OFFICIAL Path 3.01 BARD/MCH Feedback thread

so the devs can see feedback on recent changes to the BRD/MCH and how it is doing in the new raids.
I encourage players to keep feedback here and post here so it makes it easier for them to collect data.

Based on the changes I personally do not like it…I do not want to be a black mage. I want to be a mobile supporter range dps. That’s what MCH/BRD are. I do not want to turn into a black mage.

I do not like the changes and want our mobility back.
DISCLAIMER: I don't care about high numbers. I'm talking about playing a job as a advertised as a support mobile/range dps. I do not want to be recolored motionless glass cannon.

How is this thread official?

Maybe it is wishful thinking?

Can't do blm level damage and be a support and be mobile. We have the option of interchanging these mentioned roles, pretty nice. Blm doesn't have an option for mobility phases like we do.

Thank you MrSmiley, someone among Bards that actually understands things :)

I was beating out two blms in Alexander turn 1 today. Mobility does help and MCH still retain quite a bit of it even with Gauss Barrel on. BLMs may parse higher on dummies with all their buffs, but real fights are where it matters.

Now you can do higher dps at the sacrifice of mobility.

You can't have your damn cake and eat it too geez.

I humored the complaint threads for the sake of it but honestly it's sad.

Bard is still just as mobile with WM on, it's not that hard to dodge and attack, if you are getting hit by aoes or losing dps something is wrong.

Calling it a caster bowmage is laughable, as that cast time is shorter than switching from umbral 3 to astral 3.

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Originally Posted by AzraelX

DISCLAIMER: I don't care about high numbers. I'm talking about playing a job as a advertised as a support mobile/range dps. I do not want to be recolored motionless glass cannon.

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If that's the case, you don't need to turn on WM... You will retain your mobility at the cost of extra DPS. All your support still exists.

Think of WM and its associated skills as options during a fight to push further when you can.

Haven't been in Alexander raid yet, but I've tested the Minuet tweak in lvl 60 dungeons earlier this morning.

It's a step in the right direction.

Now it seems like I can turn the song on and leave it on (even after opener) w/o losing dps---at the very least, I'm not struggling to do more dmg than a tank/healer now when they're OT or in Cleric.

...and yes, I've always been in the minority when wanting Bard to be capable of better damage output at the expense of mobility----so disagree with the original poster there

I don't play either class, but I did bring one of our more vocal MCH in my FC for a quick run before work. We had a BLM with us too, and surprisingly to all of us he was beating the BLM in threat bars, and the run didn't feel as long as it normally did.

He's also stated he's very pleased with the buff and didn't expect the extra ten percent bonus to GB. So... I can assume its a step in the right direction?

I haven't had a chance to play yet, but one issue I was having has a bard is the cast bars made it harder to weave in oGCDs like Bloodletter and Internal Release. I like the damage increase and the instacast, but has anyone else noticed this issue (either pre and post changes) andgl given the changes is it better to leave wm off while we line up all our big cds or just stop using weaponskills for a few seconds?

Get rid of Wanderer's / Gauss completely.
Give us back our mobility.

Let's be real, they aren't removing Wanderer's / Gauss and there is no reason to. So making threads about it isn't really going to do anything. It's called learning to adapt to changes or changing to another job If you don't like it. I do know a lot of people that DO like it including me. Stop thinking so selfishly and self-centered about what you perceive to be the one and only true path for brd/mch.

P.S - and the OP misspelled Patch in the title of this thead...

You have your mobility. Just don't turn WM on.

I still think it's slightly... SLIGHTLY... unbalanced still, but... Defo better than before.

Well, better at post-50 stuff.

50 and lower dungeons are hit really hard by Barrage's nerf...

If it had the effect to change from Auto-Attack to it's current incarnation in WM mode, I'd be all for it.

Best of both worlds.

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Originally Posted by MrSmiley

Can't do blm level damage and be a support and be mobile. We have the option of interchanging these mentioned roles, pretty nice. Blm doesn't have an option for mobility phases like we do.

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I don't play bard, but I have been wondering if this is the case... I have a 60 BLM, and it is exceptionally rare that we get to stand still (unless we want to make the healers work harder)

I get the sense that bards are depressed that they can't beat up the target dummy as well as BLMs can, but in practical terms they're probably much closer in terms of boss DPS.

Yes/no?

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Originally Posted by ChloeGrace

Get rid of Wanderer's / Gauss completely.
Give us back our mobility.

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Gauss has a lot of mobility. A MCH who's playing the class right will only be casting on Lead Shot and Hot Shot (once every 30) and when using Split Shot. Every other attack will be instant cast.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

Gauss has a lot of mobility. A MCH who's playing the class right will only be casting on Lead Shot and Hot Shot (once every 30) and when using Split Shot. Every other attack will be instant cast.

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I agree with this completely, tested and tried it and the mobility with Gauss is there most of the time.

100% mobile always? No. But no one who knows a fight needs to always be moving.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

Gauss has a lot of mobility. A MCH who's playing the class right will only be casting on Lead Shot and Hot Shot (once every 30) and when using Split Shot. Every other attack will be instant cast.

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That's only if RNG allows you to be mobile. Of course reloading allows you to move freely but while waiting for that cool down its all up to luck.
I just heard about the changes and I'm stoked to try them out. A cast timer for simply putting on GB and WM hurt DPS alot. I'm glad I can have it in my rotation.

The rotation is still unhealthy since the rng ogcd procs from bl cant be planned for or compansated for by dropping minuet.

Opener cant be effectively done with minuet on but this is compensated for by the insta cast minuet where you can open without then turn it on which is nice.

The dps buff looks nice on paper but its really not what I was looking for, I think they need to rework the design of minuet to work better with bloodletter. Thats really my only complaint. Right now the constant stream of random ogcds completely fucks any chance of a rotation by bard and you're forced to either delay your bls, delay and misalign your buffs, or delay your gcds and clip your dots earlier (and in some situations if you fuck you this will make you drop your dots) and its really unsatisfying.

ATM bard is still broken, its not dps or mobility thats the problem, its the lack of a real consistent rotation and the prevalence of lose lose situations.

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Originally Posted by Thunda51

That's only if RNG allows you to be mobile. Of course reloading allows you to move freely but while waiting for that cool down its all up to luck.
I just heard about the changes and I'm stoked to try them out. A cast timer for simply putting on GB and WM hurt DPS alot. I'm glad I can have it in my rotation.

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Yeah, if you get a bad case of RNG then you'll be less mobile, but most fights are fairly forgiving. I think the biggest drought I had was four casts, but I also had times when it procced multiple times in a row. I may lose two or three casts a fight, but in the long run, the extra damage GB provides far outweighs that. And if you're good at slide casting and know the time it takes for an AoE to go off, you may even be able to save a cast or two that would be interrupted otherwise.

I haven't been able to test out myself because PSN is a PoS, but how are the potency changes effecting DPS outputs with the WM/GB 10% buff? I haven't checked BRD abilities but I saw that Gauss Cannon went from a potency of 200 to 180 and ricochet went from 300 to 200.

Stance dancing is my way to play and its nice having it back since I mostly played with that since getting gb way back.
full on gb all the time just does not feel right with casting and lack of auto attacks. its seriously the case of go be a smn/blm. but since stance dancing is back I don't have much problems beat a blm from time to time farming alex this morning.

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Originally Posted by Thunda51

I haven't been able to test out myself because PSN is a PoS, but how are the potency changes effecting DPS outputs with the WM/GB 10% buff? I haven't checked BRD abilities but I saw that Gauss Cannon went from a potency of 200 to 180 and ricochet went from 300 to 200.

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Just so people will know, because i don't think they realize, the potency listed is actually different from what it is when you factor in the Minuet/Gauss damage boosts.

Gauss Old:
Gauss Round = 200 x 1.2 = 240 potency
Ricochet AoE = 300 x 1.2 = 360 potency (480 total, factoring in the initial hit)

Gauss New:
Gauss Round = 180 x 1.3 = 234 potency
Ricochet AoE = 200 x 1.3 = 260 potency (390 total, factoring in the initial hit)


Minuet Old
Empyreal Arrow = 240 potency x 1.2 = 288 potency
Sidewinder = 350 potency x 1.2 = 420 potency

Minuet New
Empyreal Arrow = 220 potency x 1.3 = 286 potency
Sidewinder = 250 potency x 1.3 = 325 potency



The nerf to the first ability isn't really much of a nerf, it's simply there to prevent its damage from actually being 10% stronger than it was before. It's more or less unchanged from its original damage.

So to be clear, Empyreal and Gauss Round didn't really get buffed or nerfed, it's more or less unchanged. You probably couldn't tell it changed without the patch notes.

