MCH completely useless

Sad to say, I have never really felt more cheated in this game..

I picked MCH to level through my MSQ.. and slowly i began learning how completely useless I will be in any raid or group compared to a BRD or any other DPS.. including a WHM spamming Stone 3! (not kidding)

Nevermind the lack of DPS that I do..

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Dismantle: Lowers target's physical damage dealt by 5% Duration: 10 SECONDS - Cooldown: NINETY FREAKING SECONDS

Rend Mind: Lowers target's magic damage dealt by 5%. Duration: 10 SECONDS - Cooldown: NINETY FREAKING SECONDS

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Situational? Noticeable ever? One or two 5% damage debuffs every boss fight for 10 seconds? 85 - 110 damage reduction on dungeon averages? Please tell me how this matters in the slightest.

I am thoroughly irritated and extremely discouraged that I picked this Job. There is no way I will be able to get another 50-60 doing fates and dungeons for 3million exp per level.

Ugh.. /endrant.

I agree 100%. These are all concerns I voiced as soon as I reached level 50 and it freaked me out.

Low damage... okay we have a tradeoff for utility... LOL OH WAIT THE UTILITY WE HAVE IS SO UNDERTUNED WE PAID FOR OUR DINNER AND DON'T GET TO EVEN HAVE IT.

Have you tried hypercharge, wildfire? These two skills are ABSOOLUTELY "WTF?!?!??!!" as well.

True that the damage is low. As far as utility go, I don't see how we are a supportive class at all.

I actually like hypercharge and wildfire though:O

The skills themselves along with the playstyle of the class is perfectly fine, the effectiveness and the potencies of skills definitely need a tune. I currently think that insta cast gauss barrel under rapid fire is a bug and if they fix it I hope they buff gauss barrel along with it. 30% would do nicely.

I can think of plenty of time in just about every coil fight currently that those abilities would be amazing when doing progression. It's like people forgot what raids are like with this expansion

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Originally Posted by Urielparadox

I can think of plenty of time in just about every coil fight currently that those abilities would be amazing when doing progression. It's like people forgot what raids are like with this expansion

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In my opinion the support is fine. People don't seem to understand that rend stacks with dk/delirium and path. They make for very strong cool downs even if they are 5%. Use them for big hits like flatten or akh morn. My only problem is with their damage. I am currently completely geared and I still have problems out dpsing warriors.

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Originally Posted by HairyRoger

True that the damage is low. As far as utility go, I don't see how we are a supportive class at all.

I actually like hypercharge and wildfire though:O

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I've said it before and I'll say it again, this class is not a supporter it is a debuffer. It's a type of character that's been in the FF serious for a long time, and it's role is to weaken the enemy not necessarily strengthen the party.

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Originally Posted by Ephier

In my opinion the support is fine. People don't seem to understand that rend stacks with dk/delirium and path. They make for very strong cool downs even if they are 5%. Use them for big hits like flatten or akh morn. My only problem is with their damage. I am currently completely geared and I still have problems out dpsing warriors.

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This right here is exactly how I was thinking the class should be played, and I think it's also where the biggest problem with the class is. It's set up to work off other characters supports and debuffs so on it's own it's very lackluster. I mean just consider the burst damage of a party set up with Drk, War, Ast, Sch, Mch, Brd, Drg, Nin. All the effects stacking on top of each other would make for some insane bursts, but outside of these bursts Mch is then useless as it's just to focused on taking advantage of them, and when it's not all perfectly set up it's back to the lowest dmg in the game.

i don't really get the whole debate over MCH's damage. when i look at parses ppl posted (providing used "illegal" tools are working correctly) it's equal to BRD's. Are BRDs crying as well over their damage atm?

From a utility point MCH seems to bring more to the raid than BRD.

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Originally Posted by Starkbeaumont

Are BRDs crying as well over their damage atm?

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We're all too busy yelling over WM to pay attention to things like damage yet =p

Expect big changes with Bard and Machinist in 3.1

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Originally Posted by Starkbeaumont

i don't really get the whole debate over MCH's damage. when i look at parses ppl posted (providing used "illegal" tools are working correctly) it's equal to BRD's. Are BRDs crying as well over their damage atm?

