It´s all fun and games until the content gets hard

I was quite pleased with the experience in dungeons and primal fights for the story. People played "okay" and the crying was really low. After gearing myself up in Darklight stuff and joining a few Bismarck EX groups it seems like that is over.
As a tank myself I could at least steer the party a little bit in the right direction, but with 7 other endgame geared "experts" it´s something else since everyone is "Pro".
As the wiping starts, so does the "Learn to play newb". People arguing to the left and right instead of actually trying to get some practice and in the end nothing gets killed.

Actually I had the naive idea people in the party finder (from the same server after all) would behave differently, since they aren´t totally anonym anymore but it´s the same like back in the old Titan Duty finder days for the relic weapon. After all I don´t get why they don´t add this stuff to the Duty finder directly? At least I wouldn´t have to wait for a new party 20mins or more since the last one broke up after 2 wipes.


(I know: Get a static, but sometimes this isn´t so easy).

"Top tier" content isn't added to Duty Finder immediately. It's a tradition at this point - primals take about a patch to be put in DF; coil takes a couple patches.

The reason for this has to do with the Japanese attitudes towards a Party Finder vs Duty Finder system. In NA it's expected you use DF to learn, but it's the opposite way around out there - you're expected to use Party Finder to learn, and when you go into Duty Finder it's expected you know what to do because you're all there to clear it. The pattern of not adding DF for content is reflective of that.

I did Bismarck EX on the 10th try, with a random Party Finder team . . . As a DrK offtank.

It's all about the dps checks mate. Welp, and not fucking on the Provoke swap when needed.

I don't know, watch a vid? The hardest part about Bismarck EX is finding people who don't do terrible dps (I was almost at the same level as some of the lowest dps lol, despite being in tank stance half the time)

Bismarck EX is really newb friendly compared to ravana ex

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Originally Posted by Asmodaeus

People played "okay" and the crying was really low. After gearing myself up in Darklight stuff and joining a few Bismarck EX groups it seems like that is over.

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So, you were wearing i70 on a trial that requires i150+ for a clear? I'm actually surprised you didn't get kicked on sight.

Bismark Ex has lowered my faith in humanity.

It is literally a giant DPS check and as a healer main I honestly have been driven insane. 50 runs with at least 20 different groups and not a single clear.

Ravana honestly looks like a piece of frigging cake because that has more dependency on me and less on DPS. Bismark is 100% DPS and I can solo heal that crap but lo and behold even if I do we somehow manage to not get past DPScheck EX

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Originally Posted by SovereignAegis

Bismark Ex has lowered my faith in humanity.

It is literally a giant DPS check and as a healer main I honestly have been driven insane. 50 runs with at least 20 different groups and not a single clear.

Ravana honestly looks like a piece of frigging cake because that has more dependency on me and less on DPS. Bismark is 100% DPS and I can solo heal that crap but lo and behold even if I do we somehow manage to not get past DPScheck EX

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Well if those players ever want to see hive weapons, maybe they will step their game up. Prob not though, they just whine until 20% echo gets added :(

Most bad DPS I've encountered seem to have no idea how bad they are or even that they need significant improvement. On top of that, criticizing people's gameplay, even in the most helpfully-couched terms, is a sure-fire way to shift focus from the objective to blaming and shaming.

Perhaps players will start to realize that what's even more toxic than the potential abuse of parsing data is the situation where, aside from very obvious tells, it's difficult to identify who needs to improve and to what degree. It's much harder to argue against data (especially if you see it with your own eyes) than it is to argue against someone simply telling you that you're the problem or that you need to try harder.

itt: tanks and healers like tank and heal check fights more than dps check fights. I'm shocked :^P

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

Most bad DPS I've encountered seem to have no idea how bad they are or even that they need significant improvement. On top of that, criticizing people's gameplay, even in the most helpfully-couched terms, is a sure-fire way to shift focus from the objective to blaming and shaming.

