Even when they have WM turned on, I can't run away from bard QQ.
BRD Changes Are Spoiling Heavensward for Me
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07-10-2015, 01:54 PMWilbowBRD Changes Are Spoiling Heavensward for Me
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07-10-2015, 01:55 PMAtlaworks
Just because most of their whining is unwarranted doesn't mean this isn't unwarranted either
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07-10-2015, 02:01 PMWilbowThere are legitimate complaints, and nobody minds people speaking their minds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlaworks
After a while though, it starts feeling like beating a dead horse.
A while after that, you reach the territory of the current BRD QQ.
I wouldn't even mind the complaining so much if there was any consistency about what bards want out of the class. As of now, there's little SE can do with WM where at least SOME players won't bitch and moan.
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For a more in-depth analysis:
Bards are a class that, in 2.0, had a combination of DPS, utility, and unparalleled mobility. SE considers them support DPS, but in duty finder, you don't get a separation of DPS and support DPS. If BRDs matched the DPS of casters (and god forbid melee), then they basically crowd out everything because they get so many bonus perks. So, logically, having these things means that you should be doing less DPS.
Here's the problem: What the hell is the DPS value of mobility and utility? On some fights, they're next to useless. On others, it's a MASSIVE boon. If you're trying to balance BRDs/MCHs on par with other jobs, you're boned. It CAN'T completely happen. They will be, at best, OP in some situations and UP in others. MP and TP restoring songs are great during many fights on progression, but BRDs and MCHs are often thrown out if DPS checks aren't being met. Trading a little DPS for mobility sounds AWESOME on fights where you constantly have to move, but terrible on fights where you're standing in one place for a large portion of the fight. People that love playing BRD or MCH could be at risk at facing situations where they simply ARE NOT WANTED because they are a LIABILITY. Period.
WM, I think, was designed to place a definitive value on BRD mobility (while restricting it), and (hopefully) it is SE's way of trying to make BRD somewhat balanceable. Therefore, I can see why some love it and others hate it.
I'd simply argue that, instead of going for homogenization, we might as well embrace the concept of BRDs being a support DPS. We should change WM to a cooldown reserved for burst phases with the same restrictions as now, largely return bard mobility, and tune them to having about 15-25% less DPS than pure DPS.
IN RETURN, have their core abilities (not CDs) put unique and unstackable debuffs that increase the amount of damage enemies (including raid bosses) take, so that their utility is linked to player skill in the same way that DPS is. It should be tuned such that 4-man party DPS should work out to be about the same regardless of whether a BRD/MCH or pure DPS takes the DPS slots, while 8-man party is optimized with 3 pure (BLM/SMN/MNK/DRG) DPS and 1 support (MCH/BRD) DPS. It's not really different than how things effectively turned out throughout 2.x, but it makes balancing BRD and MCH so much easier for SE while keeping the gameplay BRDs rolled the job for. -
07-10-2015, 02:09 PMAtlaworks
Naw man I totally agree with you they're mostly nonsense by this point where the good and constructive points are buried behind weird crap like "I want competitive DPS and no WM and also keep my support but maybe buff it".
But yeah stuff like this isn't gonna fix it. In fact, you might get some bards shouting at you over it. I mean probably not over this ultra-meta conversation we just had, but you get what I mean. Just y'know... at the end of the day. You can never make everyone happy. That's just human nature- try to hit a median. -
07-10-2015, 02:24 PMLillia
Not even the fantasia or riot thread was as bad as this, least they kept it mostly in one thread! :o
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07-10-2015, 02:25 PMGardthorne
They should honestly just take away their bows and give them harps like they were meant to have.
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07-10-2015, 02:27 PMSendohJinjust wait till you get into DF 4 man dungeon with 2 harp users. see how long it takes you to clear it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gardthorne
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07-10-2015, 02:29 PMRonyx
This kind of topics are so funny. First people complain that BRD and MCH were doing few damage. Now after this last Tuesday patch their dmg got increased a ton and they still complain?
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07-10-2015, 02:32 PMRyuDragnierOnly the BRDs, the MCHs seem to be perfectly fine with it. It's mostly a vocal minority that doesn't seem to know how to work the class that seem to be complaining. The ones that do either want QoL changes (totally fine IMO) or they're perfectly fine with how it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronyx
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07-10-2015, 02:35 PMSnowaethGood. We get to suffer together at least.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilbow
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07-10-2015, 02:37 PMSendohJin"the MCHs" have only existed for 3 weeks. Gauss Barrel was in the patch notes before the servers came up for people to unlock Machinists.Quote:
Originally Posted by RyuDragnier
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07-10-2015, 02:37 PMLilliaIt does need changing but the thing is that most Bards seem to want changes WITHOUT having to change too much, if at all with the changes. < the problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by RyuDragnier
I personally don't see the whole problem with the skill and it's fine in my opinion aside from the kinks that need working on but... ya know. -
07-10-2015, 02:40 PMShougunWith all that cheer it would be the tank's fault for not clearing the dungeon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DcqnkzGEFQ.Quote:
Originally Posted by SendohJin
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07-10-2015, 02:56 PMLillia
I will say that this thread is nice to talk in because I don't need to worry about a million raging bards trying to rip out my throat for my comments...yet anyways.
