Bard qq

I've been playing bard since arr release and this total play style change sucks. I feel like I just wasted over 2 years of game play. Brd feels slow and clunky now. If I wanted to play a casting role I would have chosen one of the 5 available already. It makes me mad just thinking about all the time and money wasted for yoshi to trash my favorite job in one update. What was suppose to be fun playing the new expansion just ended up a waste of money. I don't care if they buff it to 40 percent damage increase. I played brd because of the play style not cast with a bow. I'll hold my breath for a little while but it's going to be a job swap or quit for me I have a feeling. Rant over.

Nobody said you have to use Menuet.

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Originally Posted by Koyuki38

Nobody said you have to use Menuet.

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At this point we're pretty much forced to

I don't feel like changing the nature of jobs with the expansion was a good idea. Expand on them, sure. But change the way their core gameplay goes? Nah.

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Originally Posted by Koyuki38

Nobody said you have to use Menuet.

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Nah, let's have it turned off and loose out on 30% damage buff and ignore 4 new abilities and bring down the entire group by shitty dps.

Minuet is terrible game design, it's not optional, nothing is optional in FFXIV class/job wise.

Yeah this was similar to my first comments to friends. It just isn't fun to play. Like you said it feels slow and clunky which when you have as many abilities as BRD is just a bad combination. It's an exercise in futility to try keep on top of oGCD's right now.

I've mained ARC since 1.0 and I think this is the most dissatisfied I've been with the job. This is even harder to take on the chin than the huge nerf they gave around 1.2 or 1.22 (from best DPS to worst in 1 update). It's such a huge playstyle change as 2.0 BRD and WM BRD are polar opposites. BRD's sheer number of oGCD's are not a good fit for WM's casting times.

Right now I've told my LS/FC that I won't play BRD in any serious content (which right now there isn't any anyway). It's not fun and I'd feel like a liability. So I'm quickly levelling my PLD so I can play that until they fix BRD

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Originally Posted by Koyuki38

Nobody said you have to use Menuet.

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So 3/5 of our new skills revolve around this song and outside of that one of the new skills is a song that is nearly completely useless (Warden's Paeon). So no we don't have to use WM but SE pretty much forced us to. Cast times as a class that people loved for it's mobility is absurd.

Some like it, some hate it. I like it. It may not be perfect or enough to bring us up to par but a DPS stance on a DPS class (thats been pigeon-holed into a non-existing role and punished on its actual role because of it) is a change in the right direction IMO. Besides, theyve made it so you can dance in and out of it without any setback. Our cast times are faster than actual paper-wearing casters and the animation locks at the end make it so we can stick and move a bit quite frequently without as big of a DPS hit. Im pretty sure we still kick ass (relative other classes) during heavy movement phases too, even without WM. Not much by itself but again, not a luxury other casters have. We're still the most mobile class in the game afaik.

I giggle every time i see people complain "managing ogcd skills"
We have 3.
Count them, THREE. One has a 1 minute cooldown, the other 2 are 15 seconds. (Bloodletter shares recast with RoD, so not 2 separate skills)

Bloodletter has been macro'd into Heavy Shot since level 15, Empy Arrow slots neatly between any cast and RoF can be thrown down whenever i want.

If you cannot manage to fit 3 oGCDs around a 1.5 second cast with a 2.5 second recast, the problem certainly isn't Minuet.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

We have 3.

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Bloodletter/RoD, Emp. Arrow, Repelling Shot, Blunt Arrow, Misery's End, Flaming Arrow, Sidewinder, plus buffs?

I haven't been in school for a while, so maybe my math is rusty, but I count more than 3.

Bloodletter also isn't necessarily a 15 second cooldown. It could be anywhere from 0 to 15 seconds depending on procs. And you can't use it while casting, but you could easily use it when dealing with instant shots.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

I giggle every time i see people complain "managing ogcd skills"

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I'll have a giggle, thank you. Let's count them:

1. Bloodletter/RoD. (15 sec recast, random Rivers of Blood procs)
2. Blunt Arrow. (30 sec recast)
3. Repelling Shot. (30 sec recast)
4. Flaming Arrow. (1 min recast)
5. Empyreal Arrow. (15 sec recast, affected by SkS)
6. Sidewinder. (1 min recast)
7. Misery's End. (12 sec recast)

Not 3 off-GCD, eh? Let's add 5 more on top of that and a dex-pot.