From a utility point MCH seems to bring more to the raid than BRD.

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Actually Bards are screaming at the top of their lungs right now, somehow they are even more vocal than MCH.

well you have to think there are more brds then mch since you know they could of been rolling a brd since the game's relaunch.
for me it kinda of hit me hard because I played brd a lot from 2.1 up till nin and then with HW I leveled Mch and planned on maining it.
and boy am i salty as leveling another dps would be very grindy to play to 60.

BUT I'm willing to stick it out seeing as I've been seeing somewhat that mch in good rng without its gauss can do some nice dps compared to a non WM brd(cause face it brd and mch aren't made to be casters at all unless we start using mp and allowed to us tp to sprint movement is pretty a pain and in real fights leaving wm/Gauss is better only in real fights with ton of movements which is gonna be all of them).

Personally if they wanted to changed something make gauss and WM just a pure dmg buff give us our auto attacks back and no cast times. I'd be just happy with just behind melee dps not Behind tank dps and White mage spamming stone 3.

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Originally Posted by Shhikasan

Behind tank dps and White mage spamming stone 3.

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I actually outdamage the vast majority of MCH in neverreap as a scholar... spamming a 170 potency broil. 170 potency. It's asinine.

White Mages stone is what. 210 potency?

WHM will out DPS a MCH spamming Stone 3.

Im not kidding.

And no.. I don't think 5% debuff is noticeable in the slightest.. for 10 seconds. Other classes have sustainable debuffs they can keep up on raid bosses that are SUBSTANTIALLY better than a 5% physical OR magical for 10 seconds on a 90s cooldown.

and you're calling us debuffers? Thats pathetic.

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Originally Posted by SaiahLynn

WHM will out DPS a MCH spamming Stone 3.

Im not kidding.

And no.. I don't think 5% debuff is noticeable in the slightest.. for 10 seconds. Other classes have sustainable debuffs they can keep up on raid bosses that are SUBSTANTIALLY better than a 5% physical OR magical for 10 seconds on a 90s cooldown.

and you're calling us debuffers? Thats pathetic.

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I agree extremely strongly with this statement.

Most classes have extremely constant buffs (or near constant, opposed to truly "constant"), it is absolutely appauling that a class supposedly dedicated to crowd control and debuffing with TWO PREMIUM HIGH LEVEL SKILLS... has such weak and non-lasting effects.

Like for the duration and cooldown and specificity I'd have imagined it be 20%, but being absolutely reasonable I'd say 15%.

And they share cooldown timers is the bigger kick to the face.

Topic like these make me sad.

Was really looking forward to playing machinist, it seems having to level to 50 to unlock it and then level again from 30 for a sub par job seems really depressing... :(

I can see what people are talking about just by looking at skills from other jobs/classes, SMN has Virus, Eye for an Eye and a battle raise which by themselves seem to far outclass any debuff the MCH can offer.

I can see what people mean by scoffing at the notion MCH is a debuffer/utility class comparing it to the utility other jobs get whilst also having seemingly much better damage dealing capability.

MCH also seems to be (arguably) the most dangerous job to be playing atm too as they have zero self sustain. Never really agreed with the fact melee classes have it more dangerous than ranged anyway, there are mechanics specifically desigined to target both playstyles.

Trying to find any reason to actually play this job makes my brain hurt... Outside of their gear looking pretty cool...

If I could go back into time and not play MCH, I woul but sticking with it to 60 for armory bonus for 2nd 60 /sigh

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Originally Posted by Slirith

If I could go back into time and not play MCH, I woul but sticking with it to 60 for armory bonus for 2nd 60 /sigh

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What is this armory bonus?

Edit: Nevermind, didn't realize it was THAT!

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Originally Posted by SovereignAegis

Actually Bards are screaming at the top of their lungs right now, somehow they are even more vocal than MCH.

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as Taban said, i thought Brds were sad over how "useless" WM is, not the overall dmg, especially with the current encounters. but good to know both camps are not satisfied by their dmg output

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Originally Posted by Starkbeaumont

as Taban said, i thought Brds were sad over how "useless" WM is, not the overall dmg, especially with the current encounters. but good to know both camps are not satisfied by their dmg output

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Most BRD's are indeed complaining about their play style change, but they do have a deficiency in damage as well. They are still 50~80 dps higher than MCN, but that does not mean that their numbers are not low either. Also they do not have a way to instantly put up their wanderers minuet like we can do with rapid fire and gauss barrel.

