faytte

Vitality over what you need for a buster allows for more party mistakes. This is not exclusively -your- mistakes, or the healers, but the dps.

Dps messes up. Healer goes to heal them--you wernt topped off, boss hits you again--now lower than what you would like to be. A healer has to decide who to heal, and might let the dps to die because you are in danger, or who knows the reason.

Keep in mind im not advocating stacking vitality, but that vitality beyond the 'amount needed to survive' only works well in statics where people seldom 'mess up'. So determine vitality based off your group performance.

---

I think thats the part that evades them is that its a team effort, not just an imaginary tanking dps check that will wipe the raid if they dont break 400 dps.

Actually had a STR DRK yesterday trying to AoE tank in Floor 2 that was vividly pissed that I couldnt repeatedly lustrate him fast enough to keep him alive, and that failing to do so ment I was a poor healer.... thats the general attitude.

Why are people taking this as "either.. or"?

No one is advocating having so much STR at the cost of enough survivability. People talk as if the "enough to survive tank buster" is literally "tank buster + 1hp". Which is ridiculous.

You can have enough HP to survive tank busters and still have enough STR to do decent DPS. As a 14.5k HP DRK (2 slaying accessories which is a middle I'm comfortable with when playing with healers I don't know), I can solo soak blinding blade popping a CD with some extra 3k~7k HP based on RNG (lolparry). Now I'm not saying solo soak Blinding Blade because you can. I'm saying there is no content currently that forces you to have more than 14k HP.

Fluff damage doesn't warrant gearing for vitality to give your healer a break where they cast a heal all of 1 GCD earlier. Also STR speccing makes self heals (Clemency, Equilibrium, IB, SE... etc) becomes more valuable. Not having that 1.4k HP isn't what's gonna break your healer from prioritizing you over the DPS because of 1 random mistake happening. Now if you AND the DPS make mistakes at the same time, that's a whole different story.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OPneedNerfs

http://i.imgur.com/EAMBaYh.jpg

---

https://mlpforums.com/uploads/post_i...egnyusng7e.gif
DPS, DPS, DPS, DPS, DPS, DPS, DPS, DPS, DPS, DPS

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OPneedNerfs

http://i.imgur.com/EAMBaYh.jpg

---

I wish this image never existed because people take it literally. It's meant to be "wow tanks that don't use their CDs and just focus on DPS are bad!", which is true. But people believe it means "tanks that focus on DPS at all are bad!" which isn't the case. You are hitting the boss, therefore a part of your role is to DPS.

Yeah, it definitely leads to an attitude amoung players that tanks should never attempt to output good numbers, which is just silly. As a tank, damage output shouldn't be your top priority, but it should definitely be a priority.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

I wish this image never existed because people take it literally. It's meant to be "wow tanks that don't use their CDs and just focus on DPS are bad!", which is true. But people believe it means "tanks that focus on DPS at all are bad!" which isn't the case. You are hitting the boss, therefore a part of your role is to DPS.

---

I think, personally, that its completely ok to work on your dps amid being a tank... however the general rule is "Im going to do all strength right because Im a tank and need to dps, avoidance stats are terrible, and if you cant heal me through it you're bad" when it comes to most pug tanks encountered.

I think theres always a way to do all of the above with teamwork, just a matter of that too all too often goes by the wayside for "Rawr numbers" etc

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Viralblack

I think, personally, that its completely ok to work on your dps amid being a tank... however the general rule is "Im going to do all strength right because Im a tank and need to dps, avoidance stats are terrible, and if you cant heal me through it you're bad" when it comes to most pug tanks encountered.

I think theres always a way to do all of the above with teamwork, just a matter of that too all too often goes by the wayside for "Rawr numbers" etc

---

I've always surprised healers with being DRK, I don't take that much damage when I manage my cooldowns. Many go "Wow, a DRK thats not all in strength" is becoming common now.

THEN AGAIN I LOVE TO DPS WITH FULL STRENGTH MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
https://mlpforums.com/uploads/post_i...egnyusng7e.gif

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OPneedNerfs

http://i.imgur.com/EAMBaYh.jpg

---

I like how this comic is spreading around it started on reddit. XD

The whole reason I hate this wearing str accessory meta is because its breeding bad habits in duty finder. Watching tanks die to the hand when soaking damage, either being in dps stance or not having enough hp or getting wrecked by the adds in alex 1. While Noting their extremely low hp and then blaming the healers. I keep wondering what is going on? Why is this happening? Now I just want square to kill this meta and bury it into the ground its ruining DF.

Did it really start on reddit? We all know that everything starts on 4chan.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rawker

Did it really start on reddit? We all know that everything starts on 4chan.

---

True that it does seem like a 4chan comic and I do have to admit it pretty much screams their humor. Which I do enjoy at times.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AnimaS

Dark Knight in all slaying accessories... but doesn't know how to manage cool downs properly please no...

---

Fixed it for ya.

Nothing wrong with having all str as long as you are above 13.5k hp which I feel is the minimum to take on A4 without putting too much stress on healers. While I am also guilty of doing this I do have an alternate gear set with only vit gear if I feel the healers are having troubles. I always runs str to test them and myself.

Less hp = less room for error = better tanking skills/awarness = better player.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lawson_Grey

How did it cause stress to the healers? Damage in end game fights is predictable.

---

DF DPS isn't.

Bottom line, gear for stat efficiency in a static, gear for fault tolerance in DF.