The burst ability nerf (Sidewinder and Ricochet) actually is a nerf, but that's to offset the actual 10% you're getting from everything else to prevent a huge DPS spike.

Neither of the 100 potency nerfs were actually that, they're ever so slightly lower than 100.

Actually, when multiplied with Increased Action Damage, GB gives a 36% increase.

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Originally Posted by ChloeGrace

Get rid of Wanderer's / Gauss completely.
Give us back our mobility.

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Nope /10char

My feelings about WM right now are that it feels clunky and it just isn't fun to play (I realise both are subjective)

I don't find the issue is the lack of mobility, that I am perfectly fine with. It's the cast times hampering the ability to weave oGCDs that I really dislike.

Now that we can only slot in 1 in between each GCD, it feels like there is always something waiting on oGCD. So instead of being able to watch the fight, I have to constantly watch my hotbars. Granted with time this will improve as at the moment it's such a vast change in muscle memory, but it just feels clunky/inefficient right now.

I feel like a compromise with the community would have been to remove the cast times on WM but have the damage boost be tied to your movement. Either have it gradually build up over time/GCD usage whilst stationary and reset back to 1 if you move (For example: 1 stack = 10%, 2 stacks = 20%, 3 stacks = 30% - Build 1 stack every 2 GCD's you use without moving). Or have the WM buff remove itself when you move forcing you to reapply which would force downtime due to the recast time (increase recast time if you have to).

That way BRDs still fundamentally plays the same as before but would still be punished when they have to move. Whereas with how it is now you have a drastic playstyle change for BRDs which will make a number of them unhappy (The common phrase that will be thrown around is that if we wanted to play casters we'd have levelled BLM)

It will be interesting to see how the numbers work out now. While i understand cutting pack on potency due to the buff on the stance, at the same time we were behind by a long shot already....I fail to understand how 100 potency on a single attack is going to matter much. 10% increase on someone doing 900 dps is....990 dps. not a huge buff (I'm going on some rough numbers I've seen people bring up on the forums). So I don't see why they had to kill one of our big shooters. But we'll see how the damage turns out.

I feel breaking down into exactly what is required of us shows how unmanageable it is right now / why Bards are unhappy and not finding it fun

Ideally we have keep the following oGCD's on cooldown

1. Bloodletter (15 Secs / Proc Resets)
2. Blunt Arrow (30 Secs)
3. Repelling Shot (30 Secs / WM makes this hard to keep on CD)
4. Sidewinder (60 Secs)
5. Internal Release (60 Secs)
6. Flaming Arrow (60 Secs)
7. Blood for Blood (80 Secs)
8. Hawkeye (90 Secs)
9. Barrage (90 Secs)
10. Raging Strikes (120 Secs)
11. Misery's End (12 Secs when applicable)

Then you have to worry about keeping up / on top of the following GCDs

1. Straight Shot (20 Secs)
2. DoTs / Iron Jaw (18 Secs)
3. Empyreal Arrow on CD (15 Secs / Ideally needs to line up with Barrage)

Being able to only weave one of them in between each shot makes keeping on top of all that an impossible task. It works for mages because they don't have anywhere near as many oGCDs to keep on top of.

There isn't really a rotation right now, it's just an unmanageable nightmare with mad flailing towards whatever is up at any given time. It was being able use 2 between each GCD that made it manageable as Bloodletter resets weren't problematic and keeping buff recasts lined up was a lot easier.

That of course does not even factor in any sort of singing or movement. Although movement actually allows you to get back on top of your oGCDs during WM which is a mindscrew in itself.


As I said in my earlier post the solution is ideally to remove the cast times and penalize movement in a different way. Or if they allowed BRD to fire off oGCDs whilst casting that would also fix the problem.

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Originally Posted by MrYaah

The rotation is still unhealthy since the rng ogcd procs from bl cant be planned for or compansated for by dropping minuet.

Opener cant be effectively done with minuet on but this is compensated for by the insta cast minuet where you can open without then turn it on which is nice.

The dps buff looks nice on paper but its really not what I was looking for, I think they need to rework the design of minuet to work better with bloodletter. Thats really my only complaint. Right now the constant stream of random ogcds completely fucks any chance of a rotation by bard and you're forced to either delay your bls, delay and misalign your buffs, or delay your gcds and clip your dots earlier (and in some situations if you fuck you this will make you drop your dots) and its really unsatisfying.

