Lore Question: Killing Poachers, why? Hypocritical?

So, recently doing leves in Gridania, I did the "Open Season" and "The Goodwill Traders" quests for the first time. Basically, they require to you kill several miqo'te on sight, because they're allegedly guilty of poaching, "one of the most severe crimes".

This strikes me as a pretty harsh penalty, especially considering most of combat in the game is some form of poaching, and even the legal killing sanctioned by leves is so commonplace as to question why an arbitrary body, the Adventurer's Guild, can say it's okay for me to kill raptors and toads, but it's not okay for Raptor and Toad Poacher too. From a lore perspective, doesn't this make PCs a) hypocrites and b) deserving of being killed on sight?

It reminds me of many of the quests I came across in my brief time playing WoW. "These guys are low level bandits of some type, so it's okay to slaughter them. This person stole something from me, so go ahead and kill her and take it back. These harpies were here first, but they're ambushing us when we get close, so shred them with this thresher." There were a few that seemed pretty weak in terms of rationale, that made my PC seem either a ruthless mercenary, or simply dumb, and the poacher leves are similar in my mind (not quite as bad as the latter two examples, just there to illustrate the point).

The stock response on games like WoW was, "Well, they attack me on sight anyway, so I'm just defending myself," which is pretty flimsy rationale for the game to give you!


The two leves are below, any others of this nature people have come across?

http://ffxiv.zam.com/en/guildleve.html?ffxivguildleve=12530

http://ffxiv.zam.com/en/guildleve.html?ffxivguildleve=12484


Anyway, just a random lore question, and I'm surely overthinking it. Just curious for opinions!

Short Answer: You can't expect Gridanians to be sane.

Long Answer: Poachers are a type of enemy, much like you would see the Wavekin slugs come in forms such as Sea Hare and Sea Slug, you'll also see types of The Spoken. When it comes to Spoken that are of the 5 main races, you'll mostly see poachers, pirates, bandits, and imperials. You are correct in your assumption that all forms of farming in this game are, in fact, poaching. Hell, Gridania has asked me to go poaching for them several times.

If you're looking for a way to reconcile it, take the lore back to Guildleves. The name Guildleve is just what it sounds like, the association of the guild is giving you leave to take on what must be done - the necessities, options, and required actions have been carefully examined and allowed by the guild. Poachers, however, are operating outside of the society of the guild and killing the creatures of the wood with impunity. The elementals are probably pissed - and we don't want that; so get out there and tear those miqo'te apart.

You aren't over-thinking it. You are over-expecting it. Leves were put in as filler content. Poorly thought out, repeatable filler.

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Originally Posted by Ferth

You aren't over-thinking it. You are over-expecting it. Leves were put in as filler content. Poorly thought out, repeatable filler.

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Filler??!!! Did you ever check any trailers? xD The game were gonna be ALL about guildleves!

No one dies in this game, they just KO'd.

You make a good point but you are playing a video game. Aren't almost all games guilty of things like this?

I kill them because if I didn't, they'd kill me. Plus the SP is good.

RE Lore: Anyone who kills anything without direct permission of the Wood is a poacher. If the Wood Wailers didn't take care of them, the Forest would go into a mad rage and kill everyone in the Twelveswood.

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Originally Posted by ShinChuck

So, recently doing leves in Gridania, I did the "Open Season" and "The Goodwill Traders" quests for the first time. Basically, they require to you kill several miqo'te on sight, because they're allegedly guilty of poaching, "one of the most severe crimes".

This strikes me as a pretty harsh penalty, especially considering most of combat in the game is some form of poaching, and even the legal killing sanctioned by leves is so commonplace as to question why an arbitrary body, the Adventurer's Guild, can say it's okay for me to kill raptors and toads, but it's not okay for Raptor and Toad Poacher too. From a lore perspective, doesn't this make PCs a) hypocrites and b) deserving of being killed on sight?

