memorial service for MCH

with rapid fire "Fixed" and wildfire's dmg been from my own test reduced.

its time to lay this class to rest and remember what fun we had leveling from 30-50

K.

Wait no, after doing research I totally agree and made this:

http://i.imgur.com/fewxtkD.png

Uhh. Wildfire's damage wasnt reduced. It's just counting as Non-DoT damage now so you can see how much it hits.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Odowla

Uhh. Wildfire's damage wasnt reduced. It's just counting as Non-DoT damage now so you can see how much it hits.

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Yes, which is still just as depressing since now we can see how little damage we're doing with it. :(

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Odowla

Uhh. Wildfire's damage wasnt reduced. It's just counting as Non-DoT damage now so you can see how much it hits.

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the rapid fire fix indirectly nerfed wildfire too

Press FU to pay respects

Didn't even last 2 weeks after launch. Shame.

I barely knew you MCH, what a waste

I couldn't believe it.

Our damage was already bottom-tier, and then they NERFED us? I don't care if teleporting instantly was considered a 'bug', they've bloody killed a job that was already struggling! It's unbelievable!

This is so damned boneheaded I can't even... ugh... we've been abandoned and thrown into the bloody ditches. I can't... I can't even....

http://i.imgur.com/3X6iVMi.jpg

(Note: our damage is so crap even discharging the gun on our craniums wouldn't do anything)

WTF SE why :c

Still playing it. Still gonna raid with it.

R.I.P. MCH pretenders.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

R.I.P. MCH pretenders.

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^ This.
Returned to game with new character/server/friends specifically to play this class. Rushing to it with this attitude!
Ignore the flame, enjoy the game!

I think the WOW developers have infected FFXIV's. This is the kind of thing they'd do.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Still playing it. Still gonna raid with it.

R.I.P. MCH pretenders.

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Hahaha, love it!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Still playing it. Still gonna raid with it.

R.I.P. MCH pretenders.

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lessee how far you come with that 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1 OH OH OOOOOOOOOH I GOT A PROCC! aw no procc for the third skill.....1-1-1-1-1-1-1....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Still playing it. Still gonna raid with it.

R.I.P. MCH pretenders.

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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ this

1,1,1. . . ?

That's probably why the DPS sucks. I don't (and I imagine most MCH who do it right, don't) do that.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

1,1,1. . . ?

That's probably why the DPS sucks. I don't (and I imagine most MCH who do it right, don't) do that.

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Whatever Hotkey you use for Splitshot...fact is MCH DPS...why call it even DPS? Lets call it "tickle per second".....no sane static will take a mch with them because hes plain deadweight.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Still playing it. Still gonna raid with it.

R.I.P. MCH pretenders.

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nice for fc to carry a deadweight.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

1,1,1. . . ?

That's probably why the DPS sucks. I don't (and I imagine most MCH who do it right, don't) do that.

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if you literally have nothing up no quick reload no reload you'll run into pressing 1,1,1,1,1,1,1 in rare chance I ended up pressing 1 enough times to see quick reload off cd with no proc. its literally rng and its good and bad but that is what mch basically do when nothing is up so if you did know a mch then you'd know this happens kinda of often and seeing no procs. the only pretender here is you.

Yea guys. RIP MCH http://i.imgur.com/NgZRUQr.png

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Originally Posted by Haxetc

Yea guys. RIP MCH http://i.imgur.com/NgZRUQr.png

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uses a goon to up dps on a dummy. parse is literally a dummy. I've still yet to see Ravana ex parses with and without gb. I would totally run some ravana ex but I need a viable dps before alex launches and my nin is pretty close to 60 with a whole 180 set waiting for it till they give mch a buff.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shhikasan

if you literally have nothing up no quick reload no reload you'll run into pressing 1,1,1,1,1,1,1 in rare chance I ended up pressing 1 enough times to see quick reload off cd with no proc. its literally rng and its good and bad but that is what mch basically do when nothing is up so if you did know a mch then you'd know this happens kinda of often and seeing no procs. the only pretender here is you.

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Easy there, wasn't trying to get you all worked up, Desperado. Hey, if that works for you, keep doing it. I don't. Maybe I'm just lucky with procs. Or maybe I. . . oh I dunno, actually think outside the damn box a little. If you sit there waiting for procs to govern how you DPS as a whole, I feel bad for you son. Sure, MCH DPS is low, but I'm like to believe that it's likely due to garbage in, garbage out.

