Tanks leaving Dungeons/Trials

Yea,
Its become more often closer to heavensward. A lot of tanks are taking the initiative to leave dungeons before duties finished. Its really frustrating.

They would do troll stuff to provoke kicks. There needs to be more reward for tanks to come in and complete dungeons. But also harsher punishment for leaving early.

Maybe even put in profiles how often they leave a dungeon? its very important that people follow through.

They already have penalties in place. Please don't ask for more.

And there's already rewards for tanks doing high level stuff.

The one situation where I would be fine with it being increased is in the case of people who insta-bail from dungeons roulette gives them because they signed up for a daily bonus that's paid for filling their role wherever it's most needed, and by doing so they screw over people who specifically waited for that instance for what's often quite a long time. The 30 minute lockout is often nothing compared to the amount of others people's time they wasted. So in addition to the re-registration lockout itself which could stand as is, a set of guidelines that determine when someone becomes ineligible to register for roulettes for a period of time seems appropriate.

They can always queue for specific dungeons even with the loss of a daily roulette, it's just that roulette bonus they forfeited the right to earn for a day. If someone queues roulette, and dungeon pops and they have to run right then because of a family emergency, not being able to do that same roulette is not a problem for them. It's those others who treat a system that pays them to help others, as if the actual purpose of it is for others to help them get paid. People would seek out ways to abuse the system and effective counters to that could be established.

Someone loads into a random Dungeon via DF, and quits in the first minute without doing anything else- loses the ability to queue for that roulette and it shows similar to how it does when it's been completed to indicate the daily reward was received and no more are available until next day.

If they abuse the group to get a kick, hold up the run, etc and get reported, they lose the ability to use roulettes for a week or two.

Or, just track behind the scenes how many bail from roulettes regularly and leave as soon as they see what dungeon got selected- people who are the worst offenders at this and instabail 3 dungeons a week or more should lose roulette ability for longer.

No. I reserve the right to send DPS i recognize as being utterly useless back to the queue, leaving myself if I have to because criticizing a DPS player is a sin punishable by death apparently. Sucks for the other players, but tough luck.

Meh, it's not ideal, but at least they're leaving. It's the "Kick me penalty-free or I'll hold the group hostage" type of folks that bug me

Only if this penalty is applied to every role would I get behind it, I remember when I wanted to run PS but healers would instantly bail leaving me with two dps or one assuming they didn't also bail.
Its not specific roles that do this its specific people.

I'm not referring to people who find that their parties are incapable... I'm referring to those who leave without even checking their gear because they drew a dungeon that they knew was in the roulette pool and they decided to gamble on not getting it and the rest pay the consequences. In this case it's not about the people who stay it's all about the person who left 1 sec after it popped.

There's no way to punish those without punishing us tanks who excersize our right to avoid playing with people we don't want to.

In these situations are you able to assess this about them, and turn around and walk out the door in < 5 seconds after the instance started loading without anyone even having a chance to say a word first?

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Originally Posted by Urthdigger

There's no way to punish those without punishing us tanks who excersize our right to avoid playing with people we don't want to.

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I don't understand how you have this problem I could ask people if they want to run content and all day people would be up for running content with me just because I am a tank.
If you don't want to run with certain people from DF why are you even queuing with DF when its trivial for you not too?

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Originally Posted by PotatoWafflez

I don't understand how you have this problem I could ask people if they want to run content and all day people would be up for running content with me just because I am a tank.
If you don't want to run with certain people from DF why are you even queuing with DF when its trivial for you not too?

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yup I agree. but normally when I encounter a tank leaving its low level, new person message. and they cant queue as a party for their low level daily. I mainly tank and I normally will stay till the end, regardless if ppl are bickering and whining or new. I just keep pulling and let them sort it out. Some tanks leave because they are just in queue for a friend. its probably faster to do it that way than wait 30 mins for a dps queue.

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Originally Posted by Buff_Archer

In these situations are you able to assess this about them, and turn around and walk out the door in < 5 seconds after the instance started loading without anyone even having a chance to say a word first?

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I have a list of players I refuse to play with. Also when folks are using the wrong type of gear (caster on a brd, etc), or use acc to enter, say, a ilvl70 minimum dungeon with ilvl 50 left side gear.

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Originally Posted by PotatoWafflez

I don't understand how you have this problem I could ask people if they want to run content and all day people would be up for running content with me just because I am a tank.
If you don't want to run with certain people from DF why are you even queuing with DF when its trivial for you not too?