Perhaps players will start to realize that what's even more toxic than the potential abuse of parsing data is the situation where, aside from very obvious tells, it's difficult to identify who needs to improve and to what degree. It's much harder to argue against data (especially if you see it with your own eyes) than it is to argue against someone simply telling you that you're the problem or that you need to try harder.

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If your a dps and your failing dps checks you might want to try to improve anyways. Even if it's not you.

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Originally Posted by Asmodaeus

After gearing myself up in Darklight stuff and joining a few Bismarck EX groups it seems like that is over.

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I don't think you mean Darklight gear. That would be the level 50 gear which is actually lower than even the old mythology gear we had from day one (item level 70). There's simply no way to meet the minimum item level requirements by wearing it.

Of course, if somehow you could... well, you'd suck. I mean, even item level 130 is pretty rubbish at 60 and that was considered some of the best gear possible only a few weeks ago.

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Originally Posted by Malevicton

itt: tanks and healers like tank and heal check fights more than dps check fights. I'm shocked :^P

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Yeah but it IS the DPS's fault, we do not wipe on heals unless they stand in the middle of all the things- I have actually healed off that mindyou...

It makes me feel helpless.

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Originally Posted by Whocareswhatmynameis

Well if those players ever want to see hive weapons, maybe they will step their game up. Prob not though, they just whine until 20% echo gets added :(

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The sad thing is it is keeping people like me from getting it, where I know my damn job and do it well. Drives me bonkers.

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Originally Posted by Whocareswhatmynameis

If your a dps and your failing dps checks you might want to try to improve anyways. Even if it's not you.

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Very true, but I don't think most players think that way. They generally want to believe that they are doing fine (it's others who are holding them back) unless they reach the conclusion that they could actually be doing something better.

I just find it more productive if they have this epiphany more or less of their own accord (e.g. "Wow, my numbers aren't enough to let us clear") rather than if they must be dragged, kicking and screaming, to it.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

I don't think you mean Darklight gear. That would be the level 50 gear which is actually lower than even the old mythology gear we had from day one (item level 70). There's simply no way to meet the minimum item level requirements by wearing it.

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Yes you are right. I meant the ilvl 170 sister gear :).

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

I don't think you mean Darklight gear. That would be the level 50 gear which is actually lower than even the old mythology gear we had from day one (item level 70). There's simply no way to meet the minimum item level requirements by wearing it.

Of course, if somehow you could... well, you'd suck. I mean, even item level 130 is pretty rubbish at 60 and that was considered some of the best gear possible only a few weeks ago.

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it fills the same role, as a stepping stone to eventual tome gear. it's 2.0 all over again.


and that's simply how endgame in most situations (besides a few static groups) is OP. if it's primals, raids, or anything done by a PuG group, people are going to be guzzling morton's like it's nobody's business. people are too quick to play the blame game instead of actually playing the game. instead of realizing their own mistakes and problems, they go and try to take it out on others.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

Very true, but I don't think most players think that way. They generally want to believe that they are doing fine

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Sadly I encountered that in almost any BismarkEX group the last few days. I don´t use a parser but as expected in that kind of content some people do and after failing the first phase again and again I´ve read a lot that people hover in the 200 - 300 dps range (with almost full ilvl170 gear). Then they defend themself with "I give everything (it seemed they were not even aware that there are parser out in the wild and other people could read how bad they are)".

And the more people you need for something the higher the chance you get some black sheeps.

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Originally Posted by Asmodaeus

I was quite pleased with the experience in dungeons and primal fights for the story. People played "okay" and the crying was really low. After gearing myself up in Darklight stuff and joining a few Bismarck EX groups it seems like that is over.
As a tank myself I could at least steer the party a little bit in the right direction, but with 7 other endgame geared "experts" it´s something else since everyone is "Pro".

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Wait, what?

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Originally Posted by Issac

Wait, what?

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I already said I meant the ilvl170 equivalent. Do you really think someone would wear ilvl70 armor, join lvl 60 endgame stuff and complain about bad people?