Oh, no offense. Wouldn't wanna proc getting those panties in a bunch! :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shhikasan

uses a goon to up dps on a dummy. parse is literally a dummy. I've still yet to see Ravana ex parses with and without gb. I would totally run some ravana ex but I need a viable dps before alex launches and my nin is pretty close to 60 with a whole 180 set waiting for it till they give mch a buff.

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TIL they give it a buff? And I'm the pretender. . . Man, if MCH gets a huge buff (unlikely, but we'll see) that bandwagon is gonna be PACKED.

P.S. I've done most of everything without my FC; never bought, never carried, not that you care or need to know. Without a relic, generally undergeared by most accepted standards, and still pulling my weight and then some. But hey, make all the assumptions you like if it makes you feel better.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Or maybe I. . . oh I dunno, actually think outside the damn box a little.

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I'm struggling to imagine what "out of the box thinking" gets you when there's literally no abilities you can hit while both reload and quick reload are on cd. At this point I'm inclined to think you're just taking the piss. Or just making sh*t up, I dnno.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

[...]I'm like to believe that it's likely due to garbage in, garbage out.

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Seriously, can you be any more obnoxious? Wait, don't answer that. I don't want to know.

All I can say is that I kindly suggest you make your point without making an utter ass of yourself like you are now. Few will take your sh*t seriously if you're going to take this tone with everyone who disagrees with you.

There needs to be a safety web for RNG.
Fail? next chance is 60%, Fail again? next chance will be 70% ...
On proc it will reset back to 50% chance.
Maybe add a bonus if you are lucky enough to hit multiple 1 2 3 combos in a row? But yeah RNG needs some safety web for sure. I liked my MCH in the beginning but having no luck with procs made me stop using mine.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Sassy cat jimjams

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Ease back on the sass a little, eh? You can convey your point without insulting people.

I'm giving up MCH despite how much I love it because that kick while I'm down from the hotfix was too much for me, and I don't want to play a class that seems to be a sinking ship. However, if you find yourself incredibly successful with it, I'd love to hear how you play, since you did take time to go on about how you don't wait for procs.

Don't just tell us how you're better than those "pretenders". Show us. Teach us. If you can make the class viable, I'd love to learn.

Well, I personally keep GB on all the time and I've adapted to slide casting. I may lose a split shot cast every now and then, but it's usually not that bad. It also gives me Gauss Round to break up the monotony during down time from Reload. Is it a dps loss? Maybe. We haven't really had any parses from dungeons or primals to really show either way. Everything is based on test dummies. I'd like to see some real parses from actual content.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

Well, I personally keep GB on all the time and I've adapted to slide casting. I may lose a split shot cast every now and then, but it's usually not that bad. It also gives me Gauss Round to break up the monotony during down time from Reload. Is it a dps loss? Maybe. We haven't really had any parses from dungeons or primals to really show either way. Everything is based on test dummies. I'd like to see some real parses from actual content.

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Problem is you can get banned for posting actual parser data(forum AND game). its like the fight club, everybody knows its there but nobody is allowed to show you.

Before the Rapid Fire + Gauss Barrel nerf, I felt pretty let down already. Now I'm just wondering what they're going to do. Even animations are unimpressive. I remember when they showed the MACHINIST at a live event. Even YoshiP looked bored.

More disappointing because NINJA, the new class before the HEAVENSWARD, really added some variety into the roster.

MACHINIST plays like another execution of BARD, aligning buffs with *one* burst combo...And waiting. It requires more effort to be mediocre than the other classes to be amazing. (I don't think that is an exaggeration.)

Why the need for it to be proc based, at all? Is it really implausible to have SPLIT SHOT > SLUG SHOT > CLEAN SHOT be a regular combo?

If there was a real need for a SUPPORT class within the mechanics of XIV, then I'd be much warmer to it. Still though, will be my main Ranged DPS.

You know, you're absolutely right. I can make points without being sassy or whatnot. I was merely giving back what was given. Nice? No. Fair? Probably not. But it's said, done, and past tense now.

As for MCH, there's no way I'm going to claim to be a pro at a job that's not even 2 weeks old yet. I mean yes, coming from Bard, some things were pretty similar (keep Hot Shot and Lead Shot up like Straight Shot & DoTs), other things came with time or trial and error (every now and then I STILL accidentally refresh my Lead Shot right after a Reassemble). The rest, honestly, comes from simply TRYING things. Not parses. Not following someone's days-old "this is how you play this" guide. Doing it my own damn self.