Do we really have to wait for 3.1, in a few months, for the machinist to be playable? This job will be dead long before that with Alexander coming soon.

I wanted to play one of the new classes after getting lvl 60 with my PLD. Too much DRK and AST so I choose MCH wich seemed cool and original, but I already feel totally useless after a few dungeons (even if I'm still new to the job)...

Why would people play MCH? It's similar to a bard, more difficult than other classes, weaker than anything else, and useless in a party (no really useful skill). I really would like to take it to lvl 50 or 60 and even use it for Alexander, but it seems useless to do so and waste time for nothing... Maybe the "no MCH" in PF is the way to go to make SE react faster?

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Originally Posted by Aerya

Do we really have to wait for 3.1, in a few months, for the machinist to be playable? This job will be dead long before that with Alexander coming soon.

I wanted to play one of the new classes after getting lvl 60 with my PLD. Too much DRK and AST so I choose MCH wich seemed cool and original, but I already feel totally useless after a few dungeons (even if I'm still new to the job)...

Why would people play MCH? It's similar to a bard, more difficult than other classes, weaker than anything else, and useless in a party (no really useful skill). I really would like to take it to lvl 50 or 60 and even use it for Alexander, but it seems useless to do so and waste time for nothing... Maybe the "no MCH" in PF is the way to go to make SE react faster?

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They fixed dragoon ins 2.45, so it is possible that we could get it before 3.1.

I'm kind of disappointed in machinist as well. I have it to 50 now and I do enjoy the style of it, but the damage is just very disappointing. As is the utility - it's supposed to be a debuffer job but the debuffs only last 10 seconds and have such long cooldowns that they're really only usable once per fight?

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Originally Posted by SovereignAegis

I actually outdamage the vast majority of MCH in neverreap as a scholar... spamming a 170 potency broil. 170 potency. It's asinine.

White Mages stone is what. 210 potency?

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So uhh, a 140 potency shot every 2.5 seconds combined with the Turrets 80 Potency Shot in the same timeframe, a combined 220 Potency ... Fails to outdps you spamming a potency 170 spell? Mathematically, this makes zero sense.

Not to mention Gauss Round for 200 potency every 20 seconds, Head Graze for 100 potency every 25, a 40 potency DoT ticking away the whole time, a flat 5% bonus to all damage dealt and the random occurrences of Slug and Clean Shot procs along with the forced procs while ALSO using RS, BfB, Hawk's Eye, Reassemble, Rapid Fire and Wildfire ....

Starting to lean more into the "They have no idea WTF they're doing as a Machinist".

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Originally Posted by Sylve

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Then you need to factor that machinist's weapon damage stats are in the low values similar to bard; a white mage in cleric stance has better scaling than this with a 170 potency.

Gauss Barrel is a dps loss if you keep it beyond the intial burst. Using round/ricochet off cooldown assumes that you're keeping it on for the entire fight.

Half those buffs aren't exclusive to machinist, nor would any decent one would use it to buff split shot exclusively if that is what you're getting at.

The problem I see is with machinist (aside from me lagging behind compared to other dps classes) is that I always find myself busting my ass (aligning cooldowns, pre pull burst, pots, all of that) just to get under them in dps, and some of our burst straight up does't apply unless you make adjustments (meaning lower it's overall damage) because some vulnerability phases simply do not last long enough for wildfire (neverreap's first boss and bismarack EX come to mind). I never find myself using gauss barrel outside of burst or AoE because the auto attack loss isn't made up with the increased damage or the two skills. And the only time I do use it again after the initial burst is either in combination with my cooldowns (which I'm sure is a bug with rapid fire making GB instant cast), or when there is signifcant downtime where I can't attack the boss...and use it for burst.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Gauss Barrel is a dps loss if you keep it beyond the intial burst. Using round/ricochet off cooldown assumes that you're keeping it on for the entire fight..

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Not quite. MCN can stance dance with rapid fire, and it is indeed an increase to swap gauss barrel on to use those 2 cooldowns then take it off. Also in AoE applications, gauss barrel is definitely more damage.

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Originally Posted by Ephier

Not quite. MCN can stance dance with rapid fire, and it is indeed an increase to swap gauss barrel on to use those 2 cooldowns then take it off. Also in AoE applications, gauss barrel is definitely more damage.

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But that's using GB for burst... If you try to use it any other time outside of bursting it's just not worth it. We're talking a 90s cooldown on using those two abilties (which happen to allign with b4b, HE and WF), and not much else after that. And even then, I'm pretty sure rapid fire making GB instant is still a bug since it's not a weapon skill.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

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The ONLY thing you lose from Gauss Barrel is auto attack.
When you take off GB, you lose access to an entire 200 potency shot which also gains 20% damage from the Barrel, you lose damage on Lead Shot and pointlessly sacrifice 20% bonus damage on Slug and Clean since those are instant under Ammo effects.

Losing 185 damage (at 57 with a HQ54 gun because there is all of one 56 NQ gun on the MBs right now) per 2~ seconds is made up in spades by the boost to damage literally everything else gets, including Wildfire.

Trying to dance back and forth with Gauss Barrel causes you to lose a flat 2 shots due to the 3 second cast as well as any Autos you would have fired just doesn't make sense to me.
In a fight with extended periods of running, I can see dropping Gauss Barrel as a viable tactic to keep DPS up, but i cannot see how wasting 3 seconds every 20 seconds to put on GB for a Gauss Round is more DPS than simply staying in GB until movement gives you reason to take it off.

Also, yes I'm fully aware than the MCH/BRD weapons are a flat -6 compared to like level weapons for all other Jobs including tanks.

PS: Don't go trying to throw those Reddit parses around as "proof", as i pointed out last time, the test was flawed in that he only tested once per mode and for differing duration's.

If WM/GB didn't disable autos it would be fine. The cast timer is more than enough to limit mobility for the damage tradeoff. Not like either class is close to mnk/drg/blm damage wise for this to be an overpowered buff. Remove the cast timer but add a cool down on the stance so that we can trade mobility for damage at a whim, but still dealing with consequences if we change stance at a wrong time.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

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'-'. I assume you do not know the ins and outs of MCN dps. Let me enlighten you. Under the effect of rapid fire, gauss barrel is instant, there is no 3 second cast. So, while you are mid fight, you line up b4b, hawkeye, rapid fire, and wild fire. While the rapid fire is up you can go in to use gauss barrel for ricochet and gauss round, use the procs you gain from rapid fire, then drop it back off for 90s until the next rapid fire. This is not an argument, it is proven already gauss barrel for an entire fight is a dps loss, no gauss barrel at all is a dps loss. The optimal way to play MCN right now is rapid fire stance dancing.

http://puu.sh/iDkEm/8cf80d3afa.jpg
(using 160 for crit/det, dont need the acc from i180.)
Yours truly, the short lala MCN.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

Losing 185 damage (at 57 with a HQ54 gun because there is all of one 56 NQ gun on the MBs right now) per 2~ seconds is made up in spades by the boost to damage literally everything else gets, including Wildfire.

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Not having played MCH at all, I can only comment on math. You're doing 185 on average with a 2.8 weapon? If we say the average GCD is somewhere around 2.45 to account for SS, then you need to be doing (2.45/2.8)*185 extra damage per GCD under Gauss Barrel in order for it to make sense using it. That's 161.875 *extra* damage that Gauss Barrel would need to give you every GCD for it to be worth the loss in AA damage, right? Extra damage from Gauss Barrel is 20%, 161.875 is 20% of 809.375. So, in a perfect world with no movement, you would need to be doing 809 damage per GCD, not including AA, before GB becomes worth it, based on your 185 average damage with a 2.8 weapon. And of course, Raging Strikes and Hawk's Eye can't help you reach this number, because they would also boost the 185 number.

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Originally Posted by Ephier

Under the effect of rapid fire, gauss barrel is instant, there is no 3 second cast

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This i did not know. Given how it states Weaponskills, i had assumed Gauss Barrel would not be included, so thanks for that.

A lot of the ability we have gotten not just from MCH but also other dps will get patch. All we can do right now is spam every single corner of the site about how the dev team fck up and we need our stuff fix. I say drowned drown the lodestone with complaints and what needs to be done.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

This i did not know. Given how it states Weaponskills, i had assumed Gauss Barrel would not be included, so thanks for that.

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It works on everything, even mounting is instant. Tool tips lie until they are tested and proven. Look at WAR's Raw Intuition for an example...

That aside, yes, even healers out DPS MCH easily. Basing a job around 80% RNG procs (Which are not even that powerful when compared to BRD and the free BL resets) really isn't good gameplay and it never was. Reload/Ammo (And obviously Gauss) needs to be buffed if they are going to keep this route in order to make MCH feasible in a raid environment where people will be dodging mechanics/not dying and losing procs until they get used to the encounters.

I might be crazy since I'm enjoying MCH, depsite the fact that it isn't well designed...

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Originally Posted by popotaro

I might be crazy since I'm enjoying MCH, depsite the fact that it isn't well designed...

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I'm enjoying it too this far, but it's weak as hell and it surely will be really painful to play in high level like Alexander...

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Originally Posted by Sylve

This i did not know. Given how it states Weaponskills, i had assumed Gauss Barrel would not be included, so thanks for that.

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It's said that it's maybe a bug, you can instant cast anything (besides LB), that includes teleport/recall and summon your chocobo companion

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Originally Posted by Asierid

It works on everything, even mounting is instant. Tool tips lie until they are tested and proven. Look at WAR's Raw Intuition for an example...

That aside, yes, even healers out DPS MCH easily. Basing a job around 80% RNG procs (Which are not even that powerful when compared to BRD and the free BL resets) really isn't good gameplay and it never was. Reload/Ammo (And obviously Gauss) needs to be buffed if they are going to keep this route in order to make MCH feasible in a raid environment where people will be dodging mechanics/not dying and losing procs until they get used to the encounters.

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Then as i was speculating to my FC since i saw the potencies, SE intentionally put our potencies at the lowest level so they could later buff the numbers if it proved too weak.
The mechanics of the class is incredibly fun to me, And although i sincerely doubt I'm being outdps'd by Healers when playing properly, if the numbers need to go up then they need to go up.
Not because the class is fundamentally broken, but rather because SE did not want to create a situation where everyone flocks to Machinist because it was blatantly overpowered.
I have a feeling the Astrologian may be in a similar boat.

Remember, Its far easier to buff than it is to nerf. Could you imagine if MCH was released in an OP state then nerfed, what the Forums would have been like? The rage would be intense. It'd be worse than the current crop of "OMG MCH is worthless!" threads ... Be a tad more amusing though.

We don't need new skills or a complete overhaul, just tweak the numbers (Lower a few cooldowns, give more potency/strength to certain skills).

I was under the impression that Gauss Barrel was intended to be situational, to be used neither permanently or never at all. Under this pretense, giving skills more potency or lower cooldowns could tip Gauss Barrel into being too strong and always having it on as a neccesity (it is a multiplier after all, not a static increase).

It would make sense from a balance point of view that we have quite low potency skills, simillar to bard. Right now, stat weights aren't known, MCH and BRD weapons have far lower weapon damage than other classes, and with the change to DET it means later game Auto Attacks will be far less weighted in your DPS.

In terms of how the class plays and is intended to feel, it's absolutely fine. The problems are that their debuffs aren't too great (on the surface), and the DPS they dish out doesn't seem be on par (on dummies). Maybe we will see a buff in the future, maybe we haven't gotten far enough into the expansion to realise how much they can actually bring.

Right now though there is a more concerning issue.

The damn hip pack model doesn't change with gear and always stays the same.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

Snip.

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Correct. When NIN was released the request for a nerf bat was unreal. Everyone complained about how broken they were, and yes they were at their time of release. Top DPS in the game, 0 resource issues and they got nerfed. While the nerf they received was barely a slap on the wrist a few NIN were unsettled by it. I believe releasing something underpowered and buffing it later is a much better course of action. Remove animosity instead of creating it.