Yes .... it´s possible I guess.

Context and common sense, people. Law gear is 3.0's version of 2.0's darklight (philosophy) gear. It's the minimum viable gear set purchased with the first set of tomestones earned in the major version lifecycle. Everyone calls it the new darklight set. Stop pretending it's the old i70 stuff, you know better.

There are a ton of bad dps in this game but I place a large blame for this on square and their complete negligence in adding a personal dps meter into the game. Being able to see your own dps would be a huge step in making for a better overall performing pool of dps in this game.

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Originally Posted by Dante_V

There are a ton of bad dps in this game but I place a large blame for this on square and their complete negligence in adding a personal dps meter into the game. Being able to see your own dps would be a huge step in making for a better overall performing pool of dps in this game.

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I don´t think that would help. Bad people will be bad, no matter if they see a number and good people will still be good (because they actually research mechanis and gear properly). If you would be the only one who could see your DPS why would you shout into the party chat "I am doing 300 DPS, it´s not my fault we wipe". They would be quiet and that´s it. Sure, there might be a few exceptions but I am quite sure they would be the minority.

What could help would be some sort of solo trial before you would be allowed to join stuff like BismarkEX. Instead of ilvl requirments (ilvl means zero about being good, but somehow developers forget that) you must complete a quest where you have to put out at least 600 DPS on a dummy over 2 minutes (or something like that). Tanks and healers would need something different, but I think my idea is clear.

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Originally Posted by dark494

Context and common sense, people. Law gear is 3.0's version of 2.0's darklight (philosophy) gear. It's the minimum viable gear set purchased with the first set of tomestones earned in the major version lifecycle. Everyone calls it the new darklight set. Stop pretending it's the old i70 stuff, you know better.

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Then they should get the name right and not call it something that is from before expansion.

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Originally Posted by Cakekizy

Then they should get the name right and not call it something that is from before expansion.

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why shouldn't we? other than looks they exist to fill identical roles (a stepping stone for people going into raids/gearing with mythology/esoterics), and have a dark color scheme.

the main thing different is tanks don't get a bloody tin-can for a chest piece.

I don't think I've ever referred to it as Darklight gear by name. It's a comparable step but they have their own name.

I'll usually call it whatever ilvl it is or perhaps currency or dungeon it comes from.

Because while everyone might know what Darklight is, not everyone thinks "first tome gear for 3.0", or even know Darklight was tome gear if thy started playing after it was phased out from there. Plus Doman takes less time to say.

As for Bis Ex...I'm still trying to clear myself and I believe my Dps is fine itself (at the very least one snakes the one I've spent the most time on tends to be the one either lowest down or dead in comparison to the other.)...and funnily enough the usually problems after that are the people assigned to DKs consintently not hitting them, and sometimes even the Generator person in first phase. Which is usually but not always a healer. Kinda frustrating when you know the DPS is completly fine.

What the fk is darklight anyway? How can light be dark? IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE URGGGHHHH!!!!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by Whocareswhatmynameis

What the fk is darklight anyway? How can light be dark? IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE URGGGHHHH!!!!!!!!!

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_light

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Originally Posted by Asmodaeus

Lots of opinion and no facts

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So your answer instead of allowing people to objectively see and practice damage output is to give them a trial where they can't see their damage output?

This argument is akin to "having speedometers wouldn't allow people to better follow a speed limit."
because we should all just guess which speed we are going amirite?

Saying that "it wouldn't help" is a good opinion and all but modern learning research shows that an ability to gauge your output is imperative to controlling it and this goes with anything not just FFXIV.

People who constantly shoot down the necessity for tools that will help the players shouldn't complain about the problem of low dps because these people amplify the issue.

I was stuck with an ilvl70 bracelet for the longest time because none of the quests at that level grant bracelets or rings. (when I got a bracelet that was a whole lot better, that was a huge improvement.) I'm just surprised I lasted all the way to char lvl54/55 like that.