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Bloodletter has been macro'd into Heavy Shot since level 15

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Oh, a troll, I see.

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If you cannot manage to fit 3 oGCDs around a 1.5 second cast with a 2.5 second recast, the problem certainly isn't Minuet.

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Sigh, opinion discarded.

http://i.imgur.com/RK5v7bA.gif

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Originally Posted by Sylve

I giggle every time i see people complain "managing ogcd skills"
We have 3.
Count them, THREE. One has a 1 minute cooldown, the other 2 are 15 seconds. (Bloodletter shares recast with RoD, so not 2 separate skills)

Bloodletter has been macro'd into Heavy Shot since level 15, Empy Arrow slots neatly between any cast and RoF can be thrown down whenever i want.

If you cannot manage to fit 3 oGCDs around a 1.5 second cast with a 2.5 second recast, the problem certainly isn't Minuet.

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I laughed at this one, counting BL as a 15 second cooldown tells me you either dont use dots or dont really understand bard. I just did the math and its 9.9 seconds on average at 25% critrate. Also its an rng proc ogcd so you can get "unlucky" and get a string of them that normally would be a blessing except you can be forced to not use them because it would fuck your rotation which is really really really frustraiting.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

http://i.imgur.com/RK5v7bA.gif

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This is how I feel.

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Originally Posted by MrYaah

I laughed at this one, counting BL as a 15 second cooldown tells me you either dont use dots or dont really understand bard. I just did the math and its 9.9 seconds on average at 25% critrate. Also its an rng proc ogcd so you can get "unlucky" and get a string of them that normally would be a blessing except you can be forced to not use them because it would fuck your rotation which is really really really frustraiting.

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Had this happen last night.. hit BL then SS, just as i hit SS, BL proc, then proc again during the cast bar. smh;fml

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

Bloodletter/RoD, Emp. Arrow, Repelling Shot, Blunt Arrow, Misery's End, Flaming Arrow, Sidewinder, plus buffs?

I haven't been in school for a while, so maybe my math is rusty, but I count more than 3.

Bloodletter also isn't necessarily a 15 second cooldown. It could be anywhere from 0 to 15 seconds depending on procs. And you can't use it while casting, but you could easily use it when dealing with instant shots.

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Blunt Arrow serves a purpose, Silence. Sometimes you can use it every cooldown due to no silence required mechanics, (to be fair most times) but is otherwise not exactly a main rotational skill. Thus conditional.
Misery's End is only usable for the last 20% of a fight. Again, not exactly rotational, Also conditional.
Repelling Shot is a defensive shot, especially with WM, you lose far more than gain from the 80 potency shot by trying to use it every time its up. Therefore conditional.

BL/RoD share recast, so it's effectively one skill, you simply decide whether you need AoE or not. Being macro'd to Heavy Shot, BL is going to fire off the split second it procs anyway.
Flaming Arrow is a 1 minute recast, easily slotted in anywhere after a weaponskill.
Empy Arrow is easily slotted after ANY weaponskill. Hell, most of the time I've got another shot casting before i even hit the ground during the animation.
Sidewinder i cannot comment on, as i don't yet have it.

So thats 7 total off global attacks you can use, 3 of which are heavily conditional and not part of our main rotations.
You use em when you can, not because they're essential in the way BL and Empy are.
Damage cooldowns are a whole other thing, but again, easily slotted in amongst weapon skill recast times. I don't count these towards "off global skills to manage" because you are not necessarily going to need to slam it the very instant it comes available. On a dummy, sure. In a real fight? Not so much.

You have an entire second in which to throw out an off global skill, be it Bloodletter or Raging Strikes. Minuet only changed our timings.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

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Blunt arrow has been unconditional unless it was T2 or T9. There are very little fights that a silence is needed that I'd consider blunt arrow an uncondition oGCD that should be used whenever possible for damage.

Misery's End, while it requires 20% hp, is still an oGCD and adds onto the problems of bards being able to only weave one during WM. That's still a heft damage loss even in context of bloodletter or repelling shot.

Repelling shot whether you use it for defensive purposes or not (being situational, such as T13 for earthshakers), it's still a damage oGCD. What seperated a good bard from a mediocre one was one that can use it off cooldown and not suffer any repercussions.