People in this one seem pretty chill about most of it so far, aside from the feels about the complain threads that are constantly being made. -
07-10-2015, 03:00 PMRekujinhey that was my thread :P and now i've made a huge brd thread too roflQuote:
Originally Posted by Lillia
/bow -
07-10-2015, 03:02 PMLilliaYour riot thread was the best then, if you are the said creator of it. <3 :oQuote:
Originally Posted by Rekujin
But the bard threads are :mad: at the moment, no offense. -
07-10-2015, 03:04 PMRekujinhttp://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...the-MogstationQuote:
Originally Posted by Lillia
:D -
07-10-2015, 03:10 PMLilliaOh no, I meant this one. xD Fantasia Thread it got really ridiculous to the point where you'd see the whole fantasia or riot stuff in the live chat boxes when SE did lives. :oQuote:
Originally Posted by Rekujin
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07-10-2015, 03:19 PMckc22I wish. If Bard was actual support instead of a pseudo-ranger I'd play it in a second.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gardthorne
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07-10-2015, 03:51 PMNekodar
If BRD and MCH are being thrown out of parties for the parties not meeting dps checks, it is:
1) BRD/MCH playing badly
2) other DPS playing badly
3) Tank/Healers playing badly
and it all boils down to players being bad.
It would be seriously fun to see what a full party consisting of non-class/job stacking tanks/healers combined with any combination of MCH and BRD (including MCH only or BRD only) is capable of. -
07-10-2015, 04:48 PMsirDartsOK, OK, I'll bite.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nekodar
If a DPS check is not being met, despite everyone being alive, how exactly can that be the Healer's fault? -
07-10-2015, 04:49 PMFateAudax
Look son, the top "experts" of Bard class are gathered in this thread. I'm pretty sure these people are top "experts" in class balancing and game mechanics too.
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07-10-2015, 04:50 PMLilliabecause lvl 60 bard is an expert now? :DQuote:
Originally Posted by FateAudax
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07-10-2015, 05:17 PMKen_8O
How about this. I'll make it really simple. We don't want to be rooted, it's not fun. If this was the #1 reason you enjoyed this class, and it is for many then is DOES ruin heavensward for people.
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07-10-2015, 05:24 PMnuyu11
Honestly most of my Bard friend already switch Job because not many party willing to take them into the group, I'm stuck with Bard because I have no choice because this is the only Job lvl60 I have, I will lvl another Job when my schedule less tight.
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07-10-2015, 06:10 PMNekodarWhile I listed Tank/Healers as one possibility, even if not likely, spamming overheals to the degree that bards need to ballad constantly is one way to lower party dps below dps check requirements.Quote:
Originally Posted by sirDarts
That would be bad players, wouldn't you say? -
07-10-2015, 07:00 PMShaneDawnwhile I agree with pretty much everything you say, we're reaching the point where people dom't even want to take BRDs/MCNs into parties. While skill>gear/class, these classes seem to require so much more effort currently to put a decent dps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilbow
And while ranged+mobility+support are a valid reason to lose some dps, I think the same should apply to WAR. I see the best Warriors out-dpsng anything but the greatest of dps players, and even then they usually out dps awesome BRD/MCN players. If a DPS CLASS loses dps potential because of additional perks, shouldn't a TANKING CLASS also have the same set-back dps-wise?
Sometimes SE makes no sense. -
07-10-2015, 07:15 PMUBERHAXEDWarrior is melee. If bards are melee (and therefore still lose the "mobility") then there wouldn't be a problem. Also if you take all the support skills from bard, then no one would want them in statics. It's not about bard's DPS. Bards/Machinists have skills that other DPS classes don't have which make them still a required raid slot.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaneDawn
Tell me what reason someone would take a BLM in a raid when all melee do more damage, summoner has higher utility and less dependence and standing still for 30 seconds at a time and ranged have support skills for melee, tanks, casters, healers, and themselves? Let's not ignore the fact that every fight is anti-black mage right now. Seriously, even in dungeons the bosses can't let you attack for the first 10 seconds of the fight without interruption. -
07-10-2015, 08:01 PMShaneDawnI don't disagree with most of whst you said. Melee should have perks, and that is more straight-out potency when in the damaging range. Still; the gap between actual dmg potencies atm is far and wide, and I think people often forget how fast the melees can usually gap-close into the boss anyways. The biggest thing is this though; I wouldn't like to see BRD/MCn fall into a pure TP/MP bot caregory where they're really only desired for the HARDEST raids and nowhere else.Quote:
Originally Posted by UBERHAXED
However; Warrior is not a dps class. Atm it's the ideal class with the ability to tank, do heavy dps and maintain great debuffs (eye/path). I don't think a tanking class should exceed the dps potential of a dps class, even in damage trinkets.
I know BLMs are in a tight spot right now, and I'm hoping they'll get some justified adjustments. At least there's Ravana Ex, which is an ideal fight for a BLM lol. -
07-10-2015, 08:10 PMShaneDawn
*continuation*
If the support classes are indeed in an ideal spot dps-wise right now, they should be compensated with actual support benefits that are to be desired outside only the hardest fights where you'll see the healers running dry of mp. This could be achieved by adding meaningful debuffs (or buffs) that help other dps players shine more. Sure, bards have Foe's Requiem, but that's a real benefit for the casters. I don't think that's enough of a redeeming feature to really make the support classes desired outside where feeding mp/tp is a necessity. -
07-10-2015, 09:01 PMSpookyGhostI agree, though I think BRD/MCH damage should be buffed to surpass WAR, rather than WAR nerfed to be less than BRD/MCH.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaneDawn