First i just want to say, that I respect the Specialization system developed by Kurokikaze in the other thread. I think it has a lot of merit and I would not be disappointed to play a game w that system.
My major issue (if u can call it that) with a specialization system, is that it feels too much like other MMO systems, when Final Fantasy already has a great system that it can turn to that exists in its only franchise. With that i present:
FFT style system in FFXIV
So currently, there is a large amount of people that have put forth ideas about a new job/class system in FFXIV. A heavily favoured one that is currently being discussed is the Specialization system, which would allow players to level “basic” jobs/classes (the one currently available to players) and then undergo quests that would allow them to make available talent trees (or pools/orbs/grids/etc) to specialize into an “advanced” job.
While these systems are well thought-out and impressive, I think there is a major flaw in them. In that,
a) players lose the ability to keep leveling their “basis” job without the use of an advanced job, i.e. players can no longer realistically level GLD or CON, they must become GLD/PLD or GLD/DRK and CON/WHM or CON/BLM. While this is not really a flaw, it does limit the way players can play, which is against the spirit of FF games in general.
b) Basic classes are not longer jobs, they become obstacles. They are things a player “has” to deal with for 10, 20, or 30 levels until they can become their “real” jobs/classes. Just like walking somewhere can be seen as an “obstacle” for lower level players before they can gain access to “mounts”, the basic jobs become “obstacles” before the player can gain access to the “real” jobs/classes.
How will a FFT system work in FFXIV?
Currently, FFXIV has two leveling systems in place; Physical level and Class level. For a FFT system to work, unfortunately, physical level will have to be erased. As it stands, the physical level, in my opinion, is unnecessary and burdensome. The stat customization system has made stats fairly unnecessary, to the point where they don’t matter and the elemental system can be incorporated into the class level system.
The armoury/class system will have to be altered slightly to work with the new system, but the changes will be mostly cosmetic. Classes/Jobs will have to be limited to only 1 weapon type, unlike currently, where some classes/jobs have more than one type available, i.e. GLD has longsword, short sword, and dagger. In the new system GLD will be limited to the gladius (or short-sword) type weapons.
The current action/trait equipping and point system will also be able to stay, though some major changes to the affinity system will have to take place, as will the number and variety of skills available to each class/job, as many of the skills currently available will be better suited to some of the new “advanced” classes. New skills and traits will need to be developed for the basic classes as replacements.
In essence how the FFT system would work is fairly simple but allows for much complexity and player choice. Players start with 7 available classes/jobs: the ones currently available under the DoM and DoW titles, GLD, MRD, THM, CON, LNC, ARC, and PUG (in this discussion I am limiting myself to just the DoM and DoW jobs, but it can easily be expanded to include the DoL and DoH jobs as well, such as DRG needing LNC and the future job Shepard or Chemist needing Archer and Alchemy etc). These classes/jobs can be titled “basic” but they will be as full-fledged and viable as the more “advanced” jobs.
When players gain a pre-set level and combination of the basic jobs, they make available quests to unlock new jobs/class options. The combination and level will obviously depend on the job and current system. Due to the fact that the combination of factors will differ from job to job, I believe it will be easier for the target mechanism to be an XP target displayed in levels. To illustrate, for a player to unlock the MNK job/class, they will have to level their PUG to level 30 only, while a player wanting to unlock PLD will have to level their GLD to 20 and their CON to 20. These targets should aim to be relatively identical in XP value (obviously the numbers given above are made up and will need to be examined more closely to be set in stone). The goal is to make the advanced jobs require relatively identical amounts of time and effort to make available.
After the player has undergone the task of completing the quest, the new job is treated exactly like the basic jobs when the player started. The jobs are set to level one and the player must level them individually.
So some examples of classes that can be made available:
GLD + CON = PLD
GLD + MRD = Berserker
PUG + LNC = THF
MRD + ARC = Pirate
THM + CON = RDM
But also, there can be classes made available from only single class:
PUG @# rank = MNK
ARC @# rank = RNG
LNC @# rank = DRG
Again, these are just ideas for the combinations, the actual classes/ranks that are needed could be anything; it’s the beauty of this system, an almost limitless (in theory anyways) combination of ranks and classes/jobs to create more classes/jobs.
One side note, to help explain how some “advanced” jobs need only 1 job to unlock and others may need 2 or 3. For this to work and yet stay fair for the players, it would have to work something like this. For example (again numbers are just made up to illustrate my point, not set in stone) PLD needs ranks in CON and GLD but MNK only needs ranks in PUG. To make it fair MNK would need rank 30 in PUG (which takes 40k xp {again, numbers are made up}) so PLD needs rank 20 in GLD (20k xp) and CON (20k xp). So in the end, player #1 who wanted MNK and player #2 who wanted PLD needed to put in the same amount of work (getting 40k xp) but they had to do it in different ways.
Actions/Traits
Currently, FFXIV has an action/trait system that allows players to equip different skills from different jobs. This system could be transferred to the FFT style system with some changes to the affinity mechanic.
Jobs that are interconnected would result in having higher affinities to skills than to jobs they are not connected too. Confusing? Ok, lets use an example to illustrate this principle.
Say a job has 100 affinity to skills of their own (i.e. GLD has 100 affinity to their own skills). Say a job has 50 affinity to skills that are not their own (i.e. GLD has 50 affinity to skills from CON). Now say person #1 levels unlocks PLD, which requires GLD and CON, so it is connected to GLD and CON. When player #1 plays as a PLD, he has the following affinity:
100 affinity to PLD abilities
75 affinity to GLD and CON abilities
50 affinity to abilities from another job/class. (Again, before trolls come rampaging, these numbers are just made up to use as an example, the actual values will need to be tested).
Now, you may ask, what about if player #1 wants to play as GLD? He would have the following affinity:
100 affinity to GLD abilities
75 affinity to PLD abilities (and say Berserker if he had unlocked it and leveled it)
50 affinity to CON and all others jobs/classes
So by connected, this system would mean a direct connection, not an indirect connection, as seen with the GLD. GLD is indirectly connected to CON by PLD, but it has no affect on affinity.
Why set affinity up like this? To help keep the flavour of each job. What’s the point of playing as a PLD, if as a GLD I can use all the PLD abilities equally as well? Not only that, it also helps let players keep some of the customization that was intended in the Armoury system.
Now my PLD isn’t limited to just being a tank, I could load up on CON abilities and play him as a healer who can deal some melee damage or load him up w GLD abilities to make him more a DD with some back-up healing. Obviously, some skills and traits will be restricted to being equipped only as the main job/class. Some of the GLD skill will only be available if I’m playing a GLD. And some skills will be completely locked off in specific combinations; so no Fire, Thunder from CON as a PLD. Locking out these abilities will not be that hard, as most magic in the game already belongs to an element, it would be easy to say PLD can only use magic that belongs to the white magic element (cant remember if its astral or umbral).
(silly character limit, pro/con on next post)
[dev 1032] Alternative to Specialization, a FFT based system
Printable View
-
03-11-2011, 01:27 PMAzure_Heaven[dev 1032] Alternative to Specialization, a FFT based system
-
03-11-2011, 01:27 PMAzure_Heaven
So how is the FFT style system different from the specialization system?
The FFT system has pros and cons like any other system would have, no system will work perfectly; people will find things they like and dislike about anything man-made. No system will be able to incorporate everything and make everyone happy.
Pros
-the “basic” classes/jobs are still viable choices; they are not longer just paths to some other end, they are an end in-and-of-themselves. At level 50 or 60 or 70, people will not just be GLD/PLD or GLD/DRK but will be either GLD or PLD or DRK (or all 3 if they want to level them all high).
For instance, PLD uses a block mechanic to tank and self heals using mana, while GLD uses a Parry mechanic and group buffs using CDs. So both are tanks, but do it in different ways and therefore have different flavours to them.
-Opens up more lore/player opportunities for the classes/jobs. With a specialization system, GLD are forced to become “holy warriors” or “dark warriors” (over-generalization of course). The quests and lore for the various “advanced” jobs can use the fact that players combine certain aspects from the basic classes to enter new frontiers of adventuring and form new ways of fighting. Which sounds better, a GLD who decides to suddenly become good or evil, or a character who realizes that he can enhance his fighting abilities with his sword and shield by adding elements of white magic to better protect his friends?
-Future proofs the game for new jobs in later expansions. There is no reason that later expansions can open “advanced advanced” jobs that require the player to have combinations of advanced jobs to open, i.e. in some future expansion, SE could release Star Mage, which requires ranks in BLM, RDM and time mage (all of which require their only ranks to be available.) This gives the games new branches and avenues of lore for future updates, i.e. some NPC is forced to defend a hamlet and accidentally combines two types of magic never tried before and opens a new element of magic or something.
Cons
- It requires a lot of revamp and expansion of the current game system, which in turn requires a lot of play-testing and trial and error. This will require a great commitment by the SE staff but also by the players to stand by while the staff works on the elements needed to implement this system.
-it would require a 180 on some of the lore and current understanding of the disciplines we currently have in game. The current jobs/classes we have will need to be redefined and given more specific roles, which eliminates some of the beauty and customization in the Armoury system.
I am sure there is a lot of stuff i have missed or not explained clearly, so please make comments and criticism so i can improve on it. I want FFXIV to be the great game i kno it can be, so if this thread in some minuscule way ends up helping that along, then it is more than worth the effort -
03-11-2011, 01:50 PMKimahri
I like where you're going with this. You thought this out and are trying to come up with an alternative to a better classification system. The only thing I see is that is a hell of a lot of Advanced Ranks. I mean, are you saying you can combine Gladiator with any other class to make a completely new one? If so we're looking at one hell of a list of Advanced Ranks.