Also, you don't macro bloodletter to heavy shot, ever. Causes skill clipping and you'd be losing dps in a long fight.

Sidewinder is also oGCD. The matter of fact is, bard has a lot of oGCDs to work with, and unless they used a instant straight shot proc, you're only going to be able to weave one inbetween each cast. Every second that any of those skills are not on cooldown is wasted damage in the long run, especially if bloodletter resets twice in one oGCD (which has happened plenty of times for me).

Edit : I also noticed that you keep saying rotational. Bard is not a rotational class. They've always worked on a priority skill list, using oGCDs as they come off cooldown and specific skills if the situation demands it (do you have SS up, are Dots up, do you have a proc, so on and so fourth)

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Originally Posted by Sylve

Snip

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Repelling Shot was really easy to use when you had 100% mobility, and it was always a gain because you didn't need to stop shooting. Now you do, so that's harder to use.
Blunt Arrow has incredibly limited use as a silence, so I'd say your assertion that it's conditional is actually false. In a vast majority of encounters, you will use it whenever it's up.
Flaming Arrow is harder to use simply because you can't trigger the target circle while casting.

As for BL, you seem to keep ignoring that it isn't a guaranteed 15 second cooldown or a reliable proc rate. Without WM, you could really mash the button and get 100% of procs. With WM, you could end up missing several because it procs multiple times during a cast time.

I think this can really be summed up as: You never tried to maximize your DPS, and are trying to tell people who did why they're wrong.

Only solution I can see is allow ogcd ability use while casting.

Though if they allow it for bard they need to allow it for everyone and for some classes that'd be broke as shit.

Imo, they should have kept the MW/GB theme only to MCH. New class new mechanic while the bard getting its own thing. They could have just added in a fairly strict buff/debuff priority rotation and it would have been great.

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Originally Posted by Typhoria

Imo, they should have kept the MW/GB theme only to MCH. New class new mechanic while the bard getting its own thing. They could have just added in a fairly strict buff/debuff priority rotation and it would have been great.

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Honestly this was the vibe I was getting when they announced machinist and the concept of using different barrels. It seems really repetitive to give abilities with same concepts to both classes, espesically when one of them was not designed with it in mind (and the other was). I for the life of me cannot stand playing my bard with WM, esp when I keep seeing all those BL resets wasted and cringe when I see straighter shot procs half way into my next heavy shot cast.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Honestly this was the vibe I was getting when they announced machinist and the concept of using different barrels. It seems really repetitive to give abilities with same concepts to both classes, espesically when one of them was not designed with it in mind (and the other was). I for the life of me cannot stand playing my bard with WM, esp when I keep seeing all those BL resets wasted and cringe when I see straighter shot procs half way into my next heavy shot cast.

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Or even worse (for me, anyways), seeing Straighter Shot procs halfway through casting Straight Shot because it was already casting by the time the animation finished and it decided to proc.

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Originally Posted by NovaLevossida

I don't feel like changing the nature of jobs with the expansion was a good idea. Expand on them, sure. But change the way their core gameplay goes? Nah.

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Then go back to dealing mediocre damage without minuet.

Balancing ranged weapons classes with instant abilities in mmos isn't simple.

In WoW, people complain about hunters because as long as they're within 40y of you, you're getting shot. Any tactic used to stop any other class' damage was rendered invalid, worthless, and did nothing to ever stop their damage (kiting, interrupting, and silencing spellcasts, displacement by threatening their well being). There was 0 counterplay to their damage besides CC, or hiding behind a pillar, which all classes are effected by.

I bring this up because BRDs, and MCHs with no cast times are effectively melee with a 30y range. Where every other damage dealing job loses out to hokey pokey movement mechanics, etc. If anything, BRD poor scaling in the latter half of ARR actually kept them balanced. If they had damage comparable to the likes of MNK, DRG, or BLM without any of the downsides each role has (close range/adversely effected by the need to move) that would be broken, and would lead to alot more BRD stacking like in 2.0 days.

In short, I hope there aren't many bards around crying for a free damage bonus without the cast times. There's no nice way of saying it, but that's like asking to faceroll.