Just tonight, purely on a whim, I decided to practice on a dummy. What kind of numbers can I pull with no turret, no buffs, no ammo, and NOT using procs? That was the question Honestly, at i163, with an upgraded Law weapon, I was pulling (generally) low 600s [this is raw damage numbers on hit] with Split Shot. Slug and Clean were generally low to mid 400s. BUT! I did discover that our 1-2-3 is NOT a linear combo, as I'm sure many already knew. If you're willing to sacrifice the damage that could be done, you can easily use Slug Shot and proc Clean, go BACK and use Split, proc Slug, use your proc-Clean, use your proc-Slug, and still potentially get ANOTHER proc Clean Shot. Without Ammo. In a nutshell: 2 (proc 3), 1 (proc 2), 3, 2 (possibly proc 3 again), 3. And you could possibly do that infinitely.

Yes, that's heavily reliant on RNG, and maybe more technical than it needs to be, but that was done several times intentionally, not consistently, without Reloads or Quick Reloads. And since Reload/Quick Reload can work retroactively (I can fire a proc-Slug Shot, RL/QR then still get a proc-Clean) imagine how you can work that to your advantage. No, you're not going to suddenly pull amazing DPS out of a hat with that, but it beats 1-1-1-1-1-waiting for 2-1-1-2!-nope, no 3-1-1-1-1. . .

Fact is, it's a 2 week old job. NO ONE is an expert yet. No one can even claim it, especially with defeatist threads like this. Personally, I'll take that challenge. I don't care to be considered an expert, I'm only interested in doing my best with what I'm given, and I don't think what I've been given is so unusable at all. If it were, I'd have seen it WELL before 60. But I haven't. I haven't done any Ex Primals yet, no, but nor have I been kicked from anything, excluded from anything, or performed so terribly that the party suffered for it. Why? Because I'm willing to switch it up. Willing to try it my own way and maybe learn something - good or bad - in the process. I didn't start with 1-1-1, and I have no need of it now.

Am I the best? Nope. Will I ever be? Probably not. Do I care? NO. I like Machinist. THAT is why I play it. I was excited for it the moment I saw it, and I switched mains for it. I have no regrets, and few complaints. Yes, it definitely needs a buff. And shorter cooldowns on some key skills. But it's not enough to call it quits. So yeah, when I say "R.I.P. pretenders" I'm calling out all the people who are so easily giving up. I accepted the good and bad of Bard. Pre-nerf, post-nerf. I'll take Machinist as it is now, and hope for better. If not, then I do the best with what I've got.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RedHare

MACHINIST plays like another execution of BARD, aligning buffs with *one* burst combo...And waiting. It requires more effort to be mediocre than the other classes to be amazing. (I don't think that is an exaggeration.)

Why the need for it to be proc based, at all? Is it really implausible to have SPLIT SHOT > SLUG SHOT > CLEAN SHOT be a regular combo?

---

My guess is that when they started designing MCH, they decided one of their rules for physical ranged DPS is that it had to be like BRD in a way. Serving a similar purpose while having the same/similar utility (meaning instead of competing for DPS slots with BLM, SMN, DRG, NIN and MNK, MCH is only competing with BRD). Of course, this also trickles into it having similar gameplay; a problem made worse by using the same mechanics in the post-50 game for both jobs.

Back in ARR's beta they talked about the fact that combos as known by melee don't really fit a ranged class like archer/BRD, which is why they went with procs. I originally figured that for the sake of making the jobs different gameplay-wise, they'd design MCH with weaker attacks that are instant and heavier attacks with cast times, and perhaps interactions between shots (basically the idea behind Wildfire but expanded). Hence why I'm of the belief Gauss Barrel and Wanderer's Minuet shouldn't exist, yet they do because this is the gimmick through which you see changes in gameplay (I'm guessing to match up to the new systems added for MNK, DRG and SMN, though those systems added to gameplay rather than take away).

When designing the MCH, the developer must goes like:

"Hey, I like that BLM swift-cast and proc-stuff. Lets add it to the Machinist"
"Hey, I like that Dragonkick and Combo-stuff from the MNK. Lets add it to the Machinist"
"Hey, I like the Songs and Stuns a BRD can do. Lets add it to the Machinist"
"Hey, I like that Crit-, DoT- and Damage-Buff-Skill from our DRGs. Lets add it to the Machinist"
"Hey, I like that pet from the SMN. Lets add it to the Machinist"
"Hey, I like that Jutsu-stuff from NIN. Nah, that would be to much."

"What about damage?" - "Fuck it, we got a class which got everything from nearly any other DPS-class. Maybe we must nerf it later, because it looks to powerfull right now".


