Leveling a Dragoon after Heavensward - Bye bye Immerson! (MASSIVE SPOILERS INSIDE)

Hold on!

If you haven't completed Heavensward and care about the story, turn back now! Otherwise, continue to (yet another) sigh/complain/suggestion thread.



Well, I've been having loads of fun in Heavensward! After getting my weekly from Alex, I decided to go ahead and level a few more classes - to be specific Miner, Fisher, Lancer (Dragoon), Astrologian, Marauder.

Well, after I reached lvl 30 as a Lancer and did my initial job quest, I felt hurt. So hurt.

Estinien is alive and well and the game behaves as if I've never met him or as if indeed he hasn't turned into a HUGE DRAGON. Although I understand that (obviously!) this is an MMORPG and it's impossible to account for every player action and/or in what order the game will be played, Square-Enix has been giving Final Fantasy XIV so much attention to detail that I didn't believe that this could happen.

This didn't kill it for me, I'm still going to keep pushing forward and enjoy the job along with this story portion. It's just that it feels disconnected which is a bit of a shame!

It happened before 3.0, even if you did it afterwards. Think of it as playing a memory.

If you are doing the Dragoon quests now, you are essentially having a "flashback" of what you did before the events of Heavensward. This is true for all the job quests, like the Culinarian quest which has Nanamo in it, I believe.

Hah! I was genuinly curious how they handled this when I saw the end of the 3.0 story. Funny thing is, I'm sure the same people who debated locking jobs behind Ishgard for "Lore Reasons" will likely rationalize this as being "Two different time periods" and say that the events of the cutscenes of DRG 2.0 took place before the events of 3.0. Lul.

Thanks for the information! :) I was honestly wondering while going through the story if Mr.Azure's armor would be red, and then I got to the end and was like, "I HAVE SO MANY QUESTIONS..."


Edit: Hot ****, see? They've already started with their flimsy excuse. Gotta love that lore narrative only being important when it applies to what you care about o/

The events of 2.0 are counted as past events by 3.0. That includes all job quests and sidequests as well as main story quests.

Therefore, meeting Estinien in DRG job quests are actually believable. It's like you just went back in time from 3.0 back to 2.0.

crazy stuff huh?

if miner beware the blue puddings :

http://i61.tinypic.com/14xm8te.png

I actually was curious about this too haha

Unfortunately, there’s not much they can do to avoid things like this. The original Dragoon story started in A Realm Reborn, way before the events leading up to the Heavensward story. It would be one hell of a task for the FFXIV to have the job quests evolve, based on the progress you’ve made in the Main Story Quests.

In this case, they would have to come up with an entirely road for players to follow, when they would reach that part of the Main Story Quest. Imagine what they would have to do if you’ve done the dragoon up the “Climax” of the A Realm Reborn Class Quest Line, but suddenly decide to put class quests on hold and walk through the Main Story Quest with another class.

That would make it extremely weird. (^_^; )
So, when going through the class quests, we would just have to watch it with the mindset that we’re watching something that happened in the past. It’s just another trick we as Warriors of Light can do with our abilities concerning the “Echo”. (^_~ )

I'll have to take that suggestion and pretend this is a memory! That being said, I don't think it would have been that complicated to make an alternative without Estinien - there are other Dragoons in Ishgard!
The reason I felt a bit disappointed is because there are plenty of npc's that have changed dialogue during and after Heavensward. I was hoping this attention would be brought to the job quests, though of course I do understand that would be more complicated than just changing a line of dialogue - but not by that much! They could have changed the name of the character without having to touch the model much. Could have changed a few lines of dialogue to place it in another context.

But of course, story isn't as linear as that either - as stated above, what if someone played half the dragoon job, finished heavensward and came back?

In other words I understand though that doesn't necessarily mean I'm happy with it. As silly as it sounds it would be a lot more bearable if there was an "echo" animation playing at the start of the job quests!

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Originally Posted by Odstarva

I'll have to take that suggestion and pretend this is a memory! That being said, I don't think it would have been that complicated to make an alternative without Estinien - there are other Dragoons in Ishgard!
The reason I felt a bit disappointed is because there are plenty of npc's that have changed dialogue during and after Heavensward. I was hoping this attention would be brought to the job quests, though of course I do understand that would be more complicated than just changing a line of dialogue - but not by that much! They could have changed the name of the character without having to touch the model much. Could have changed a few lines of dialogue to place it in another context.

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But you being the Azure Dragoon, chosen by the Eye of Nidhogg, is integral to that story. Ishgard doesn't have either Eye anymore, so the entire thing would have to be re-written. They'd also have to re-write the 50-60 story since you wouldn't be the Azure Dragoon.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

Hah! I was genuinly curious how they handled this when I saw the end of the 3.0 story. Funny thing is, I'm sure the same people who debated locking jobs behind Ishgard for "Lore Reasons" will likely rationalize this as being "Two different time periods" and say that the events of the cutscenes of DRG 2.0 took place before the events of 3.0. Lul.

Thanks for the information! :) I was honestly wondering while going through the story if Mr.Azure's armor would be red, and then I got to the end and was like, "I HAVE SO MANY QUESTIONS..."


Edit: Hot ****, see? They've already started with their flimsy excuse. Gotta love that lore narrative only being important when it applies to what you care about o/

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Ishgard is totally inaccessible until you manage certain story feats, so jobs only available there were always going to be locked in there. Old job quests were always available and thus, always happened before Heavensward. It's not a flimsy excuse, it's a logical one when it comes to limiting the amount of reworking they would have to do.

I mean, what would they do in my situation? I levelled LNC/DRG to 34, so I've seen Estinien (Who acknowledged he knew me, but unlike others who maxed the class, I have never been recognised as an azure dragoon), but if I go back to it at this moment, it'd make no sense whatsoever unless it's essentially a flashback. To modify the story that first quest set up (Potentially once for each stage someone did / did not do before HW) would be pretty hard. I met the guy and he was a dick, if I go back for the 35 quest and he's simply never seen again, how do they replace him?

TL;DR, think for an additional moment and it works much simpler for all the stuff locked into 2.x to -always- have occured in 2.x

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Originally Posted by Odstarva

I'll have to take that suggestion and pretend this is a memory! That being said, I don't think it would have been that complicated to make an alternative without Estinien - there are other Dragoons in Ishgard!

The reason I felt a bit disappointed is because there are plenty of npc's that have changed dialogue during and after Heavensward. I was hoping this attention would be brought to the job quests, though of course I do understand that would be more complicated than just changing a line of dialogue - but not by that much! They could have changed the name of the character without having to touch the model much. Could have changed a few lines of dialogue to place it in another context.

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Hid my reply, due to possible spoilers for people who haven’t progressed through both the Dragoon Job Quests and the Main Story Quests.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

But you being the Azure Dragoon, chosen by the Eye of Nidhogg, is integral to that story. Ishgard doesn't have either Eye anymore, so the entire thing would have to be re-written. They'd also have to re-write the 50-60 story since you wouldn't be the Azure Dragoon.

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What Daralii said rings true and it would be strange to simply replace Estinien in the Dragoon Class Quests, due to the fact that there are only 2 Azure Dragoons in existence (which is being explained during the Job Quests. But, the story in the Dragoon Job Quests also explains more about Estinien himself. People would miss out on that little tidbit of information.

But, keep in mind that IF the Job quests would have to evolve based on the Main Story Quest, they still need to make sense within the Lore set for the game as well as the time and context in which the quests take place.

This will require more then just changing a name and a “few lines of text”. (^_~ ) As you progress through the Dragoon quests, you will witness events you could not have seen, if Estinien wasn’t involved within these quests like he is right now.

you did it in the wrong order.
if you had finished the DRG quest first, when you first meet estinien in the main story he'll recognize and acknowledge you.

this is basically the same reaction when people did the CUL Quest after nanamo was poisoned

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Originally Posted by Raeletta

TL;DR, think for an additional moment and it works much simpler for all the stuff locked into 2.x to -always- have occured in 2.x

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Cheap and flimsy excuse by virtue of the fact that you could easily explain away your feats being completed in 2.0 and 3.0 being the start of its own story. GASP! It works both ways! "I didn't get Ishgard access pre-3.0, just like I didn't become an Azure Dragoon post-3.0."


See how flimsy the logic is when you "Think for an additional moment"? It's such a flimy argumenet that literally the arguement you try to make instantly can be turned around and thrown against it, and succeed.