It reminds me of many of the quests I came across in my brief time playing WoW. "These guys are low level bandits of some type, so it's okay to slaughter them. This person stole something from me, so go ahead and kill her and take it back. These harpies were here first, but they're ambushing us when we get close, so shred them with this thresher." There were a few that seemed pretty weak in terms of rationale, that made my PC seem either a ruthless mercenary, or simply dumb, and the poacher leves are similar in my mind (not quite as bad as the latter two examples, just there to illustrate the point).

The stock response on games like WoW was, "Well, they attack me on sight anyway, so I'm just defending myself," which is pretty flimsy rationale for the game to give you!


The two leves are below, any others of this nature people have come across?

http://ffxiv.zam.com/en/guildleve.ht...uildleve=12530

http://ffxiv.zam.com/en/guildleve.ht...uildleve=12484


Anyway, just a random lore question, and I'm surely overthinking it. Just curious for opinions!

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Maybe these poachers are Garleans or at the very least bandits. Poaching isn't necessarily killing some protected species, it is poaching when you kill game that belongs to someone else especially if you are their enemy/an outlaw.

I don't know how you could think raptors/toads are a protected species in Gridania I mean sure they are the nature oriented city-state, but it isn't like they are all rabid vegans.

These &*^%$&%$ are killing all our Raptors and selling their hides to foreigners! Not just any foreigners either but our sworn enemies who hate freedom and want to destroy all of Eorzea, and I suppose we should just roll over and let them pick the forest clean just because we have a history of legally and responsibly hunting animals on our own land? Preventing overpopulation and oh yeah funding the entire Moogle Forestry Service, what a bunch of hypocrites we all are. Well when was the last time you personally, Shin Chuck, did anything for a marmot?!

What about all the leatherworks who rely on those raptors for Gridanian JOBS!!!! I guess their families should go hungry just because you feel sorry for some no good dirty poachers.

This blame-Gridania-first crowd makes me sick!

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Originally Posted by Murugan

Maybe these poachers are Garleans or at the very least bandits. Poaching isn't necessarily killing some protected species, it is poaching when you kill game that belongs to someone else especially if you are their enemy/an outlaw.

I don't know how you could think raptors/toads are a protected species in Gridania I mean sure they are the nature oriented city-state, but it isn't like they are all rabid vegans.

These &*^%$&%$ are killing all our Raptors and selling their hides to foreigners! Not just any foreigners either but our sworn enemies who hate freedom and want to destroy all of Eorzea, and I suppose we should just roll over and let them pick the forest clean just because we have a history of legally and responsibly hunting animals on our own land? Preventing overpopulation and oh yeah funding the entire Moogle Forestry Service, what a bunch of hypocrites we all are. Well when was the last time you personally, Shin Chuck, did anything for a marmot?!

What about all the leatherworks who rely on those raptors for Gridanian JOBS!!!! I guess their families should go hungry just because you feel sorry for some no good dirty poachers.

This blame-Gridania-first crowd makes me sick!

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I'm on board with this.

Whatever they are, I want to wear tiger-print pants like they do!

Simple. Our brand of killing and naming is city-state approved. theirs is not

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Originally Posted by Griss

Simple. Our brand of killing and naming is city-state approved. theirs is not

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

I kill them because if I didn't, they'd kill me. Plus the SP is good.

RE Lore: Anyone who kills anything without direct permission of the Wood is a poacher. If the Wood Wailers didn't take care of them, the Forest would go into a mad rage and kill everyone in the Twelveswood.

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That seems to be what it boils down to! That doesn't even seem explain why we can *randomly* do it, and they cannot. I understand leves being sanctioned, but the various quests unrelated to official business, and all the mobs we randomly slay for drops, SP, or just because we want to are not explained!

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Originally Posted by Murugan

Maybe these poachers are Garleans or at the very least bandits. Poaching isn't necessarily killing some protected species, it is poaching when you kill game that belongs to someone else especially if you are their enemy/an outlaw.

I don't know how you could think raptors/toads are a protected species in Gridania I mean sure they are the nature oriented city-state, but it isn't like they are all rabid vegans.

These &*^%$&%$ are killing all our Raptors and selling their hides to foreigners! Not just any foreigners either but our sworn enemies who hate freedom and want to destroy all of Eorzea, and I suppose we should just roll over and let them pick the forest clean just because we have a history of legally and responsibly hunting animals on our own land? Preventing overpopulation and oh yeah funding the entire Moogle Forestry Service, what a bunch of hypocrites we all are. Well when was the last time you personally, Shin Chuck, did anything for a marmot?!

What about all the leatherworks who rely on those raptors for Gridanian JOBS!!!! I guess their families should go hungry just because you feel sorry for some no good dirty poachers.

This blame-Gridania-first crowd makes me sick!

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Hah hah, hey, I'm FROM Gridania! It's my hometown! I would be doing leves there all the time if my crew wasn't so Ul'dah-attached.

Anyway, yours is the best answer yet. Now, as far as I can tell, in-game we don't know WHY poaching is an offense Gridania imposes a death penalty on, nor do we know the poachers' affiliations, and we don't even know that they don't sell raptor leather back to those leather workers anyway, but it's definitely a lot more reasonable then anything else the game gives us!

I fully concede I'm overthinking this, and, like so many quests in WoW and Rift and XI and PSU, it's just fun sometimes to ask the community about lore issues and see the theories behind it. Heck, the Star Wars community has filled in just about every given plothole in the new trilogy!

Poaching without the forests consent (usually for money or non survival reasons) would probably incur greenwrath, or, anger from the forest. Gridania works for the forest with its permission and tries to protect from the forest. See con and lnc guilds

Also it seems that those with the Echo, adventurers, don't effect certain things.

We chop down trees for lumber and crow feathers(?), and they still stand.
We Mine away mineral deposits, to find them at the same location later.
Skin a marmot and merely minutes later a new one will appear, I don't think they breed quite that fast.

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Originally Posted by Murugan

Maybe these poachers are Garleans or at the very least bandits. Poaching isn't necessarily killing some protected species, it is poaching when you kill game that belongs to someone else especially if you are their enemy/an outlaw.

I don't know how you could think raptors/toads are a protected species in Gridania I mean sure they are the nature oriented city-state, but it isn't like they are all rabid vegans.

These &*^%$&%$ are killing all our Raptors and selling their hides to foreigners! Not just any foreigners either but our sworn enemies who hate freedom and want to destroy all of Eorzea, and I suppose we should just roll over and let them pick the forest clean just because we have a history of legally and responsibly hunting animals on our own land? Preventing overpopulation and oh yeah funding the entire Moogle Forestry Service, what a bunch of hypocrites we all are. Well when was the last time you personally, Shin Chuck, did anything for a marmot?!

What about all the leatherworks who rely on those raptors for Gridanian JOBS!!!! I guess their families should go hungry just because you feel sorry for some no good dirty poachers.

This blame-Gridania-first crowd makes me sick!

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Are there still jobs available at the Gridania public relations department?

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Originally Posted by Volsung

Poaching without the forests consent (usually for money or non survival reasons) would probably incur greenwrath, or, anger from the forest. Gridania works for the forest with its permission and tries to protect from the forest. See con and lnc guilds

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But we don't know, it could be survival of sorts, and that doesn't explain why adventurers killing mobs outside of sanctioned Gridania leves and operations are allowed to do so and not marked for death upon doing it.

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Originally Posted by Halvaard_Vidan

Also it seems that those with the Echo, adventurers, don't effect certain things.

We chop down trees for lumber and crow feathers(?), and they still stand.
We Mine away mineral deposits, to find them at the same location later.
Skin a marmot and merely minutes later a new one will appear, I don't think they breed quite that fast.

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Now this one's interesting. Could the Echo have something to do with it? The flipside is, if you do the Gridania starting storyline (spoilers coming), you, as an adventurer, do get infected with the Greenwrath by angering the forest and killing creatures. It's also apparently pretty obvious when you have done so.

That being the case, we can safely assume the poachers are not incurring the Greenwrath, and therefore the "kill on sight" order seems highly unjustified, or we should be getting it a lot more often then we do, and it's a bit of a plothole.

Yes, this is overthinking it, ultimately, you don't need a serious rationale for every quest, you're just supposed to take them at face value. But as one of the few quests asking you to *kill other humanoids*, it does strike me as odd they wouldn't try a bit harder to justify it!