I'm kinda on the fence with having a tool to see my numbers. Yes I would like to see my numbers, but sometimes seeing them make me mess up. Usually I just go in thinking I need to be the best I can possibly be. Usually when my friend yells out in the chat, "Your number one parsing Luc, good job" I immediately mess up my rotation in that moment of, "yes, i'm dominating this" lol. Looking over at some numbers on the screen is not the best way of focusing on the fight I tell you that. lol

Now if Yoshi-P would put some kind of after you kill the fight, dps ranking list showing the numbers. I think that is something he wouldn't mind putting in. Cause then after the kill or death, you can say to your self, man I need to step up my numbers some how... Maybe if I keep that enochian going, my numbers may rise. Oh how I love being a black mage right now. I've seen black mages that throw multiple blizzard IV's, and some who don't use Ley Lines at all... Oh how each black mage will differ now. Fellow black mages... you better read your move descriptions and get that dps up!! Because I've already seen parties who say they are looking for range dps, "no black mages please". Let's me know there are a lot out there who are not playing their job correctly.

And that is the case with a lot of jobs at the moment I would assume, and coupled with a new ex primal that has high dps checks. It can make a lot of dps look outright sorry, but they are just learning their job all over again. :P

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Originally Posted by Dante_V

People who constantly shoot down the necessity for tools that will help the players shouldn't complain about the problem of low dps because these people amplify the issue.

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The thing is almost every other MMO has parsers (even if not official, but unlike Square other developers don´t ban you for using them and they are widely known) and people still don´t use or ignore them.
Back in 2008 I did some raid lead in the huge W. We parsed every raid to the deepest crap and talked to the low DPS players but in the end from 10 people maybe 1 listend and tried to really improve.
Most people just don´t care that they are bad as long as they can get stuff done. The majority stays bad, nerfs will come and at some later time they get the crap done. Ilvl improves, skill stays they same and it goes on and on with newer content.

Only thing that would help is when everyone could see the numbers of DPS/HPS/DMG taken, so the bads would knew they can´t get away with being bad because other people see what crap they do. The community in endgame content is already toxic to the limit, seeing numbers in parsers wouldn´t make it much worse.

Just my opinion. Everyone can have another.

This is one of the key contradictions in this game. Dps checks with an official slap on dps meters. It encourages finger-pointing because there's no recognized standard for dps. Tanking and healing have very immediate meters, anyone can see when you fail as a tank or healer; but nobody can really point exactly at who is doing less than half their expected dps when only a minority uses dps meters.

I do understand the intention of this, though, as I'm in a rather social FC with a few really good core players and the rest more social types. As tank and healer main, I know exactly which of our FC members have extremely low dps after a few months. They are good people and some of them may very well have given up the game if an official dps meter existed and they see how they are under-performing.

So we don't mind that we get stuck on dps checks. As long as we are chatting and having a good time, that's good enough for us. So what if we only get to clear content after Echo? We value the personal interactions more in the FC. I've experienced progression raiding in WOW when I was young and now I'm in for the social game.

For those who really care about it, you mustn't expect magically that everyone in the PF are competent. Any veteran should know, that it takes effort to assemble a good team. If you care about progression, it is your own responsibility to note down who are the great players you meet in PF during your usual play time, and hit them up the next time you challenge the content. Gradually you will build up a list of "regulars" who won't necessarily "join your static", but will usually be available when you call on them---if they think you're good enough, too.

If you care about progression, pick and choose your own team. They don't have to be your static. Make notes and maintain a list of those players that impress you. Get active.

DPS check is rearing its ugly head because you are now granted five new abilities to weave in through your rotation. The hardcore players probably already working on optimizing their rotation (as well as farming their gears to max level 170-180 on all slots). However the majority of players probably never understand how to weave in these new abilities (let alone farming gears....). Though honestly, if you are doing a party finder content, unless you specified "need all expert players - no newbies needed" - you will fail multiple times, since it is there for you to practice. Healer gears now loose all those accuracy stats which hurt Scholar the most when it come to their DPS ability.