I do not have any unreasonable expectations of SE. But I do think there are things that could be done far better - the content capping for new jobs, etc. is one of the biggest ones that I'm against. I do think it'd of been AWESOME if we had maybe another way to identify a new Azure Dragoon. Gods know they do things in handwaves saying there was "Another way" the whole time.

Let's take a look at Summoner:
Oh, you never actually fought Bahamut in 2.0? It's fine. YOU'RE TOTALLY ABLE TO CHANNEL HIS AETHER BECAUSE YOUR CHARACTER WAS AT CARTANEU.

Seriously? I hated this excuse for SMN. I was looking forward to something AWESOME, and instead got a handwave of an explanation. But you know what? At least contextually, it works. Just like any of the jobs being available pre-50 would've worked.

TL;dr. Think for a moment and it makes sense if all 2.0 stuff occurs in 2.0, and shouldn't be a limiting factor for the player accessing content outside of 2.0.

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Originally Posted by Aldora

snip snip

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I understand! I suppose if it was just the one quest it would be easier to replace, but being as it seems to be the whole job quests, there wasn't really much of a way around it. Oh well!

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

Cheap and flimsy excuse by virtue of the fact that you could easily explain away your feats being completed in 2.0 and 3.0 being the start of its own story. GASP! It works both ways! "I didn't get Ishgard access pre-3.0, just like I didn't become an Azure Dragoon post-3.0."


See how flimsy the logic is when you "Think for an additional moment"? It's such a flimy argumenet that literally the arguement you try to make instantly can be turned around and thrown against it, and succeed.

I do not have any unreasonable expectations of SE. But I do think there are things that could be done far better - the content capping for new jobs, etc. is one of the biggest ones that I'm against. I do think it'd of been AWESOME if we had maybe another way to identify a new Azure Dragoon. Gods know they do things in handwaves saying there was "Another way" the whole time.

Let's take a look at Summoner:
Oh, you never actually fought Bahamut in 2.0? It's fine. YOU'RE TOTALLY ABLE TO CHANNEL HIS AETHER BECAUSE YOUR CHARACTER WAS AT CARTANEU.

Seriously? I hated this excuse for SMN. I was looking forward to something AWESOME, and instead got a handwave of an explanation. But you know what? At least contextually, it works. Just like any of the jobs being available pre-50 would've worked.

TL;dr. Think for a moment and it makes sense if all 2.0 stuff occurs in 2.0, and shouldn't be a limiting factor for the player accessing content outside of 2.0.

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I read this like four times and still can't figure out what you're trying to say.

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Originally Posted by TheCurls

I read this like four times and still can't figure out what you're trying to say.

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I would love some more substance in your critique. Saying "I don't understand what you're trying to say" is a little but... vague. It makes it difficult to respond, because I don't necessarily know what to respond to. I suppose I will try to outline my thoughts:


1) Content should not be gated behind 3.0 story, because the same arguement that 2.0 content "Appeared in the past" on Dragoon, can be used to likewise say that the story of 2.0-2.55 "occured in the past." It's like watching the prequel to a movie (Even though 9/10 times that creates massive plotholes) after watching the first movie. It should only add to the story.

2) There are noted occurances where cheap excuses are given for things that don't quite make sense by my eye. The summoner being the biggest one I've noticed so far - where before, we fought the primals first and were bathed in their aether through combat, you now have that just being present at Cartaneu (I might be spelling it wrong, sorry) enables you to use Bahamut's Trance.

3) I do not think SE did a bad job. But I do think there are bad decisions made within the game design, which is my biggest thing that I always argue against. There will be various opinions on this, but it is what it is.

Same thing maybe like when we're going to save Y'shtola. We need her half sister Y'mithra and if we've already done SMN's job quests, Tataru or someone will say "What? You already know her?" kind of like that. And also I think Kan-E-Senna's siblings nodded at me when they were about to leave after finished pulling Y'shtola out of lifestream because I've already finished WHM's job quests, like they've already known me.

Wait He was in the story before? sweet I gotta go back to watch my old cuts now lol

I just consider the job/class quests for 2.x content to be mostly flashbacks so I see no problem as far as immersion in the game world or my character's story is concerned.

But estinien isn't dead... He just turned into a vessel for nidhogg. He'll most likely chance back after you beat him for the second time...

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Originally Posted by AriaEnia

And also I think Kan-E-Senna's siblings nodded at me when they were about to leave after finished pulling Y'shtola out of lifestream because I've already finished WHM's job quests, like they've already known me.