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CT mainly, don't always have 23 bored folks to make an alliance. And if I shout in Mor Dhona that's just as bad as DF.

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Originally Posted by Urthdigger

CT mainly, don't always have 23 bored folks to make an alliance. And if I shout in Mor Dhona that's just as bad as DF.

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Ugh I can't stand CT at the moment you have a stupidly large likelihood to wipe on Bone Dragon regardless of your alliance I would argue that CT is the exception not the rule however, and kind of becomes irrelevant to the topic at hand due to not being in a roulette and being counted as a raid, meaning you go to CT expecting to run CT.

But I can see how you would want to drop some of those groups, seeing how they have no random element besides your alliance I think the 30 minute penalty is fine as you aren't leaving due to the content you are leaving due to the players, I would never want to force someone to have to play with people they cannot cooperate with for whatever reason.

There is already a penalty and it is fine. The idea that a larger penalty discriminating against tanks will make things better isn't supported by evidence nor will it promote people to play tank. It's baseline discrimination against them for their job.

My bias isn't against tanks as I'm certain I've seen more healers so this than tanks. I've seen these people on the boards saying how they just refuse to heal Tam Tara ever again and the minute it loads, the minute they walk back out. They don't deserve the daily roulette bonus when that happens- they've at what the bonus pays them to do. If I feel like running my healer through low level roulette and picture the dungeons I don't want... I make the decision prior to hitting register by regarding whether I'm ok with running whatever possible dungeon it gives me. It lists the possible dungeons you could get under each roulette type, of course.

If I see any that I absolutely don't want to run, I abstain from low level roulette on that character. I'll give up a small daily bonus that I hadn't yet earned, so that others who have been waiting will get someone who wants to be there without waiting all over again.

I think a fun punishment for anyone who leaves a dungeon too many times is a custom title that cannot be removed, nor changed until the player meets certain requirements. Give them the title "Dungeon Ditcher" for bailing on 3 dungeons a week. It doesn't go away after weekly reset. The only way to get it removed is complete a dungeon all the way through. Ditch 2 more instead, and you're automatically glamoured with a dunce cap.

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Originally Posted by Malevicton

Meh, it's not ideal, but at least they're leaving. It's the "Kick me penalty-free or I'll hold the group hostage" type of folks that bug me

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Had one of those today.

"RL problem gotta go kick plz"

If it was a RL problem, that debuff wouldn't matter.

"Already got it once today"

Sigh.

There is no reward to give a tank, or healer, that can make up for the reasons why they sometimes leave a dungeon.

Tanks, healers, DPS all do something that causes that user to react negatively when they see these situations next. You have exceptions who quit because they are on their high horse and these aren't the perfect conditions. But otherwise it's due to the people, not the jobs. I've had tanks leave because I wasn't a WHM and played as SCH.

DPS who are spirit bonding under level gear or gear that doesn't relate to their job. DPS who do not do their jobs, I don't mean have their perfect rotation down, I mean I had two summoners in a dungeon yesterday who did not use their pets..they just spammed ruin. They had to be reminded to summon. DPS who pull ahead of the tank, get the crap beaten out of them and then healer cures, hate goes to him. You may say "but the tank should...."..I can stop you right there. The moment you assume to this level of experience is when things go bad. Expect the worse and work up to the best. DPS who love to yell at the tank for not pulling enough, I've stopped tanking because of that. You tell them "Fine, why aren't you tanking?" oh because they don't want to, it's easy to yell at someone from the outside looking in. You're stressing the tank out.

Healers who stay in DPS stance, causing wipes because tank died since they assumed they would use hallowed ground since it's what they're use to and assume. I've seen healers pull a head of the tank. Again if you are not the tank, don't run ahead. If you don't like the way they're tanking..pull out that great axe. You also have healers who refuse to be in damage dealing stance. In large pulls even doing a holy, swift cast, holy and a final 3rd can make a few mobs die a bit faster..and that's less healing in some cases...some.

Tanks, they sometimes won't look at the situation and just pull these massive groups together when I got two monks in a party. A lot don't use cool downs, oh and Cover..thank you Paladins who use Cover! Not just on me but on that DPS who is standing in every single thing.

Mix that up with new users, who refuse to listen or don't ask questions. In a group of 4 when we see the new player, most ask who is new lets get through this. No one responds..I've been told maybe they're on PS3/4 they don't have a keyboard. It's $10 for a keyboard..even less find a flea market for less and get one of those giant white ones and throw in an adapter from best buy for 2 extra dollars. There is no reason not to communicate.