At the moment, I dont see any reasons to take a MCH into a fight, if the group got already a BRD. Nearly every class got their own skill in regenerating TP/MP. No need to have 2 classes which can do.

Its quite pointless to sacrifice one dps-slot for another support-class, which cant even support as good as the BRD already does. On the other hand, the DPS-gap spreads even more. Maybe SE have to add an additional dps-slot for non-BRD/MCH, when a MCH already joined the party.

Ironically, knowing that BRD and MCH do much lower damage than any other dps classes, they implemented 2 big DPS-checks called "'Bismarck" and "Ravana".


Nevertheless. I thought, the MCH will be a challenging class to supplement other DPS classes. But for now, its just a weak BRD-clone with guns and procs. In Raid, every MCH will be nothing more than this:

http://www.proliberty.com/observer/batterymorpheus.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Still playing it. Still gonna raid with it.

R.I.P. MCH pretenders.

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Congrats, you're going to be an *** to your raid team just so you can feel good about yourself for being a "real" MCH.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Humorless

Congrats, you're going to be an *** to your raid team just so you can feel good about yourself for being a "real" MCH.

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Pretty sure hes basically right and everyone is way overreacting.

BRD/MCH damage is NOT nearly as bad as people say it is. (People just suck)

MCH brings a physical damage down debuff, and a higher damage potential for a bit less utility.


Seriously, people really need a healthy dose of L2P

Persoanlly, I love MCH. No one in my FC gives me crap about being one and I've had several members compliment me on my ability to play the class properly. Do I believe we need buffs? Of course. Gauss Barrel right now gives us a big negative with cast times for no gain. That's an issue, as is having too much down time between reloads. But other than that, I think the class is fine. Our potencies look low, but are compensated for with increased action damage and our turrets, which make them higher than the tooltip shows. I even tried going back to playing my ninja when all the rumblings started, but found myself having a lot more fun with MCH. So I'm going to stick with it.

I still remember people saying how slow normal Haukke was with a MCH when they first came out. I thought it was me at first, but then chalked it up to gear. Everyone at that time had leveling gear and people weren't synced from their high level stuff. Go in there now with my ilvl of 170 synced down and things are melting even without my turret.

So yes, we need buffs (or tank dps needs nerfs, but I prefer the former) and fixes. But people are making it seem like we're so bad off there's no hope for us, which is going way overboard. All that attitude is doing for us is making more and more people not want to take a MCH based on what's being said instead of what they actually experience for themselves.

Wait, Machinist? So you guys aren't talking about the new Gambler class?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Humorless

Congrats, you're going to be an *** to your raid team just so you can feel good about yourself for being a "real" MCH.

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Calm down and read a little before firing off. All that means is I'm not going to let everyone else's idea that "MCH can't raid!" dictate whether I try or not. Whether I succeed or fail is going to be purely of my own doing. NOT what others say.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sen_Terrechant

Pretty sure hes basically right and everyone is way overreacting.

BRD/MCH damage is NOT nearly as bad as people say it is. (People just suck)

MCH brings a physical damage down debuff, and a higher damage potential for a bit less utility.


Seriously, people really need a healthy dose of L2P

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but but, you are not even play MCH yourself (or unlock it, when I check). Everything sound good in skill description & paper, but you gotta try it yourself

I can't believe some people are saying it doesn't need buffs.

I am playing it at present and CAN IT CLEAR CONTENT? YES. YES IT CAN.

As fast as anything else (ANYTHING ELSE)? NO.
Is the utility it brings worth the damage loss? NO.
Do I even notice when I use Dismantle? NO.
Do I even notice when I overcharge turret (aside from MP/TP regain)? NO.
Do I even get the ability to use silence/stun on bosses? NO.

So we paid for our cake and we didn't even get to freaking eat it.

I am leveling it to 60 finally and it can clear content, but it does so in a totally horrendous way and I literally am playing it to it's maximum potential. I out DPS people, but it's obvious THEY don't know their classes rotation when I do or they are doing that "1-1-1-1-1-1-1" afk-dps spam.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The_Last_Dragoon

Wait, Machinist? So you guys aren't talking about the new Gambler class?

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Final Fantasy: Triple Triad reborn ...

AKA machinist.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shneibel

but but, you are not even play MCH yourself (or unlock it, when I check). Everything sound good in skill description & paper, but you gotta try it yourself

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I play MCH. I'm level 60 with 180 weapons and ilvl 171. I agree that people are overreacting and it's hurting the class a lot. Again, we're not where we should be, but a good MCH player also won't be dragging the group down to failure like many people are claiming.