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Nope, they nod at you regardless. I was there on a Paladin who hasn't even gotten to the point where I could unlock WHM, and my only contact with either of them was unlocking Amdapor Township.

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Originally Posted by Ilenya

Nope, they nod at you regardless. I was there on a Paladin who hasn't even gotten to the point where I could unlock WHM, and my only contact with either of them was unlocking Amdapor Township.

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Then you have met them right?

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

1)
2)
3)

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I can understand where you're coming from, but I'm a little confused what point you're trying to make in relation to this thread? The dragoon content in question isn't gated behind 3.0 story. By saying "content should not be gated behind 3.0 story" it seems like you agree with being able to do dragoon content out of order? But you also say that having a specific timeline for 2.0 and 3.0 content is a "flimsy excuse" which makes it sound like you disagree with how dragoon quests are handled.

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Originally Posted by WellFooled

snipperoonies~

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Not necessarily. I dislike that the arguement that we need a static, singularly-flowing timeline in the game, and that it is used as (in my eye) a cheap excuse as "Lore Reasons" for certain actions encated by SE. I am cool doing DRG quests out of order in relation to MSQ. :) And likewise, I think that you should be able to pick up the new jobs, 'out of order'...

Right now, the way things are, the two different treatments of the Job Quests vs. MSQ/Sidequests are, unfortunately, something I find to be what creates the dissonance in my thoughts.

However... I think that ultimatey from your comments, my conversation derails the subject slightly, so should likely be dropped in favor of following the OP's original thoughts. My appologies for the trouble.

As far as the quest is handled... I suppose I would've loved to have seen them handle it differently, but I get that they decided to focus on the current content. It would've been awesome to see a new character maybe introduced, a new method, etc etc... something different, maybe even pulling the NPC that trained alongside Eistinien into the fray even sooner than we recieved in 3.0 - that'd of been quite interesting!

You people that "have a hard time" with "dissonance" due to the Job quests being pre-3.0 content (and thus before 3.0 timeline wise) must have a brain aneurysm every time you run an instance for a second time or more. Or do MSQ Roulette.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

You people that "have a hard time" with "dissonance" due to the Job quests being pre-3.0 content (and thus before 3.0 timeline wise) must have a brain aneurysm every time you run an instance for a second time or more. Or do MSQ Roulette.

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Repeating content isn't the same as doing a job quest for the first time. That's not a very good comparison! And I certainly hope the "You people" wasn't directed at me.. Though if it wasn't, I wonder what "people" it is you're refering to!

Blizzard created the same problem for themselves in Cataclysm.

Lord of the Rings Online is even more nutty in terms of its time dilation. Depending on where in the game world you are, you are at a different point of time in the story. You start the game near the Shire just after the Fellowship's starting members departed from there. As you continue through the story and travel through Middle Earth, you are continuously following behind them. What this means is if you are currently at Helm's Deep, you are at Helm's Deep about when the Fellowship was there. If you then travel back to the Shire, you are at the Shire about when the Fellowship was there nearly a year ago. You literally travel through time when you move from one area of LOTRO to the other.

That was pretty funny seeing Estinien alive and well again, part of me was like "oh hey Estinien, over the whole Nidhogg thing? Armor black again?" But nope! I's just a flashback. XD

This is the reason I cant immerse into the story.

Yshtolas sister is my summoner trainer, yet when we met she didnt act like she knew me. And she and I literally just saw eachother.she even taught me a spell. Is a simple "hi how are you?" Too much to ask.

Also having a single player story in an mmorpg is kinda lame.

The main characters are saying the exact same thing to me and my alt.
they are just using us both :(

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

Let's take a look at Summoner:
Oh, you never actually fought Bahamut in 2.0? It's fine. YOU'RE TOTALLY ABLE TO CHANNEL HIS AETHER BECAUSE YOUR CHARACTER WAS AT CARTANEU.

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The explanation changes slightly depending on if you're legacy or not:

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

In the LV58 Job Quest for SMN, Y'mhitra explains your interaction with Bahamut aether, and there's actually a flag that changes the explanation based on the experiences of your character.

Legacy
You were there at the Battle of Carteneau. You were there on the day of the Calamity when aether infused with the dragon's essence rained down upon the field.