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Originally Posted by fanservice

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This is why you give classes differing utility outside of damage. Enough to discourage class stacking anyway. That's why you see DRGs with battle lianity, monks with mantra, so on.

Is this WoW example from a PvP perspective or PvE? If PvP, it's a whole another can of worms that's not related to the discussion at hand. If PvE, then read above what I said. A hunter wasn't going to provide utilities such as stats, spell power or versatility without taking a sub-optimal dps pet, which would not be a problem if you had a warrior, mage, paladin or druid for those instead.

And the thing is with FFXIV content, those downtimes are effectively minimized to negligible amounts by competent melee players who know the fights in and out. Bard stacking happened in 2.0 because they had (admittingly op) utility to themselves that set them aside from other classes, like a damage reduction debuff. Not to mention primal fights that made melee a liability (garuda's wicked wheel comes to mind). Though that's not the case in FCoB fights (which mostly favor melee anyway) and current Alexander fights.

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Originally Posted by fanservice

without any of the downsides each role has

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Why do they need more downsides when they already have inherently lower weapon damage on top of a 15% damage loss when they use 2/3 of their support songs, a damage drop which no other class gets?

Why do they need to be punished to stand still and have cast times just to try to make up that gap in inherently lower damage?

Can you give me an actual reason?

We have 11 oGCD's.

1. Bloodletter (15 Secs / Proc Resets)
2. Blunt Arrow (30 Secs)
3. Repelling Shot (30 Secs / WM makes this hard to keep on CD)
4. Sidewinder (60 Secs)
5. Internal Release (60 Secs)
6. Flaming Arrow (60 Secs)
7. Blood for Blood (80 Secs)
8. Hawkeye (90 Secs)
9. Barrage (90 Secs)
10. Raging Strikes (120 Secs)
11. Misery's End (12 Secs when applicable)

If Miserys End is in play, you have 36 oGCDs to fit in during a 2 minute buff cycle (That's 90 seconds worth of oGCD / 75% of the time). If it is not in play you have 26 (65 seconds / 54% of the cycle).

This does not include any Bloodletter resets, singing, movement, etc. This is purely if you are stood stationary unimpeded with no BL procs.

Saying they are on macro so a non-issue is nonsensical. It's detrimental to the cycle because if you pop a buff and then pop your Heavy Shot macro which fires Bloodletter first, that's a DPS loss as its 2 oGCDs between 1 GCD

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

This is why you give classes differing utility outside of damage. Enough to discourage class stacking anyway. That's why you see DRGs with battle lianity, monks with mantra, so on.

Is this WoW example from a PvP perspective or PvE? If PvP, it's a whole another can of worms that's not related to the discussion at hand. If PvE, then read above what I said. A hunter wasn't going to provide utilities such as stats, spell power or versatility without taking a sub-optimal dps pet, which would not be a problem if you had a warrior, mage, paladin or druid for those instead.

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It's a comparison to a pvp perspective of wow because both bards and hunters largely ignored anything that would ordinarily stop anyone else's damage.

I brought this up because the very idea of having a class that can pull similar dps to the best dd jobs attacking a punching bag, but no penalization for moving is a broken concept in a game where all other classes either have the majority of their damage put on hold because a mechanic made them move (BLM), or a circle on the ground says 'gtfo of kissing range' (MNK, DRG, NIN).

For quite some time, BRD players have been obviously complaining about their lack of damage as ARR went on too.

Square's choice to give them the damage they wanted, but take away the freedom to do it while bunnyhopping around between 5-30y away via a toggled ability was a choice I respect, and all of the above is why. That's all I wanted to say.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

Why do they need more downsides when they already have inherently lower weapon damage on top of a 15% damage loss when they use 2/3 of their support songs, a damage drop which no other class gets?

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That's one of the things I agree should be changed.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

Why do they need to be punished to stand still and have cast times just to try to make up that gap in inherently lower damage?

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See above. If they were putting out MNK quality damage, but from 30y away, while running around the ominous circles or the ground, it would be the DD job everyone would want more of.

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Originally Posted by fanservice

Square's choice to give them the damage they wanted, but take away the freedom to do it while bunnyhopping around between 5-30y away via a toggled ability was a choice I respect, and all of the above is why. That's all I wanted to say.

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It's a choice you respect because you don't play a Bard.

Cast times affect a lot more on a Bard than their mobility.

