Scholar Pet Bug or Intended?

At Level 50, my Eos heals for 1000 on average and I heal for 1500 physicks (300 potency on eos heal, 400 on mine).

At Level 60, the potency remains the same, yet Eos heals for 1200 in current gear and I heal for 2400 physick.

That being said, it scales differently as you level up. I was wondering if making Eos/Selene weaker was intended or not? Hopefully it is a bug tho.

There is a thread where we discussed this already at length.
The current conclusion is that it has to do with your gear not being properly level appropriate for the fairy scaling. At max level with max gear for that level it should be ok again.

Or in short: ilevel compared to character level is incredibly important for the scaling of the fairy.

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Originally Posted by Kyomih

There is a thread where we discussed this already at length.
The current conclusion is that it has to do with your gear not being properly level appropriate for the fairy scaling. At max level with max gear for that level it should be ok again.

Or in short: ilevel compared to character level is incredibly important for the scaling of the fairy.

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This conclusion is wrong imo. Fairy scaling is still nerfed. In 2.xx embrace would typically = the heal component of my adlo. At lvl 60 and i175 its still 33% less. Either fairy scaling is bugged or nerfed. My guess based on all the other changes to sch is that it was nerfed.

I'm pretty sure I seen that this is an issue that is in the accepted bugs thread.

There was a thread posted on Reddit with a few testing results and it does indicate that with completely equivalent gearing but different levels, Embraces scaled lower versus Physick. There was also another thread on this particular forum discussing it but I haven't taken the opportunity to look for it.

To me, while this test does prove "something" is going on, it doesn't directly show this is a gear creep factor or if this is a level scaling factor (or even both at the same time, for that matter). I feel there needs to be more tests run, namely a SCH with a level 1 book and basically finding data points for the Embrace % versus Physik on multiple data point levels.

For example, if a level 15 SCH that is completely naked except for a level 1 book shows their Embrace is approximately 60 or 70% of the power of a Physik, then this clearly indicates a downward trend of fairy power as the SCH raises in power and is completely intentional. Admittidly as well, the scaling from 51-60 is significantly different compared to 1-50.

I'll probably end up testing this myself directly once I get a little time and clean out my inventory a little bit.

It's in accepted bugs, so I don't think so.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-Scaling-Issue

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

There was a thread posted on Reddit Snip...

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"It's not something that item level will resolve, unfortunately. I did a second set of testing with another friend - i110 weapon, i70 average otherwise, which is as close to current gear levels as he was able to replicate. His faerie was healing for just about 33% more than mine, as a percentage of his other heals." - ni5n[S] 9 points 1 day ago

ni5n is original poster of the Reddit article you posted, and what I copied was a comment from him to another person on that page.

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Originally Posted by Ftail

"It's not something that item level will resolve, unfortunately. I did a second set of testing with another friend - i110 weapon, i70 average otherwise, which is as close to current gear levels as he was able to replicate. His faerie was healing for just about 33% more than mine, as a percentage of his other heals." - ni5n[S] 9 points 1 day ago

ni5n is original poster of the Reddit article you posted, and what I copied was a comment from him to another person on that page.

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Keep going with that train of thought, he goes into a more indepth test which I find is more beneficial to the discussion (he edits that test into his OP) versus that one comment you linked.

I feel he needs to do the "naked but kept upgrading the weapons" test on the level 50 SCH as well. That why you have two lines of data points to compare instead of "here's the trend at level 60" versus "here's one data point at level 50". If the trend of the level 50 is similar to the trend for the level 60, then we know for certain it's a direct nerf to the fairy. For consistency sake, it would also be in the tester's interest to take a weapon that won't sync and try to see how the % changes the lower the level goes. If the Embrace % is high in the 15-30 range and continues to trend downwards, then its clear the fairy is meant to grow at a slower rate versus the SCH and thus this "nerf" is actually an intended effect, especially if it remains mostly linear (I expect there to be some sort of change at the 50-51 range).