Non-Legacy
On the day of the Calamity, the dragon vanished in an explosion so massive that his aether was carried to the far corners of Eorzea. You, among many others, have already been touched by his essence.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

1) Content should not be gated behind 3.0 story, because the same arguement that 2.0 content "Appeared in the past" on Dragoon, can be used to likewise say that the story of 2.0-2.55 "occured in the past." It's like watching the prequel to a movie (Even though 9/10 times that creates massive plotholes) after watching the first movie. It should only add to the story.

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The chronological story flow is set by the mainstory. The date where side events happen is around where the player will be normally in the mainstory while unlocking it. For the job quests it is between the fight against Titan (lv 30) und the fight against Ultima Weapon (lv 50). The story of the new jobs happen long after it in the chronological story flow, after you joined the house Fortemps as a guest.

Also the reason why every guild you join see just a beginner in you, and not the WoL. Because joining a guild is dated to the very beginning of the story (unlocked at level 10).

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Originally Posted by Kiara1

This is the reason I cant immerse into the story.

Yshtolas sister is my summoner trainer, yet when we met she didnt act like she knew me. And she and I literally just saw eachother.she even taught me a spell. Is a simple "hi how are you?" Too much to ask.

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Hmm, have you already finished the lv 50 jobquest before you met her again?

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Originally Posted by Felis

Hmm, have you already finished the lv 50 jobquest before you met her again?

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Yeah I met her in the main quest but I had met her already in my summoner quests. And she was all bitchy and didnt say hi.
Maybe im not cool enough to be her friend around other people :c

Let's just say "It's the Wandering Minstrel recounting the tales of you ascending the ranks of the Dragoons (which I guess you had forgotten all about somehow)", and that's why you're seeing Estinien.

This is actually the #1 reason I'm telling new people to level up DRG as their first 50+ job. I'm SOOOOOOO glad I got it to 50 before the expac dropped.

At least with Nanamo you could pretend that was her body double. She's an empress, I'm sure she has one.

Edit to add: Also having completed the 50 SMN quest, Y'Mhitra totally recognizes you and is like "oh hey wassup." I think that's ONLY if you're at 50 for the class though.

Also, the leatherworker guild leader did a "oh hey wassup" when I was picking up that thing for Tataru.

Yeah, I think it's lazy to use the whole "2.x was set in the past" excuse. It's illogical and it shows poor planning, which is surprising as SE's lore is usually pretty tight.

On the plus side, as a legacy character it's still nice to get the occasional nod of the head like how Rostnsthal recognises you in the first MCH quest.

Side note: Is that for all Legacy characters or only those that started in Limsa and got that boat ride?

Semi related. I leveled drg as my 1st job at arr release. Throughout 3.0 story, einstinion constantly referred to me as an azure dragoon (as I stood their with a giant axe). "With 2 azure dragoons, who knows what is possible" (talking about possibly killing nidhogg etc) and many other times throughout the story.

Does he still refer to players without the drg quests done as azure dragoon? Or is the text changed to more generic warrior of light?

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Originally Posted by Izsha

Semi related. I leveled drg as my 1st job at arr release. Throughout 3.0 story, einstinion constantly referred to me as an azure dragoon (as I stood their with a giant axe). "With 2 azure dragoons, who knows what is possible" (talking about possibly killing nidhogg etc) and many other times throughout the story.

Does he still refer to players without the drg quests done as azure dragoon? Or is the text changed to more generic warrior of light?

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Nope, the reference to you being the 2nd azure dragon only happens if you finished the 50 DRG quest. He remembers you kicking the Nidhogg possession out of him once before, so he's a LOT more respectful to the player character in general if you have 50 DRG.

Yeah what you need to do is remember that anything you're doing from "2.0-2.55 aka A realm Reborn" actually happened before Heavensward. Regardless if you finished Heavensward first and then started doing the questline from 2.0. If you noticed, Estinien is no where to be seen or found in 50-60 Job quests for DRG.

And estinien in 3.0 makes reference to material you would know if you had completed the DRG questline previously to 3.0.

The simplest way SE could "fix" this is to have a message saying "This quest takes place prior to -insert relevent event here-" for things like this. Unlike Nanamo the DRG storyline will always be wierd if you did/finished Heavensward before doing/completing DRG to 50, though it does give some nice background for Estinien. Call it lazy if you wish, but it would help some people most likely.

Also I did get summoner to 50 pre-HW and Y'mithra totally recognized me.