In my time in this game I've learned, it's not the jobs..it's the people. There's not much you can give a person to ensure not only do they come into a dungeon and stay but they're understanding, patience and willing to communicate and corporate with other people. To me, it can only be resolved when people stop demanding perfection attitude towards some of these things, take time and understanding with people. At the same time on the other end these users who are new need to know that sometimes you have to take some time to backtrack and be ready for learning something new. I also think there's two kinds of people who have this problem, remember exceptions are out there for these..one kind of user who plays so much they rage out on everything. Whether they know it or not they're stressed and just not fun to play with. Then there's the user who doesn't play that much, isn't caught up to where you should be for content but feels they deserve to be in there because they paid.

Those who meet in the middle of the two groups, I have the most fun with. I personally thank all the tanks for what they do..

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Originally Posted by Amelia_Pond_Behemoth

I think a fun punishment for anyone who leaves a dungeon too many times is a custom title that cannot be removed, nor changed until the player meets certain requirements. Give them the title "Dungeon Ditcher" for bailing on 3 dungeons a week. It doesn't go away after weekly reset. The only way to get it removed is complete a dungeon all the way through. Ditch 2 more instead, and you're automatically glamoured with a dunce cap.

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I like that idea, and to add to it I think whatever mount they summon for that time period should appear as a Braying Jackass that moves at a speed in between regular walking speed and mount speed (so they still have a reason to use it, but it moves slower than regular mounts). No matter what special mounts they have unlocked, if they ditch a high percentage of dungeons within the first 5 minutes (with ditches in the first 30s counting triple) they have to shuffle along on a loudly braying donkey until they run enough full dungeons to reset it.

I don't leave stuff unless its taking too long and I need to go.

But one time I did refuse to move till one of the dps put on real gear to spirit bond and not crafting and gathering stuff. I don't care if you got a good weapon and can still push use gear that benefits your role people.

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Originally Posted by Malevicton

Meh, it's not ideal, but at least they're leaving. It's the "Kick me penalty-free or I'll hold the group hostage" type of folks that bug me

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I had a tank like that. When she asked me to kick her I just began to do the Manderville. Someone will get bored eventually, but I won't do a favor for toxic people.

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Originally Posted by Urthdigger

No. I reserve the right to send DPS i recognize as being utterly useless back to the queue, leaving myself if I have to because criticizing a DPS player is a sin punishable by death apparently. Sucks for the other players, but tough luck.

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That isn't a right, it just happens to be something made doable because of the ratio of tanks to dps. Your opinion on another player doesn't give you the right to be arrogant and rude. Secondly, criticize anyone in this game no matter how helpful, and people freak out (such as the time I suggested a tank build enmity on the target he marked as first to focus instead of repeatedly shield lobbing a target he didn't mark at all). This isn't restricted to DPS - it's just a human ego problem. Which the thinking of it being your "right" to ruin a dungeon for other people because you think you're better than them also falls under.

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Originally Posted by Balipu

I had a tank like that. When she asked me to kick her I just began to do the Manderville. Someone will get bored eventually, but I won't do a favor for toxic people.

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..Just kick them. If you finish the dungeon they still get to re queue anyhow afterwards.

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Originally Posted by Twilite

..Just kick them. If you finish the dungeon they still get to re queue anyhow afterwards.

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I agree. If someone asks to be kicked I will. No reason to keep someone who doesn't want to be there. Never had someone refuse to run until I kicked because I've always just done it. The power play is just pointless.

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Originally Posted by Dante_V

There is already a penalty and it is fine. The idea that a larger penalty discriminating against tanks will make things better isn't supported by evidence nor will it promote people to play tank. It's baseline discrimination against them for their job.

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If this is how people irl thinks, the world would be a MUCH better place.

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Originally Posted by Exosapien

That isn't a right, it just happens to be something made doable because of the ratio of tanks to dps. Your opinion on another player doesn't give you the right to be arrogant and rude. Secondly, criticize anyone in this game no matter how helpful, and people freak out (such as the time I suggested a tank build enmity on the target he marked as first to focus instead of repeatedly shield lobbing a target he didn't mark at all). This isn't restricted to DPS - it's just a human ego problem. Which the thinking of it being your "right" to ruin a dungeon for other people because you think you're better than them also falls under.

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If people don't like it, they can always play tank instead. It IS a right by matter of playing a role nobody else wants to play. As a tank, I am the sole reason they aren't twiddling their thumbs in Mor Dhona. I also don't ask for much. Dodge AoE where feasible, perform boss mechanics like killing adds, don't just stand AFK to the side with no warning... that's the distinction I make for a useless DPS. Basically folks doing the kind of crap that would be inexcusable for me or the healer to do, just because they feel they're invisible.

IMO, DPS should be scrutinized and held to the same standard as other players, AKA showing a modicum of effort and attention to their role. It doesn't take a lot of effort to be a useful DPS, or tank or healer for that matter. But as the community only cares to police and judge the healers and tanks, it falls to tanks to police the DPS.

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Originally Posted by Urthdigger

If people don't like it, they can always play tank instead. It IS a right by matter of playing a role nobody else wants to play. As a tank, I am the sole reason they aren't twiddling their thumbs in Mor Dhona. I also don't ask for much. Dodge AoE where feasible, perform boss mechanics like killing adds, don't just stand AFK to the side with no warning... that's the distinction I make for a useless DPS. Basically folks doing the kind of crap that would be inexcusable for me or the healer to do, just because they feel they're invisible.

IMO, DPS should be scrutinized and held to the same standard as other players, AKA showing a modicum of effort and attention to their role. It doesn't take a lot of effort to be a useful DPS, or tank or healer for that matter. But as the community only cares to police and judge the healers and tanks, it falls to tanks to police the DPS.

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I agree to an extent. I hold every role to a degree of scrutiny. Overeager tanks that are stingy with CD's, torturously slow DPS, or healers that can't handle their healing load put up red flags for me. Coaching struggling players through mechanics is one thing, but to teach a player their class during a duty detracts from everyone's time, not to mention the scathing remark that will be leveled at you in way of thanks. I'd sooner leave and continue enjoying my playtime, regardless of what class I came in on and how long I waited in queue.

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Originally Posted by Dante_V

There is already a penalty and it is fine. The idea that a larger penalty discriminating against tanks will make things better isn't supported by evidence nor will it promote people to play tank. It's baseline discrimination against them for their job.

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I'm a tank and I do believe the penalty could use a adjustment. It should penalize based on the actual demand for each type of job. If a tank is in need, and people are waiting longer for them, then they should get a longer wait time as a penalty. I know its already 30 mins, but its the same for all classes regardless of their need in a dungeon. It would have to be proportional to the actual wait time the group had to endure in order to enter. And I know that would be hard to program properly. I think 30+ whatever the group had to wait. I'm cool with it being long enough that the tank would have to think, well gee the penalty is going to be longer then this is going to take with newbies, so i midaswell help. Heck a caption popping up when the dungeon starts, "your group has waited x minutes for you to join". I know some people wouldn't care but others may rethink their actions if they actually knew.

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Originally Posted by Drako

I'm a tank and I do believe the penalty could use a adjustment. It should penalize based on the actual demand for each type of job. If a tank is in need, and people are waiting longer for them, then they should get a longer wait time as a penalty. I know its already 30 mins, but its the same for all classes regardless of their need in a dungeon. It would have to be proportional to the actual wait time the group had to endure in order to enter. And I know that would be hard to program properly. I think 30+ whatever the group had to wait. I'm cool with it being long enough that the tank would have to think, well gee the penalty is going to be longer then this is going to take with newbies, so i midaswell help. Heck a caption popping up when the dungeon starts, "your group has waited x minutes for you to join". I know some people wouldn't care but others may rethink their actions if they actually knew.

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If I'm saddled with a group that can't complete the content, for whatever reason, why should I be subject to an extended penalty just for the role that I chose? Not everyone will vote abandon in favor of trying again, so I'd sooner drop the party if it's clear that the remainder of the dungeon is going to be a struggle. I play tanks to diversify myself as a healer main, but if I had to worry about excessive time outs I'd be less likely to join. I'm not about to sit through a 60+ minute lockout for someone else's incompetency. If you end up pushing potential tanks away from the role with additional punishments then it will only take longer to get into the dungeons in the first place. Perhaps more benefits for in-progress tanks would work better.

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Originally Posted by Seryl199

so I'd sooner drop the party if it's clear that the remainder of the dungeon is going to be a struggle.