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Originally Posted by Bigcat9715

It's in accepted bugs, so I don't think so.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-Scaling-Issue

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Do we know which point is considered "accepted bug" in that post? I'm looking at the screenshots given for the weapon / ilvl scaling and would consider that test inconclusive mainly because I don't believe she actually re-summoned her fairy after her changing weapons. The Fairy's stats are a snapshot based on the gear you had equipped at the time you summoned her. Based on the time listed in the bottom right corner between the two pictures and the fact Swiftcast isn't on cooldown, I'm going to assume she didn't change her fairy.

Ghishlain has the right of it. The thread in the accepted bugs misses the mark. If you look at the pictures he posts it becomes clear that he switched weapons without re-summoning the fairy, which is why she's healing for the same amount in both pictures. There's definitely a scaling problem but that isn't it.

It should also be noted that the accepted bugs forum does not mean that the developers agree it is a bug. It simply means that the poster provided sufficient information and it will be looked into.

Hi, i'm actually the OP of the Reddit thread (check Flair there), and I was able to get a level 50 Scholar friend to help me with some different WD/MND configurations! These are all loose averages, so they might be off by a percentage point or two, but they're more than accurate enough to show a trend.

i110 (Book of Diamonds) - Physick 680, Embrace 420 - 63.08%
i90 (Omnilex Zenith) - Physick 627, Embrace 382.8 - 61.05%
i70 (Cantavina Medica NQ, WD 57) - Physick 527, Embrace 318 - 60.3%

Those were all bound to him, but these two weren't, so I was able to perform a more accurate pair of tests:

Wolf Grimoire of Healing (HQ) (i55, 59 WD) Level 50 - 550 Physick, 322 Embrace - 58.54%
Wolf Grimoire of Healing (HQ) (i55, 59 WD) Level 60 - 593.4 Physick, 244.9 Embrace - 41.27%

Wolf Grimoire of Healing (NQ) (i55, 53 WD) Level 50 - 502.4 Physick, 302.4 Embrace - 60.17%
Wolf Grimoire of Healing (NQ) (i55, 53 WD) Level 60 - 537.9 Physick, 229.2 Embrace - 42.6%

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Originally Posted by Kyani

-Snip-

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Hi, thanks for visiting the OF, I hope you enjoy your stay =p

Here's some quick data for you to interpret as you will.

Level 15
56 MND
36 DET

Physick AVG = 59.3
59 58 60 58 59
61 61 59 58 60

Embrace AVG = 35.6
37 35 35 37 34
36 36 36 34 36

35.6/59.3 = 60.04%

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Level 24
94 MND
74 DET

Physick AVG = 83.2
85 81 83 83 80
82 84 84 85 85

Embrace AVG = 48.7
48 49 47 49 47
50 48 49 50 50

48.7/83.2 = 58.53%

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Level 35
150 MND
119 DET

Physick AVG = 107.2
107 105 109 108 108
109 104 106 106 110

Embrace AVG = 61.3
61 63 60 60 60
62 63 60 63 61

61.3/107.2 = 57.18%

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Level 44
213 MND
166 DET

Physick AVG = 167.4
172 163 171 168 168
165 164 171 166 166

Embrace AVG = 92.7
90 90 92 95 92
94 93 95 94 92

92.7/167.4 = 55.38%

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Level 50
261 MND
202 DET

Physick AVG = 195.2
192 193 197 197 192
199 190 200 200 192

Embrace AVG = 110.0
109 109 110 112 105
111 112 111 111 110

110/195.2 = 56.35%

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Level 55
273 MND
210 DET

Physick AVG = 209.7
209 213 212 206 207
215 210 208 208 209

Embrace AVG = 104.3
101 102 107 103 103
107 102 106 105 101

104.3/209.7 = 49.74%

[EDIT]
End results of tests:

Level 15
Physick AVG = 59.3
Embrace AVG = 35.6
35.6/59.3 = 60.04%

Level 24
Physick AVG = 83.2
Embrace AVG = 48.7
48.7/83.2 = 58.53%

Level 35
Physick AVG = 107.2
Embrace AVG = 61.3
61.3/107.2 = 57.18%

Level 44
Physick AVG = 167.4
Embrace AVG = 92.7
92.7/167.4 = 55.38%

Level 50
Physick AVG = 195.2
Embrace AVG = 110.0
110/195.2 = 56.35%

Level 55
Physick AVG = 209.7
Embrace AVG = 104.3
104.3/209.7 = 49.74%
[/EDIT]

All testing done on a Sunseeker Male Miqo'te. Full RSE + Level 1 ACN book bought from the NPC, effectively making my ilvl 0. The only change that may occur between level tiers are the MND stat points I have. I went into specific duty finders using the "under sized" and "minimal iL" options to sync directly to those dungeons. I used Satasha NM, Toto-Rak NM, Sunken Temple of Qarn, Dzemael Darkhold, and Wander's Palace as my syncs. I made to change all my equipment back to ilvl 0 once I entered WP and also resummoned my Fairy afterwards.

I felt it was important to be at ilvl 0 to negate any gear scaling factors that may occur with the fairy. I'm only a level 55 SCH at this time so I can't do any test in the 60 range yet.

Things I note from this:
-Fairy stat scaling is slightly slower compared to the SCH between levels 15 to 50 (with a small but notable increase at the 50 mark - this can potentially be attributed to the allocated MND point you gain every level beyond 45+ and up to level 50)
-Embrace literally got less potent from the jump between level 50 to level 55
-In general, stat scaling from 50+ got a lot slower compared to a similar jump in a pre-50 curve.

I think this totally and completely debunks the whole "it's the power creep from gear" theory as with the way I did my experiment, there was 0 influence from gear.

This also means that either, as you rightfully mentioned in your post that the fairy is bugged more than we think because the only reason the fairy should be getting weaker is if they're literally getting negative penalties on level up; or this is an intended nerf to SCH to keep their power level in check. I'm hoping for the former.

Hey, does anyone have the i170/180 weapon with full gear at 60 to compare to i70 at 50? Reason I ask this is because Philosophy was the first tier of gear in ARR 2.0, similliar to the Law gear in 3.0.

Old gear isn't going to give enough stat weights at 60 to do anything scaling wise as yourselves have mentioned regarding the stat weights.

All of these tests sub 60 aren't really that helpful to be honest -because we know there is some weird stat thing that happens during leveling and all we really care about is that it works correctly at 60 - here is the main thing that matters. When I was geared at 50 in 2.0 - my Embraces were about 950 while my Physicks were about 1300. So in a Embrace + Physik cast - Embrace accounted for 42% of the heal, and was 73% as strong as Physik.

Now, I am geared at 60. My Embraces do 1250 and my Physicks do 2500. So in a Physick+ Embrace cast Embrace now accounts for 33% (21% reduction) of the heal, and is 50% (31% reduction) as strong as Physick.

This takes the leveling quirks out of the equation - how did it used to work, and how does it work now? And a lot pf people's tests are naked with a weapon, but it's apparent the difference is greatly amplified with gear that is comparatively helping the SCH way more than the pet. It's either a silent nerf or a bug. My gut is telling me it's a bug and relatively simple - Maim and Mend isn't working on the pet like it's supposed to. Especially since this is with eyeballed numbers, that simple 30% seems to bring it back exactly to where it was.

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Originally Posted by Sidra

All of these tests sub 60 aren't really that helpful to be honest -because we know there is some weird stat thing that happens during leveling and all we really care about is that it works correctly at 60 - here is the main thing that matters. When I was geared at 50 in 2.0 - my Embraces were about 950 while my Physicks were about 1300. So in a Embrace + Physik cast - Embrace accounted for 42% of the heal, and was 73% as strong as Physik.

Now, I am geared at 60. My Embraces do 1250 and my Physicks do 2500. So in a Physick+ Embrace cast Embrace now accounts for 33% (21% reduction) of the heal, and is 50% (31% reduction) as strong as Physick.

This takes the leveling quirks out of the equation - how did it used to work, and how does it work now? And a lot pf people's tests are naked with a weapon, but it's apparent the difference is greatly amplified with gear that is comparatively helping the SCH way more than the pet. It's either a silent nerf or a bug. My gut is telling me it's a bug and relatively simple - Maim and Mend isn't working on the pet like it's supposed to. Especially since this is with eyeballed numbers, that simple 30% seems to bring it back exactly to where it was.

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The controlled sub-50 test is important one has to see how the fairy is suppose to grow over the course of the SCH's career. For all we know, the SCH Fairy was designed to get weaker over the course of leveling up, and the gear stats such as MD have a much higher influence on your fairy's power. Since MD remained constant during my testing and the fairy continued to grow (albeit slower than the SCH) as the SCH progressed in levels. While this may seem very obvious that the fairy should become stronger as the SCH gets higher leveled, it's important to not make any assumptions at this juncture and actually remove all other factors to keep the testing as controlled as possible.

Now, why the fairy actually got weaker upon leveling past 50 while the SCH themselves actually got stronger?

I like the theory you've presented that the 30% from Maim and Mend is not being applied properly. This would actually be relatively simple to test. If this was the case then once a SCH hits 51, the Fairy should have a dramatic drop in their embrace power in a 0 ilvl scenario once they cross that threshold. Afterwards, the Fairy's power should increase on each level up in a similar fashion to how the SCH's Physick's would level up. The test itself at this juncture would be a little time consuming for anyone who's already 60 as they will need to find the means to level sync and perform the test in zero gear (which can be a bit dangerous if trying in any sort of FATE), though not impossible.

We can test this via other means with data currently present though. A drop in 30% would mean that a Fairy's embrace would be 1 / 1.3 = 76.92% as potent as normal (or a 23.08% drop in power). This number doesn't quite line up with your math, Sidra, but can still be plausible as we don't know how a Fairy's stats are entirely calculated. If you increase my Fairy's Embrace @ level 55 by 30%, that would put her at 135.59 average and actually be about 64.66% as potent as my 55 SCHs Physick. This number dpes feel quite out of whack.

If you take Kyani's numbers in the two Reddit threads posted and what was posted here:
60 Fairy Embrace w/ DW Codex (i130) = 370 + 30% = 481 | This result is about equal to a level 50 Fairy with the same book (Embrace = 480). This result should be slightly higher due to level ups though.
60 Fairy Embrace w/ Wolf Grimoire of Healing (NQ - i55) = 229.2 + 30% = 297.96 | This result is actually less than 50 Fairy with the same book (Embrace = 302.4). This result should definitely be higher.
60 Fairy Embrace w/ Wolf Grimoire of Healing (HQ - i55) = 244.9 + 30% = 318.37 | This result is actually less than 50 Fairy with the same book (Embrace = 322.0). This result should definitely be higher.

So, to me it doesn't feel like it's the 30% from Maim and Mend. I will reiterate though that we don't know exactly how the Fairy scales with the SCHs stats so I won't completely discount this particular train of thought either.

In some respect, I feel like there is a factor associated with the level that's in the formula for the scaling. In the pre-50 era, the natural progression of the SCH exceeded this scaling, giving the Fairy its growth. In post 50, given how low the actual stat growth is, this factor has actually exceeded the stat growth and thus made the Fairy weaker. Admittedly, this is just a hypothesis.

I'll see if I can get more post 50 data points some time later today once I finish my errands.

Hasn't this been already confirmed as a bug ?

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Originally Posted by Teno

Hasn't this been already confirmed as a bug ?

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At the very least its in the accepted bugs section. Whether or not it will be fixed is another matter however...

IMO it's a silent nerf. They did it on purpose and were quiet about it.

My fairy used to embrace for = the heal component of adlo at pretty much all ilvls/gear.

My embrace now does about 1300 while my adlo does close to 2k heal.

Expect to get a "eff off scholars" message when they address this "accepted bug."

I know it's in the accepted bug section but I also tend to think they did it in purpose to make sure we can't just dps like we used to (especially also with the lustrate change). I find myself constantly switching off and on cleric stance and in DF groups I sometimes even don't dare going into cleric at all because the tank can be very unstable. I have to admit though, I kinda like the added challenge of constantly judging if I want to go cleric or not. The only issue is that I don't think any of the groups realize that it's much less easy and straight forward for a SCH to dps now.