Warrior pretty much the Go-To tank for now.

Highest DPS, BY FAR? Check.

Highest Burst, BY FAR? Check.

Comparable Survivability to Paladin? Check.

Incredible Self Healing? Double Check.

Just waiting for everyone to realize it and start the long forum threads about nerf warriors, buff x tank here.

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Originally Posted by wonka11

Highest DPS, BY FAR? Check.

Highest Burst, BY FAR? Check.

Comparable Survivability to Paladin? Check.

Incredible Self Healing? Double Check.

Just waiting for everyone to realize it and start the long forum threads about nerf warriors, buff x tank here.

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Highest DPS? Yep
Burst? Why yes, thank you for restating the first point, you're obviously not trying to be biased.
Comparable Survivability to Paladin? If you ignore shields and the new paladin abilities, and a few of the paladin ARR ones, sure.
Incredible Self Healing? Not that much greater than a DRK or Paladin, plus self healing is oneof the worst things to judge a tank on. Also PLD self healing was buffed pretty well too, doubly so since their healing can be used supportive.

Nice try though.

The PLD healing ability (Clemency I think it's called?) is really nice. Heals both a party member and themself. And then there's that awesome party wide shield.

Not that WAR is bad but PLDs are shining too.

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Originally Posted by Tila

Highest DPS? Yep
Burst? Why yes, thank you for restating the first point, you're obviously not trying to be biased.
Comparable Survivability to Paladin? If you ignore shields and the new paladin abilities, and a few of the paladin ARR ones, sure.
Incredible Self Healing? Not that much greater than a DRK or Paladin, plus self healing is oneof the worst things to judge a tank on. Also PLD self healing was buffed pretty well too, doubly so since their healing can be used supportive.

Nice try though.

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If you don't think warrior self healing is better than PLD and a significant ability of the class, you either don't know much about warrior, don't know much about pld, or don't know much about anything.

Oh look you're a dragon, thats adorable. (sarcasm).

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Originally Posted by wonka11

If you don't think warrior self healing is better than PLD and a significant ability of the class, you either don't know much about warrior, don't know much about pld, or don't know much about anything.

Oh look you're a dragon, thats adorable. (sarcasm).

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How nice, attacking the person rather than the argument. Clearly you are an intelligent person who I would love to have nice discussion with. That said, WAR self healing is better than PLD, but

1. Not by some godly margin like you seem to think
2. Self healing is the worst thing to judge tanking ability on
3. DRK is comparable and arguably better self healing (which is why DRK isnt that great, self healing for tanks sucks which is why it was removed as the primary warrior tanking mechanic)

And Oh look, a male Roe warrior. How original.

No need to argue folks. Nothing has really changed.

When in a raid that actually matters:

MT - PLD
OT - WAR (and now DRK)

A warrior can do a 1200 potency heal on themselves every 60 seconds and thrill, IB's heal is insignificant in raids and you use it for its 20% damage reduction BEFORE taking tank busters. Your defiance effects none of these abilities, neither does convalescence.

A paladin can do a 1200 potency heal that they can cast twice without pausing, and against after a sheltron and a riot blade combo + passive mana. They can cast it on other party members if they want to and enjoy 50% of the heal themselves. Convalescence effects this (which is 30% on a paladin). Both scale off strength and weapon damage (not mind, etc).

Warriors do quite well but Paladins are far and away ahead of them in defenses now (sheltron is amazing, its basically a mini CD you can use on every tank buster, in addition to giving 10% of their health to themselves and others as a damage shield (basically half a thrill of battle for all of the melee).

Warriors are great, but mitigation comparable to Paladin? Nope

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Originally Posted by m3eansean

MT - PLD
OT - WAR (and now DRK)

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Actually, the correct answer is:

MT - PLD/WAR/DRK
OT - PLD/WAR/DRK

There's a time and a place for all combinations.

In terms of mitigation on WAR:

IB (physical + magical) = Sheltron (physical)
Raw Intuition (physical) = Rampart (physical + magical)

Raw Intuition is currently bugged, though, so it's actually significantly better than Rampart (and possibly one of the strongest CDs in the game, especially paired with Conv). It also grants you 1 stack of Wrath, which is more useful than it seems.

Clemency = Equilibrium

Clemency requires a GCD of no damage to cast, unlike IB or Equilibrium, which is it's downside. In terms of pure survivability, Clemency is stronger but not necessarily better.