It's some damn good thinking, though. Let me make a suggestion to you. Someone made a thread relating to this. What if you can take Gladiator and turn him into either one of two advanced ranks? What I'm trying to say is let's say you get Gladiator to Rank 30. You get a quest that either let's him go down the holy path of a Paladin, or the destructive path of a Dark Knight. You could even stay as Gladiator. That to me seems like a pretty good solution, too. -
03-11-2011, 02:00 PMTibian
I wholeheartedly agree with this system of classes. Not only does it fix the terrible class system we have now, but it also returns it to traditional FF classes and allows a VAST range of improvement on the classes.
I've wanted a FFT: Online forever, I simply wish that they will follow this and make it happen.
Good post. ;) -
03-11-2011, 02:05 PMAzure_HeavenSorry if u misunderstood me, i didnt mean there should be limitless possibilities or that it was practically possible, i was just saying that it leaves the development team a wide range of area they can play with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimahri
In practice, i would imagine there only being 2-3 advanced classes for every basic (ie, GLD would unlock, in part, PLD and Berserker and maybe one). Yes, the system does make a lot of theoritical room for classes, but there is no need for SE to implement them all at once or even at all -
03-11-2011, 02:20 PMKimahri
Nah. I still think that Gladiator's choices just seem a bit better as Paladin or Dark Knight. Marauder should turn into the Berserker......I want my Samurai so I'm not sure where the hell that'll fit in the categories, though....
-
03-11-2011, 02:29 PMAzure_HeavenWhile i disagree w that, MRD seems more DRK to me than GLD, the actual combos dont really matter so much. Its the principles of the system that matter the most.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimahri
-
03-11-2011, 02:39 PMDyvid
Don't want to have classes tied together just for the sake of calling it something. I would rather equip a katana to become a Ninja than have to level GLA to 30, PUG to 20, and CON to 15.
-
03-11-2011, 02:41 PMShampooo
i kinda thought this was how they were gonna do the game and we would have to "discover" how to unlock new advance classes, but alas, i was wrong lol.
-
03-11-2011, 02:44 PMKimahri
At any rate, Azure_Heaven. Having your base rank being able to become either of two jobs seems logical.
-
03-11-2011, 02:45 PMKurokikaze
While you say that my proposal makes the current classes "obstacles" or "road blocks" this tactics system essentially does that. Why should someone need to level 2 other things to do something they want? You're imposing an arbitrary road block yourself - but the mentality around here is that since its from FF Tactics its totally ok and everyone gets a hard-on seeing it mentioned.
Also, isn't that a little too grindy for non-FF players? You need to think about these things more. The people on these forums aren't going to be the target audience in the long run. -
03-11-2011, 02:54 PMAmsai
No thanks. I like the talent tree idea with a FF spin better.
-
03-11-2011, 02:58 PMKimahriThat was the point I was trying to get at, Kurokikaze. (Man I see your ass in a lot of posts. Haha!) I wouldn't see an objection to leveling a certain Class, like Marauder, to 25(20, 25, 30....Whichever your preference.) and being able to hence forth choose between Marauder or one(or two) advance(d) classes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurokikaze
-
03-11-2011, 03:08 PMAzure_HeavenThe armoury system would not change, so u would have to equip the right weapon to be that class, the quest would be for the ability to equip that weaponQuote:
Originally Posted by Dyvid
So for example, u can only equip the GLD, MRD, LNC, ARC, PUG, CON and THM weapon at lvl 1, and the quests for the "advanced" classes would be to allow u to equip the weapon and therefore level the class etc -
03-11-2011, 03:11 PMKimahri
If I'm wrong, tell me, but this is starting to sound JUST like FFXI. I mean.....You had to level a job to 30 to gain access to a quest(some you had to get fame as well) just to unlock a job....That's just basically slapping a new skin on an already used approach. Don't get me wrong. I like XI, but we don't have to copy it that bad.
-
03-11-2011, 03:15 PMAzure_HeavenSorry, i dont think that section was as clear as i wanted it to be. It your system it felt like GLD or MRD was nothing but a thing u used to get to PLD or DRK. In my system i want GLD and MRD to be their own defined classes, that bring something to the game beyond just a bland piece of paper to make what you really want on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurokikaze
And whats the difference if i have to level 2 jobs for 40k xp total than levelings 1 job for 40k xp? You still need 40k xp. It is no more grindy in either way. It just makes more lore sense no?
ie How does a GLD, from a lore stand point, suddenly start casting Cure spells and stuff, when all he has done is practice his swordplay? (which in game play is the GLD getting 40k xp or getting 20k xp as GLD and 20k xp from CON) -
03-11-2011, 03:15 PMKurokikaze
I left this out: you're introducing new classes, for the sake of introducing new classes, while not addressing the problems with the current ones.