Had issues with a warrior yesterday at A4 he was tanking on a dps stance and with strg accessories he was the MT and I was OT, he just died with 2 or 3 hits I didn't say anything but he realized that he was doing pretty bad and he changed his stance and armor, no issues after that but its becoming a trend with many warriors. I saw a lot of that yesterday when I was farming the Alexander raid with the duty finder.

^ this is the main reason I'm waiting more than 1 min now for a queue in alexander. DPS picking tank jobs who don't know how to tank thinking they's dps. This is only apparent with drk and war.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Faytte

Vitality over what you need for a buster allows for more party mistakes. This is not exclusively -your- mistakes, or the healers, but the dps.

Dps messes up. Healer goes to heal them--you wernt topped off, boss hits you again--now lower than what you would like to be. A healer has to decide who to heal, and might let the dps to die because you are in danger, or who knows the reason.

Keep in mind im not advocating stacking vitality, but that vitality beyond the 'amount needed to survive' only works well in statics where people seldom 'mess up'. So determine vitality based off your group performance.

---

This.

The "survive the biggest spike damage" argument only applies to statics. It's essentially a form of Min/Maxing that can only be accomplished by a group that both knows what they're doing and can communicate.

For Duty Finder, it's not an intelligent way to gear at all. Your DPS ARE going to make mistakes. They are going to need to be healed... which means less attention from the healers. So you need the HP buffer to account for all the mistakes that are definitely going to be made.

I have both STR and VIT acc. I use STR for dungeons and and VIT for Alexander, with maybe 1 or 2 STR mixed in if the healers are good and DPS don't suck.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zfz

Bottom line, gear for stat efficiency in a static, gear for fault tolerance in DF.

---

This, so very much.

As a healer I prefer my tanks to have VIT accessories right now, especially PUG tanks. It allows me to dps and afford to comfortably heal anyone else that might mess up vs having to deal with a tank that almost hits the floor every 10 seconds in a trash pull. Warriors in STR accessories tanking in deliverance are the worst to try and heal

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Meow9000

As a healer I prefer my tanks to have VIT accessories right now, especially PUG tanks. It allows me to dps and afford to comfortably heal anyone else that might mess up vs having to deal with a tank that almost hits the floor every 10 seconds in a trash pull. Warriors in STR accessories tanking in deliverance are the worst to try and heal

---

I would argue that a healer trying to dps while healing makes a lot less sense then a tank sacrificing some excess hp to improve their damage, especially when you consider moves like inner beasts where more damage equals more mitigation, or Living Dead where having more hp can be a hinderance if the healer can't heal you to full quickly.

I didn't really feel the negative side effect of tanks using dps accessories until I healed in Fractal last night as an AST (I think the tank was DRK). Was healing him on the third phase of mobs, and at this point I focused more on healing than stance dancing because his health was dropping so fast, but I just thought the mobs hit a ton. Then I tried to heal another member who was at half health, and before you know it, the tank went from full health to nadda. We wiped and I was like wtf, one second of healing someone else and his health just, disappeared. Then he admitted that he was wearing all red accessories, and that's when I knew, that I hate this so much. At the last boss, again, he just took two shots from the boss and died. Luckily we didn't wipe since I rezzed him immediately and we pulled through till the end, but omg with more people doing this, I don't think I want to heal anymore. It's just a lot more stress than it needs to be and the some of the tanks just don't care.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ossington

I would argue that a healer trying to dps while healing makes a lot less sense then a tank sacrificing some excess hp to improve their damage, especially when you consider moves like inner beasts where more damage equals more mitigation, or Living Dead where having more hp can be a hinderance if the healer can't heal you to full quickly.

---

The problem I think is most tanks are getting a lot of really bad advice and don't understand how to apply it. Tanks right now seem to have an obsession with dps. The person you quoted was talking about wars tanking in deliverance. In other threads on this forum you have tanks saying to turn off their tanking stances in DF for more dps and if the healer can't deal with it they're bad healers. An extra 100 hp on inner beast isn't doing anything at all. When tanks are so obsessed with dps they won't put their tanking stances on, then something is just wrong. That's like a healer refusing to turn off cleric stance. I do think the wrong message is being sent to new tanks because there are a lot of very very very bad tanks tanking expansion content.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yorumi

The problem I think is most tanks are getting a lot of really bad advice and don't understand how to apply it. Tanks right now seem to have an obsession with dps. The person you quoted was talking about wars tanking in deliverance. In other threads on this forum you have tanks saying to turn off their tanking stances in DF for more dps and if the healer can't deal with it they're bad healers. An extra 100 hp on inner beast isn't doing anything at all. When tanks are so obsessed with dps they won't put their tanking stances on, then something is just wrong. That's like a healer refusing to turn off cleric stance. I do think the wrong message is being sent to new tanks because there are a lot of very very very bad tanks tanking expansion content.

---

Agreed the problem is you have tanks who know what they are doing having one conversation and a tank who just got into the game and doesn't have the same experience or knowledge just goes "Oh that's what end game tanks do I should do that! I read it on the internet so it must be true!" and then proceeds to not have the right gear due to their stage of gearing jump right into DPS accessories while not being able to juggle their cooldowns to a decent standard, and then gets carried through 24-man content because you only need one semi-competent tank to drag the whole group through due to the 6 healers, and they don't even have to worry about getting kicked from DF because I see on a daily basis they will pull all the way up to the first wall and then tank till they drop and as soon as they do they GG and quit not to mention finding a replacement tank is so bad I then get forced to jumping out switching and jumping back in just so the other two players can get their exp even if I can't.