Then again, most MMOs don't go that far in explanations anyway (WoW being pretty guilty of it!).

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Originally Posted by ShinChuck

But we don't know, it could be survival of sorts, and that doesn't explain why adventurers killing mobs outside of sanctioned Gridania leves and operations are allowed to do so and not marked for death upon doing it.

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eh? its called a poacher..... meaning one who poaches >.>
No need to matrix things that are what they are, outright.

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Originally Posted by Volsung

eh? its called a poacher..... meaning one who poaches >.>
No need to matrix things that are what they are, outright.

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Nothing Matrix-like here! The facts are a) we don't know their motives and are never told, which may be survival, and b) we poach all the time, with many of our kills being unsanctioned by Gridania (and therefore, the forest). We might not have the name, but we are, practically speaking, poachers ourselves, going by the game's definition of it.

When I'm offered the chance to kill Miqo'te, I savor the moment and don't ask questions.

We kill poachers for the same reason we kill pirates; they're inherent evildoers deserving of death.

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Originally Posted by ShinChuck

That seems to be what it boils down to! That doesn't even seem explain why we can *randomly* do it, and they cannot. I understand leves being sanctioned, but the various quests unrelated to official business, and all the mobs we randomly slay for drops, SP, or just because we want to are not explained!





Hah hah, hey, I'm FROM Gridania! It's my hometown! I would be doing leves there all the time if my crew wasn't so Ul'dah-attached.

Anyway, yours is the best answer yet. Now, as far as I can tell, in-game we don't know WHY poaching is an offense Gridania imposes a death penalty on, nor do we know the poachers' affiliations, and we don't even know that they don't sell raptor leather back to those leather workers anyway, but it's definitely a lot more reasonable then anything else the game gives us!

I fully concede I'm overthinking this, and, like so many quests in WoW and Rift and XI and PSU, it's just fun sometimes to ask the community about lore issues and see the theories behind it. Heck, the Star Wars community has filled in just about every given plothole in the new trilogy!

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No we do know why, it says in the guildleves themselves that they are picking the forest clean and selling the hides to merchants in the far east (where Garlemond is located).

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Originally Posted by Murugan

No we do know why, it says in the guildleves themselves that they are picking the forest clean and selling the hides to merchants in the far east (where Garlemond is located).

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Ohhh, good catch, I somehow overlooked that. Still... we do all sorts of things along those lines all the time! I definitely don't just sell my stuff to Gridania, I've sold it pretty far and wide.

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Originally Posted by Len

When I'm offered the chance to kill Miqo'te, I savor the moment and don't ask questions.

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Hah, that's roughly what my girlfriend said. I can't say it's the worst quest... mithra, I had no problem with. Miqo'te, well, SE just decided to tramp miqo'te NPCs up to obnoxious levels...

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Originally Posted by ShinChuck

Ohhh, good catch, I somehow overlooked that. Still... we do all sorts of things along those lines all the time! I definitely don't just sell my stuff to Gridania, I've sold it pretty far and wide.

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You only sell stuff to Merchants located in the free cities though, they are poaching and selling it to a foreign market. So if we don't stop them all the Raptors and Toads will be gone, and we won't have any hides to supply our leatherworkers/economy. It is economic/ecological warfare to weaken the city-states and make the Garlean invasion that much easier.

It is obvious that Gaius Van Baelsar himself is behind this sinister plot, and this guildleve is the linchpin in Gridania's efforts to stave off a full scale invasion! So my god man, you have to stop those Mi'qote!!!

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Originally Posted by Murugan

Maybe these poachers are Garleans or at the very least bandits. Poaching isn't necessarily killing some protected species, it is poaching when you kill game that belongs to someone else especially if you are their enemy/an outlaw.

I don't know how you could think raptors/toads are a protected species in Gridania I mean sure they are the nature oriented city-state, but it isn't like they are all rabid vegans.