-
03-11-2011, 03:20 PMKimahri
Go read my thread, Kurokikaze: Remembrance of Old; A Galka's Tale of Character Uniqueness. Should find it on my posts profile. It covered a possible solution.
-
03-11-2011, 03:20 PMAzure_HeavenIt does have some resemblance to FFXI but not as muchQuote:
Originally Posted by Kimahri
Bc w the FFT style system, you will have more classes you can select skills from than just 1 subjob
For example, with PLD you have access to all PLD skills at full affinity, access to GLD and CON skill at 70 affinity and all skills at 50 affinity -
03-11-2011, 03:26 PMKurokikazeAnswer 1:Quote:
Originally Posted by Azure_Heaven
I don't see that being an option just based on what was said by Yoshi-P. In his example there were two choices:
1. Linear progression: Gladiator will turn into Paladin.
2. Specialization: Final Fantasy classes as specializations for the current classes.
In neither of these options could you keep the current classes competitive as a standalone class.
Answer 2:
The difference is an extra 40k exp that people have to grind to get back to the point they were at; as their preferred class. All because you made them level two other classes to get there.
Answer 3:
Lore is story - they make that up as they go. Gladiators in the guild could call you up and say "Hey, we've thought of a way to mix conjury with swordplay and would like to blah blah blah blah." - I'm clearly not a scenario writer... Anyways you don't have to try to make sense out of it through mechanics and excessive grinding just to satisfy lore.
Whats going to happen to that Conjurer after the fact? Am I going to need to grind it more to further my PLD and get higher level cures? More roadblocks? Yes I said it. -
03-11-2011, 03:36 PMXeona
I enjoy this idea very much.
Kurokikaze has a great idea as well.
I however enjoy (idea wise) not having to respec as Kurokikaze's idea works, if I wanted to play the other job.
Anyone in this game as well as in XI was able to choose which job to play whenever they wanted. Granted you had to have certain jobs unlocked, once you unlocked them you could choose what to play. All you had to do mostly was change some or all gear out.
The method expressed in this topic seems to have an advantage in that one doesn't "lose" the "basic" job in effort to get the more "advanced".
The affinity reference makes sense. It keeps the system of being able to equip other jobs abilities but has a built in feature of balancing them at the same time.
----------------------------------------
Aside from unlocking extra jobs, we could just simply gain access to more jobs in patches or expansions. With either idea proposed by this thread or Kurokikaze's, one has to spend some time playing in order to get the other jobs. This is a built in benefit in order to "train" players at least some sort of skill set before they get to more advanced jobs.
---------------------------------------
Either way, or a different way if the devs so choose, we will have to see additions to weapons if that is going to remain the way in which we choose our job. -
03-11-2011, 04:13 PMAzure_HeavenAnswer to answer 1Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurokikaze
I dont think 1. is actually exactly what he said, just ur interpretation, as i remember the quote he was rather vague.
Answer to answer 2
So you think bc i lvled GLD to 20 and CON to 20 my PLD should be 20? by that logic everyone who levels 1 class to 50 should have all classes to 50. Hell, why not just create a character maxed level for everyone?
I dont seem to understand why it would be so bad for the player to have to lvl their new unlocked class from 1 to max?
Answer to answer 3
No, the lore doesnt have to make sense. But why even write it if it doesnt make sense? Why even have it for that matter? I dont know about you, and each person is different, but I like the lore of a game. I like the lore to be believeable (or as believeable as it can be). Having a GLD suddenly back to cast spells, that other ppl have to train for just doesnt float for me. But that is just a personal thing i guess.
And i dont get ur last comment, why cant PLD just get Cure spells as they level? Why does the Cure series of spells have to be only limited to CON? -
03-11-2011, 04:24 PMKurokikaze
Answer 1:
This is your proposal - so using what is bold here explain to me how it is possible to be interpreted any other way than how I mentioned.Quote:
Yoshida-san is between two possible plans at this time. The first idea is that the traditional names would be introduced as “higher” or “advanced” classes. The traditional classes would thus be something of a goal for players. The second idea is that the traditional names would be more of a subset or specialization within the existing classes.
Answer 2:
No, I'm just telling you that you're making people grind excessively for no reason. Again, if you can accurately explain the answer for #1 in how you interpret it then you can prove that the classes will co-exist with the new classes. In the end that doesn't change my point.
Answer 3:
The lore has to make sense to be just that. I'm telling you that you don't use mechanics and excessive grinding to in the name of making it go with the lore. You do that through good storytelling which is what SE is good at.
Because you made me grind it in the first place. It should have a purpose besides your shitty attempt at a story. The fact that you're asking that means it was just another unnecessary roadblock. lol