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Originally Posted by Luvbunny

Healer gears now loose all those accuracy stats which hurt Scholar the most when it come to their DPS ability.

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I actually like this change. In the past, bad DPS have been offloading their responsibility onto healers even though healer dps was never part of the equation. Now the fights reflect the truth much more accurately, with bad DPS no longer able to claim that it's all the healer's fault for not contributing enough dps.

Although I can also see it now. Those bad DPS will start demanding healers to get crafted accessories and overmeld them with Accuracy to raise dps. They will claim that this is what a "good" healer should be doing. They will do anything to avoid admitting that they're just not good enough DPS. I just hope the community doesn't become brain-dead and sing along, treating such ridiculous demands as "basic" healer requirement.

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Originally Posted by mp-please

So, you were wearing i70 on a trial that requires i150+ for a clear? I'm actually surprised you didn't get kicked on sight.

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Law is the new darklight, i think that is what he mean't.

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Originally Posted by Asmodaeus

The thing is almost every other MMO has parsers (even if not official, but unlike Square other developers don´t ban you for using them and they are widely known) and people still don´t use or ignore them. (...) The community in endgame content is already toxic to the limit, seeing numbers in parsers wouldn´t make it much worse.

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I tend to agree on the first point. There are people who aren't going to be interested in improving. That doesn't mean nobody ever will - just that some will be stubborn. There are definitely times where being able to have data straight up telling you "No, you aren't the one pulling their weight" is valueable as a wake up call though.

That said, though? "The endgame community's bad, so we should feel free to make it worse" isn't a stance I can agree with. A lot of the time, crappy behaviour gets put up with simply because it's believed to be the norm as though it can't be improved; but it's being shown constantly that this is a false assumption. Toxic attitudes can be adressed and improved through a variety of manners - or reinforced, and when given the chance, will get worse.

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Originally Posted by Luvbunny

DPS check is rearing its ugly head because you are now granted five new abilities to weave in through your rotation. The hardcore players probably already working on optimizing their rotation (as well as farming their gears to max level 170-180 on all slots). However the majority of players probably never understand how to weave in these new abilities (let alone farming gears....). Though honestly, if you are doing a party finder content, unless you specified "need all expert players - no newbies needed" - you will fail multiple times, since it is there for you to practice. Healer gears now loose all those accuracy stats which hurt Scholar the most when it come to their DPS ability.

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What? If anything it hurts scholar less - we have 3 guaranteed damage spells with no accuracy check...

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Originally Posted by Luvbunny

Healer gears now loose all those accuracy stats which hurt Scholar the most when it come to their DPS ability.

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I know that i get a loooooot of hate for that but...well it could be you know...because you should heal, not DPS? How can DPS improve if they have the option to shove something off to healers?

I am all about healer to FOCUS on healing please, you are not there to DPS, otherwise i would roll a DPS and not a healer. Sure, if you can and have downtime between your rotation, do so, as long as you don't stray from the reason you are there in the first place, which is to heal. But try explaining that to the horde of dumdadidumb DPS who is currently overwhelmed with new five abilities and running around mashing buttons.

If the mobs, adds, mechanics, boss are not DEAD fast enough, it is ALWAYS 100% DPS fault, ALWAYS. It is their jobs to kill adds FAST, or click on mechanic (some mechanics, healer can help). But if the adds has to be burn fast, if they don't die fast enough it is DPS fault. Again, all depend on the mechanic, if tank and healer can help without having to worry about healing, then by all means. DPS job is to kill add fast, deal damage, and click on mechanic (depend on the content, the extra healer and tank could deal with mechanic while 1 tank, 1 healer and 4 DPS burn the boss + add).

I have cleared t6,8,9 in pf pre echo. Cleared other things in pf too but I count these amongst my greatest pf miracles. Pro tip: Keep in touch with good players u meet in pf, make a linkshell, inv ppl u like playing with to it. Raiding in mmos is VERY social.