Divine Veil can't really be compared to anything WAR has, so I guess PLD's got that going for them, though I think this is better as a OT defensive skill than a MT one... dunno the range on it though.

Vengeance = Sentinel

Thrill = Bulwark I guess sorta not really but they're both basically as useful as eachother.

I'd say both tanks are both equal in terms of survivability. PLD has a shield but IB is up more often than Sheltron. Dunno anything about DRK, but I imagine DRK is fine too.

In the end, does it really make a difference? All tanks do the same basic thing, and if you know how to do it, it will all work out.

Paladin pretty much the go-to tank for now.

My reasoning is simple and no maths in the world can change it, it has always been the go-to tank and people take forever to change.

Clemency is without outside buffs, healing for the same as equilibrium (fact--there are posts and pics of it hitting around 2.7K at level 58 and scaling off strength and weapon damage). You can cast it twice without any pause (also a fact) and you recover enough mana to cast it again after 1 sheltron and riot blade combo. If you look at your math before, half was from one ability, which is something a paladin can spam in a jiff, and something that is effected by cova (which paladins have a better version of. There is no defensive cd warriors have an improved version of that matters, given foresight is a joke). If you think IB heals mean anything in raiding, then I laugh at you--IB is used strictly for its 20% debuff before a tank buster (you should be topped off before that). It honestly sounds like you are speaking from dungeon experience, which means nothing in raiding.

PLD has more defenses and we are the DPS tank, always have been. I don't see the problem there.

DRK is below the two, however.

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Originally Posted by Asierid

PLD has more defenses and we are the DPS tank, always have been. I don't see the problem there.

DRK is below the two, however.

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Its laughable. Gets a 1 minute gcd heal and ignores paladins can cast that more or less at will...AND on party members (while gaining half that heal back themselves). Paladin is incredible versatile now. You could argue a warrior heals better in a quick burst cause everything is off gcd, but beyond that? Nope.

Obvious troll is obvious. Please stop feeding it.

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Originally Posted by Faytte

Its laughable. Gets a 1 minute gcd heal and ignores paladins can cast that more or less at will...AND on party members (while gaining half that heal back themselves). Paladin is incredible versatile now. You could argue a warrior heals better in a quick burst cause everything is off gcd, but beyond that? Nope.

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And even then, self healing is pretty much the lowest form of mitigation for tanks. Even if WAR is best at it (which is highly debatable), it doesn't mean all that much.

DRK can heal for 400 potency every 3rd GCD. Not as good as Clemency, but better than WAR's heal.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan94

DRK can heal for 400 potency every 3rd GCD. Not as good as Clemency, but better than WAR's heal.

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Its way better to absorb the damage completely then to heal for 10% of it.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Its way better to absorb the damage completely then to heal for 10% of it.

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Equilibrium doesn't absorb damage.

If you're talking in General, DRK has plenty of defensive options.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan94

DRK can heal for 400 potency every 3rd GCD. Not as good as Clemency, but better than WAR's heal.

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There's no way DRK with Grit active has enough mana to dark arts every single soul eater unless we're talking AoE tanking with blood price active. In which case you should probably not be doing soul eater at all.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

There's no way DRK with Grit active has enough mana to dark arts every single soul eater.

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That's true. But you can still do the equivalent of Equilibrium in 7.5 seconds and rebuild your MP within a few more GCDs and do it again. Or you can settle for the 260 potency heal for free. Like I said, not as good as Clemency, but better than Equilibrium. I'm not saying that self heal makes DRKs great tanks (though it helps), I'm just refuting the OP's claim that WAR's have "incredible self healing" when both PLD and DRK are better.

who really cares what is best at what? nerds are going to be nerds and nerd hard about optimization and everyone else will be over here like wow the game is so much fun i love being <insert sub optimal class here>

I'd just like to say that a significant portion of the Warrior's self healing is just over healing. So, it really is not something that matters much.

If anything, the PLD's heal is less likely to over heal because you can more accurately target and time it. Also, it's funny people aren't mentioning a CC skill like Stoneskin when talking about healing. Plenty of chances to use it (at least in ARR content, we don't know about HW yet), no over healing, scales based on HP, can target anyone. Not to mention Divine Veil which is huge when popped as a raid is grouped up before an AoE.

Also, outside of Divine Veil, none are limited by CD. They're limited by MP and PLDs now have 2 means of recovering MP quickly.