These &*^%$&%$ are killing all our Raptors and selling their hides to foreigners! Not just any foreigners either but our sworn enemies who hate freedom and want to destroy all of Eorzea, and I suppose we should just roll over and let them pick the forest clean just because we have a history of legally and responsibly hunting animals on our own land? Preventing overpopulation and oh yeah funding the entire Moogle Forestry Service, what a bunch of hypocrites we all are. Well when was the last time you personally, Shin Chuck, did anything for a marmot?!

What about all the leatherworks who rely on those raptors for Gridanian JOBS!!!! I guess their families should go hungry just because you feel sorry for some no good dirty poachers.

This blame-Gridania-first crowd makes me sick!

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I lol'd a lot.

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Originally Posted by Volsung

Poaching without the forests consent (usually for money or non survival reasons) would probably incur greenwrath, or, anger from the forest. Gridania works for the forest with its permission and tries to protect from the forest. See con and lnc guilds

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As far as gridania is concerned our characters have probably acrud a seething ammount of greenwrath, I don't ask no elementals for its grace before I kill it...

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Originally Posted by Jynx

As far as gridania is concerned our characters have probably acrud a seething ammount of greenwrath, I don't ask no elementals for its grace before I kill it...

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I think as far as our characters go its assumed we don't kill just for the funsies or to sell on a black market.

Heheh, yeah, as expected, what it boils down to is we have to make wild speculations to make it work, with still no answer why *our* poaching is acceptable! Pretty hard to recommend the death penalty based on that! Gridania, your legal system is all sorts of jacked up.

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Originally Posted by Murugan

You only sell stuff to Merchants located in the free cities though, they are poaching and selling it to a foreign market. So if we don't stop them all the Raptors and Toads will be gone, and we won't have any hides to supply our leatherworkers/economy. It is economic/ecological warfare to weaken the city-states and make the Garlean invasion that much easier.

It is obvious that Gaius Van Baelsar himself is behind this sinister plot, and this guildleve is the linchpin in Gridania's efforts to stave off a full scale invasion! So my god man, you have to stop those Mi'qote!!!

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lolol, best response yet! I'm in favor of this being added to in-game lore.

This is a sad, and little known fact:

Guild halls are actually little more than gang hideouts. The Adventurer's guild and the Poacher's guild have been at war for ages. Those that sign up with one guild are sent out to hunt down and mercilessly kill members of the other.

The only difference between those Mi'qote and us is where they get their leves from.

I know this game is supposed to be medieval-like but I actually agree with OP. I generally don't like how this game handles defeating opponents/killing via its lore. (ffxi did the best I've seen in an mmo, leaving much to the user's imagination)

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Originally Posted by Volsung

I think as far as our characters go its assumed we don't kill just for the funsies or to sell on a black market.

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Even so in thing such as the Lancer quests they pretty much assure me I'm garnering a terrible ammount of greenwrath for doing stuff in the forest. They wont even give me a mask that makes them unable to acrue greenwrath.

T-T

I just noticed I've been putting the apostrophe in the wrong place all this time when I've written "mi'qote". Not only have I been slaughtering them by the dozens, I've been getting their name wrong. My bad, cat ladies!

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Originally Posted by Zantetsuken

This is a sad, and little known fact:

Guild halls are actually little more than gang hideouts. The Adventurer's guild and the Poacher's guild have been at war for ages. Those that sign up with one guild are sent out to hunt down and mercilessly kill members of the other.

The only difference between those Mi'qote and us is where they get their leves from.

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Hah, I like this one too. I want to join the Poacher's Guild, totally because of my conviction and not because I want to be the only male in a guild with dozens of scantily clad mithra with no other friends in the entire world.

Of course, then I have the rest of the world getting "kill on site" orders regarding me... eek!

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Originally Posted by Ixador

I know this game is supposed to be medieval-like but I actually agree with OP. I generally don't like how this game handles defeating opponents/killing via its lore. (ffxi did the best I've seen in an mmo, leaving much to the user's imagination)

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Thanks! This topic was done mostly in jest and to play devil's advocate, but I think there's genuine truth to it too. I'm used to WoW or Rift sending me out to enact the death penalty on random mobs with flimsy rationale, but not in XI, and so, it surprised me to see it coming from XIV.

But again, mostly just done for the joke value and for the lore debates. :D