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Originally Posted by fanservice

Square's choice to give them the damage they wanted, but take away the freedom to do it while bunnyhopping around between 5-30y away via a toggled ability was a choice I respect, and all of the above is why. That's all I wanted to say.

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They didn't give us the damage we wanted, in fact our damage is about on par with where it was prior to 3.0 (doubled damage, but all jobs were doubled some jobs more than doubled, so there really was no increase) and we have to use a crappy stance in-order to do what we were doing in 2.5.

It doesn't make any sense. People have no idea what they're talking about, the job didn't get a damage increase for the most part our damage is exactly the same, but we're forced into casting times and immobility just so we can do THE SAME DAMAGE.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

It's a choice you respect because you don't play a Bard.

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Not my only character. I have played a BRD.

I still respect the idea, even if the execution needs work.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

Cast times affect a lot more on a Bard than their mobility.

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I am aware of the proc issues.

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Originally Posted by Panasync

They didn't give us the damage we wanted, in fact our damage is about on par with where it was prior to 3.0 (doubled damage, but all jobs were doubled some jobs more than doubled, so there really was no increase) and we have to use a crappy stance in-order to do what we were doing in 2.5.

It doesn't make any sense. People have no idea what they're talking about, the job didn't get a damage increase for the most part our damage is exactly the same, but we're forced into casting times and immobility just so we can do THE SAME DAMAGE.

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Saying it again: I respect the IDEA. How it was executed down to the numbers is a different matter.

I personally have no problems with BRDs dealing MNK/DRG/BLM damage tomorrow, as long as they're not bunny-hopping around mechanics, and spamming instants from 20y+ away.

Really there's 3 solutions that would make BRDs happy whilst keeping movement restricted

1. Remove WM cast times but restrict movement a different way (the building stacks of WM during non-movement and them resetting when you move is the best way imo)

2. Allow us to fire oGCDs whilst casting

3. Somehow consolidate some of BRDs oGCDs during WM (I.e. Something like Iron Jaws but for buffs that triggers whatever buffs are available in 1 animation/click). Then maybe some sort of Sidewinder/Bloodletter consolidation (In WM disable BL but lower SW recast to 20-25 secs. Make BL procs reset SW instead in WM.) That sounds overpowered but actually works out at the same potency as current BL/SW set-up, just less button presses.


I have no problem with us being stationary. Its how we handle our oGCDs that is the problem. Right now it's more like a music rhythm game trying to keep on top of everything.

I honestly think it was an oversight by SE and they forgot/didn't realize just how reliant we were on weaving 2 oGCDs between each shot. Other jobs with cast bars don't have anywhere near the numbers of oGCDs that we do so of course it wasn't an issue for them.

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Originally Posted by fanservice

For quite some time, BRD players have been obviously complaining about their lack of damage as ARR went on too.

Square's choice to give them the damage they wanted, but take away the freedom to do it while bunnyhopping around between 5-30y away via a toggled ability was a choice I respect, and all of the above is why. That's all I wanted to say.

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This would true if we actually did damage close to the other classes. Don't get me wrong, I don't intend for BRDs to be ripping apart at the charts but having relevant DPS to help us keep up with the other classes would be nice. I don't really have an issue adjusting with the new way a BRD is played as well but it is clearly evident that the BRD was not designed to be a casting class. Cycling oGCD's and trying to pump out as many BL as fast as we can has actually become extremely difficult. If they had designed WM a little better I don't think the issue would have been as big as it is now. Sometimes it honestly just feels like they kind of just slapped it on and didn't really care for what was going to happen.

Whatever the case, we will all just have to wait and hopefully in the future there will be changes that will make the class more enjoyably to everyone. But until then everyone is just going to have to tough it up or move on sadly.

Just to clear it up to everyone as well. We, as BRDs, are indisputably a DPS class with support skills regardless of what Yoshida, the devs, or anyone else says. The game itself has labeled us as a DPS class, and until a new mechanic is introduced to take us away from that, concerns of having relevant DPS will always be there. The argument of us being a support class not needing DPS is invalid as it is our "Primary" concern according to the role we preform in the system.

Only one question really needs to be answered, which I think sums up our plight entirely: Why does one of the tank classes have significantly higher DPS than a DPS class?