I'd say PLD has a clear advantage in that aspect of their utility.

As for damage, I actually don't think the gap is that large but we're going to have to see the numbers after people are geared and the content is released. Depending on how much time they could spend in Sword Oath, PLDs were dealing more damage than WARs pre-HW. WARs were buffed in terms of DPS in HW but so were PLDs. Adding a high potency DoT and 80 potency to their main tanking combo (because being realistic, PLDs are not going to Rage of Halone outside of initial snap aggro and strength debuff) is a a big deal.

In terms of their defensive CDs, this was never a debate. The availability of IB was one of WAR's advantages pre-HW but PLDs got Sheltron to weave into their dCD rotation in HW so their availability of dCDs is comparable now. I don't see either lacking the ability to consistently have a dCD ready for an attack that needs it so the argument is pointless anyways. I just know I'll be happy not cursing RNG when Bulwark doesn't block what I need it to.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

There's no way DRK with Grit active has enough mana to dark arts every single soul eater unless we're talking AoE tanking with blood price active. In which case you should probably not be doing soul eater at all.

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not every single one, but since syphon gives back half the cost of dark arts...we can do it every other.

I will always main WAR as I love the class. I'm currently leveling my WAR to 54 to get Fell Cleave but I notice that I haven't been able to get the 9 gcd in berserk even with with 390 sks, which is the minimum to achieve this. Anyone still able to pull it off? I also noticed that the pacification cuts off the Butcher Block animation a lot earlier than it used to. Was there a secret nerf/buff to sks that we don't know about because a lot of our damage is based on how much hits we can get in Berserk.

Skillspeed got downscaled so with around 400 SS you have like 2,47 GCD. With 470 SS~ you'll have 2,44 GCD which should be enough for 9 hits, though I didn't test it yet.

I, someone who mains Paladin, regularly talk to a person who (nearly religiously) mains Warrior and this person is actually worried about the Warrior current capability in comparison to the other two tanks. We kind of agree that it is two early to judge the effectiveness of Dark Knight, but we have some reasonable ideas on how Warrior and Paladin compare to each other a 60.

Paladin has gained roughly 34 (~162 to ~196 potency, RoH only vs GB -> RoH -> RA) in MT DpS per gcd and either 43 (GB-> RoH -> RA) and 52 (GB -> RAx2) OT DpS per gcd. This is a 21%/25% increase in Paladin DpS. Enmity generation drops from 683 per gcd to 451 (GB -> RoH -RA)/660 (GB -> RoHx2) per gcd from 683 per gcd (RoH spam) , but They also gained two utility abilities and a short defensive cooldown.

Warrior MT DpS has dropped by a few percent with how Wrath grants +parry rate instead of +crit rate. OT DpS has increased, but not nearly as much as the Paladin's.

Nothing has changed there either. PLD will be the go to job in any "long term" boss fight as OT compared to the other two tanks.

SO was already better given enough time, adding a dot to the mix as well as a decent damage combo just pushes those numbers further in PLD favor. Couple that with the "on demand" cooldown in IB for tanking and everything is pretty much the way it was in ARR.

Only question is where does DRK fit in all this. As it stands, it isn't looking too good.

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Originally Posted by Eye_Gore

In the end, does it really make a difference? All tanks do the same basic thing, and if you know how to do it, it will all work out.

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Don't be a fool! We must needs find out which tank class is the best—so all others can grovel at our feet for a chance at main tanking!

Kidding aside: WAR is cooler than Batman a.k.a. Bruce Wayne a.k.a. Bat-Man? a.k.a. the Dark Knight a.k.a. DRK so this discussion is over.

So basically they even more cemented the setup in stone.thats bad really really bad. no tank should have the MT role just cause his skills are far better than the skills from other tanks. they really need to change there something. but i am preaching this already a long time not that anything changes...

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Originally Posted by Tila

Highest DPS? Yep
Burst? Why yes, thank you for restating the first point, you're obviously not trying to be biased.

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I did read the entire thread, but something to point out to be a devil's advocate:

He didn't restate his first point; there's a difference between burst and DPS. Burst is how quickly you can pile up damage on demand, and DPS is sustained over the course of time.

It's actually different because even if you can knock the living bejeezus out of something, that may mean blowing all of your cooldowns and leaving you at subpar DPS for a while following the burst.

dots, bonus auto-attacks, good potency combos, stun on demand, best defensive cooldowns, best "ultimate" cooldown, protect, stoneskin, clemency, divine veil.