ATM bard is still broken, its not dps or mobility thats the problem, its the lack of a real consistent rotation and the prevalence of lose lose situations.

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My thoughts exactly.

In good groups with decent kill times I've seen BRD/MCH doing respectable DPS and even trailing SMN by a little. However the prevalence of OGCD problems still forces players of this job to consistently make lose-lose choices. 2 of my FC's BRDs have already moved on to MCH for the better fluidity in gameplay.

In any case since you have mentioned about opener without WM followed by WM, I've noticed that opener without WM you are likely to lose about 100+ DPS head start, not sure if will be recommendable.

I personally need to test MCH more but at present I am satisfied with it on the DPS end of things. It's decent if played to it's max potential, but no where near DRG/MONK/NIN- which I think is fair.


Dismantle and rend mind however need buffs.

Just doing some quick math, we have to use an oGCD between ~55% of our GCD's with WM up. 75% if Miserys End is in play. Bloodletter resets are then on top of that.

That doesn't factor in if we have sing, move, attempt to line up buffs or if the mob becomes untargetable.

It's not hard to see why BRD suddenly feels extremely frantic and a nightmare to keep on top of everything.

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Originally Posted by Kaith

Just doing some quick math, we have to use an oGCD between ~55% of our GCD's with WM up. 75% if Miserys End is in play. Bloodletter resets are then on top of that.

That doesn't factor in if we have sing, move, attempt to line up buffs or if the mob becomes untargetable.

It's not hard to see why BRD suddenly feels extremely frantic and a nightmare to keep on top of everything.

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This however will distinguish the good bards from the bad ones in a very clear way.

So if you're confident with the class, which only comes with time/experience, you WILL outshine the other bards and stand out as an invaluable team member.

Just like a talented healer is invaluable, a well played Bard will be considered irreplaceable.


I think this is a good thing for those who main bard.

I think it make sense that (in reality) when you shoot an arrow you need to focus, not running like a cockroach.

So here you kinda shoot harder when you stand still, and do less damage when you run.

Instead of whining about losing mobility, I think SE should've done this long time ago.

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Originally Posted by Beer5020

I think it make sense that (in reality) when you shoot an arrow you need to focus, not running like a cockroach.

So here you kinda shoot harder when you stand still, and do less damage when you run.

Instead of whining about losing mobility, I think SE should've done this long time ago.

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You've obviously never heard of Lars Andersen

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEG-ly9tQGk

Shooting arrows while spinning and jumping around is RL Canon

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Originally Posted by TrailArnizay

You've obviously never heard of Lars Andersen

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEG-ly9tQGk

Shooting arrows while spinning and jumping around is RL Canon

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lol, and later he became Hawkeye.

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Originally Posted by SovereignAegis

I think this is a good thing for those who main bard.

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I don't see how it's a good thing at all.

In roulettes or random groups, it doesn't matter if you stand out or not, because you're not going to be irreplaceable to a random group that may not even be from your server.
In premades, it doesn't matter what other Bards do because presumably your group will already know what you're capable of.

On the other side, if bad bards stick out more and look worse, then that enforces a stigma for the entire class among people who don't see the good bards.
Additionally, if bad bards get worse, that just means the rest of the group in a roulette has to suffer because of it.

WOW. That is impressive.

I for one is very happy with the changes, no longer am I struggling to keep up on the aggro list, and though the potency for two of skills were decreased the 10% boost to WM now making it a 30% boost overall greatly makes up for the lost. People are complaining about the lost mobility , and maybe its me but I fail to see this "Lost of mobility" I run around just fine and avoid AoEs and still prance around like a mad man even when I'm under the effect of this stance. I like the strategic element this stance brings to our class. Guys were still BRDs we just have an optional stance its not for every situation thus why it is "situational at best" and thus why you toggle in and out of this stance as you see fit. (This was especially made easier with the cast time now instant). This skill is now a main part of our class, so don't expect The Dev team to just remove all their hard Work because people are complaining that we can't move when we can. Our cast time is now where as long as a BLM.

I have played a little bit with the new Gauss Barrel yesterday... In expert roulette, AoE damage was... awesome. Huge improvement on that, it was incredible.
On solo target dps, i've been "stance switching", and dps was overall better than before the patch, whatever I did. Now, just need to figure out the best way to handle GB... I guess it might be full GB, and switch it off during avoid/movement phase to keep dpsing while blm/smn just move and spam low potency spells. AH !