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Originally Posted by Kaith

Really there's 2 solutions that would make BRDs happy whilst keeping movement restricted

1. Remove WM cast times but restrict movement a different way (the building stacks of WM during non-movement and them resetting when you move is the best way imo)

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Yeah, I can see this:

Basically a stacking buff that reduces BRD ability cast times under WM, for each ability cast. Make it like 10% cast time reduction for every cast. As soon as you move, the buff resets back to 0.

Call it Allegro, Melodic Focus, Rifting, whatever...

Or, a converse of this: For every second you go without fully casting an ability under WM, it reduces your cast time by .1 seconds for the next 5 casts. Something like this...

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Originally Posted by Elikzords

Just to clear it up to everyone as well. We, as BRDs, are indisputably a DPS class with support skills regardless of what Yoshida, the devs, or anyone else says. The game itself has labeled us as a DPS class, and until a new mechanic is introduced to take us away from that, concerns of having relevant DPS will always be there. The argument of us being a support class not needing DPS is invalid as it is our "Primary" concern according to the role we preform in the system.

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Just to tack on to what you've already stated, the devs also stated this game is using the trinity (DPS/HEAL/TANK), nowhere in there is support. So if we're going off what devs say people will have to get through that. The reason almost every single job contains some utility and support is exactly BECAUSE this game has NO SUPPORT CLASS to fill that role.

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Originally Posted by Panasync

Just to tack on to what you've already stated, the devs also stated this game is using the trinity (DPS/HEAL/TANK), nowhere in there is support. So if we're going off what devs say people will have to get through that. The reason almost every single job contains some utility and support is exactly BECAUSE this game has NO SUPPORT CLASS to fill that role.

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Indeed and it was meant to be a part of my other post but I didn't see that i seperated it lol.

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Originally Posted by Panasync

Just to tack on to what you've already stated, the devs also stated this game is using the trinity (DPS/HEAL/TANK), nowhere in there is support. So if we're going off what devs say people will have to get through that. The reason almost every single job contains some utility and support is exactly BECAUSE this game has NO SUPPORT CLASS to fill that role.

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Also, we're not in the "Support Roles" forum right now.

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Originally Posted by Panasync

Just to tack on to what you've already stated, the devs also stated this game is using the trinity (DPS/HEAL/TANK), nowhere in there is support. So if we're going off what devs say people will have to get through that. The reason almost every single job contains some utility and support is exactly BECAUSE this game has NO SUPPORT CLASS to fill that role.

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To make matters worse, I recall people saying how devs/yoshi had went back and fourth saying that the game was designed with holy trinity in mind, so tehre'd be no true support classes, bards were a dps class, etc etc etc....

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Originally Posted by Nanga

Yeah, I can see this:

Basically a stacking buff that reduces BRD ability cast times under WM, for each ability cast. Make it like 10% cast time reduction for every cast. As soon as you move, the buff resets back to 0.

Call it Allegro, Melodic Focus, Rifting, whatever...

Or, a converse of this: For every second you go without fully casting an ability under WM, it reduces your cast time by .1 seconds for the next 5 casts. Something like this...

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Sorry to say but that sounds absolutely horrible, it'll be jarring as hell, even worse than WM is now that you need to learn two play styles to constantly switch between in movement heavy fights.

We need WM redesigned without any cast times of any kind, it's horrible game design for our job and I'll keep saying that as much as I need to.

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Originally Posted by Nanga

Yeah, I can see this:

Basically a stacking buff that reduces BRD ability cast times under WM, for each ability cast. Make it like 10% cast time reduction for every cast. As soon as you move, the buff resets back to 0.

Call it Allegro, Melodic Focus, Rifting, whatever...

Or, a converse of this: For every second you go without fully casting an ability under WM, it reduces your cast time by .1 seconds for the next 5 casts. Something like this...

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Well actually what I meant was to remove the casting times from WM entirely. Then have WM work like this

1 WM stack = 10% boost
2 WM stacks = 20% boost
3 WM stacks = 30% boost

When you pop WM you get 1 stack by default. If you use X amount of GCDs without moving (lets say 2), you gain another stack. This goes up to a maximum of 3. As soon as you move, your stacks reset to 1.

So BRD plays the same as it does now except you would be penalized for moving by losing your damage boost from WM.