Damage, tanking, heals and shields: you want the class that does it all? You want Paladin!

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Originally Posted by Jandor

dots, bonus auto-attacks, good potency combos, stun on demand, best defensive cooldowns, best "ultimate" cooldown, protect, stoneskin, clemency, divine veil.

Damage, tanking, heals and shields: you want the class that does it all? You want Paladin!

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Shit Aoe dmg............
shit aoe aggro keeping.....

Stop feeding the troll.

First, he never bring you more information than "Of course, I am right, you're stupid to not see this".
Second, he didn't even respect other people to quote properly, always replacing by "You're wrong".
Third, it's at least the third topic where he spouts his nonsense

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Originally Posted by Zordrage

shit aoe aggro keeping.....

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Eh? "Flash moar" no longer works?

From what I see Paladin still has alot more mitigation, but Warrior wins hands down in terms of DPS.

Dark Knight I haven't really tried yet, but from what others have told me, they are guy in the middle, more mitigation than Warrior and less than Paladin, more DPS than Paladin and less warrior. Can't wait to try it after I get Paladin to 60.

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Originally Posted by Syfer22

Eh? "Flash moar" no longer works?

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AFAIK it's never been enough for the truly high end DPS that do single target. For example, if you've got a BLM and a MNK... Yes, Flash spam on a large group will keep the AoE-spamming BLM from pulling any, but if the monk decides to demolish one at a time.... you aren't going to hold hate using only flash if he's decent.

Generally though, and for 99% of the time in DF, I would call it 'sufficient'.


More generally about DRKs:
At level 60 in ilvl gear, it seems there are a select few that can really output a chunk of DPS. I would expect them to outdo the average duty finder DPSer, but these are not average tank players it's coming from.

As more people get to level cap and gear up, it will be interesting to see where the numbers fall...

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Originally Posted by Faytte

Clemency is without outside buffs, healing for the same as equilibrium (fact--there are posts and pics of it hitting around 2.7K at level 58 and scaling off strength and weapon damage). You can cast it twice without any pause (also a fact) and you recover enough mana to cast it again after 1 sheltron and riot blade combo. If you look at your math before, half was from one ability, which is something a paladin can spam in a jiff, and something that is effected by cova (which paladins have a better version of. There is no defensive cd warriors have an improved version of that matters, given foresight is a joke). If you think IB heals mean anything in raiding, then I laugh at you--IB is used strictly for its 20% debuff before a tank buster (you should be topped off before that). It honestly sounds like you are speaking from dungeon experience, which means nothing in raiding.

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I've actually critted for over 6.5k with Clemency (no Convalescence) at level 60 with 180 weapons. The best part about critting someone else for 6k+ is that I also gain back 3k+ hp myself. If we're at a point where I'm having to heal another party member, it almost goes without saying that I'm probably hurting for HP as well. Clemency is an incredibly strong support skill and despite the high mana cost I can keep using it just by spamming Sheltron off cd (restores 700+ mana) and throwing in some Riot Blade combos. Sheltron itself is an amazing cooldown considering that tank busters tend to lean toward physical damage. An automatic block once every 30 seconds is pretty strong, plus that 700+ mana restored is nothing to sneeze at. I'm really enjoying the enhanced utility that paladins have with the new skills. ^^

As far as warrior goes, I'm expecting to see Raw Intuition's auto crit heals get fixed and Fell Cleave to get beat with the nerf stick. A warrior on my server supposedly routinely hits for 11k+ with it, which just seems ridiculous. >.>

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

snip

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People keep forgetting that DPS will scale way better with gear for damage. So as of now, WAR seems OP. Get some gear, WAR wont be hitting as hard in comparison to DPS.

Wouldnt surprise me if people had said WAR was OP for DPS at the start of ARR if they hadnt been so under powered. That is to say, if we had the fixed warrior at ARR launch, people would comment its doing so much damage.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

AFAIK it's never been enough for the truly high end DPS that do single target. For example, if you've got a BLM and a MNK... Yes, Flash spam on a large group will keep the AoE-spamming BLM from pulling any, but if the monk decides to demolish one at a time.... you aren't going to hold hate using only flash if he's decent.

Generally though, and for 99% of the time in DF.

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WTFDIJR

Sounds like a terrible PLD. No way a MNK/BLM combo would ever pose a hate threat to a decent PLD.