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Really you're making my point. A good portion of all of us had to struggle when we were brand new to this game(I.E. Praetorium my first group ever, we all had AF, and it literally came down to the last minute when we won). And it's not fair to not give the newer players more of a chance. Why shouldn't you be punished more, for punishing these new players just because they don't meet your expectations. So they get to sit, and wait a additional half hour for someone to join, when they have already waited a half hour for you to show up. But you get to go about your day with just half that punishment. THAT isn't fair. I'll agree that there can be groups that it literally will be impossible to defeat something, but this is very rare. Most people's perception of impossible is the 3 strike rule. You wipe three times and you leave. I can remember many dungeons when I was brand new where it took more then that to get good. If it's low level dungeons, I would give players much more of a chance, if you can't do that, then I'd welcome scarring off players from doing tank like you stated. The players would wait a little bit longer in queue, but at least they would get someone worth waiting on.

Seriously? Do you honestly believe every time there's a troublesome party it's because of some ernest newbie who's honestly trying their best but just doesn't have the experience, and would certainly rise to the challenge if only the mean nasty tank would give them a chance!

Bullshit. Yeah, there's a lot of newbies, and when I spot them I give polite advice and patience. But those aren't the people I talk about when I mention using my right to drop a party to punish them. Nor do I feel is it Seryl's. I'm talking about the people just clearly phoning it in. Wearing friggin intelligence gear on a bard. Standing off to the side during a fight without announcing they're going AFK. Flat out ignoring everything being side and just running on autopilot, quite possibly botting. Deliberate trolling just because they feel it's funny. All this and more. Quite often from the DPS who feel they're invisible and will never be judged.

I shouldn't have to play with those people. Especially if I'm stepping up to a role nobody else wants.

Cristalist

me as a Tank

15+ total wipes in 3 different groups 2 groups who abandoned
DPS always screwed up Limit break or not gone for orbs corectly or the off tank did not taken aggro when i had no def CD left and got Triple in my face and died and the boss gone for the healers.....

i was there till the end in all of the groups not said a single bad word only tried to give advices.

do i get an Achivement for this ?

I think if you entered in roulette, that they should still give a reward to those that used the roulette. If it times out, then perhaps double up on the reward, instead of punish you for sticking around. I mean that's the whole point of the roulette system, to reward experienced players for helping newer players right? Why give us nothing for failing. Hell I'd be happy if it was at least like FATEs where you fail but you still get a reward.

Lucky. I wish my shit tanks would leave. No, they end up continually pulling more than they/I can handle, kvetch I'm not dpsing when I can barely keep their squishy ass alive, and ends up with *me* leaving.

As an aside, can we get tomes for adventurer in need? 5400 gil is crap.

Unfortunately there are always two sides to these things. On the one hand the diva Tanks do exist who will play with no less than an OP group who knows everything about the instance they are in and will start trying to kick people or leave if the party does not make their standards. These Tanks are often not particularly good they just have the old WoW mentality where Tanks are deemed important and get their own way. They tend to just try to rush everything and whine when the Healer can't heal them as fast as they are losing HP couple of emergency heal CD's later and splat!.

The other side there are people who are just bad. I'm not talking about specifically new people either these are people who have run dungeons and got gear from it but they are there to be a passenger. Had a fractal run in progress last night in Healer slot the Healer had clearly given up but you can't assume anything going in. Get in and the Tank has low gear but can still keep him up the problem is that the two DPS are really bad especially the Bard who has absolutely no idea how to play his class.

Got to the last boss somehow with 30 minutes left on the clock enough time for a couple of pulls if needed. The fight drags on and on Tank is derping into stuff and DPS are so slow killing the adds that I need to help DPS. The Bard is running in circles attacking the boss only. Monk does his LB during the floor tiles lighting up and gets himself killed. Low mana just about keeping the Tank up. Everyone screaming at the Bard to use mage ballad. He runs in circles attacking the boss. Adds pop up. The Bard runs in circles attacking the boss. Get the Monk up but too late and party wipes. Tried to explain to the Bard about his songs buffing the party but he's French and doesn't understand much English. The pull took so long we only have time for one more. Same story DPS stood around picking their noses while adds come up. Bard runs in circles attacking the boss. Should have given up on these people they clearly don't care much to try and a Bard that doesn't want to learn their class is a wasted slot.

Those types are the worst. New people are different some are fine you can just give them pointers and be patient some will work their ass off to learn. Some though you explain a mechanic for the 50th time and they are still not getting it. Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind they won't know they are bad unless they get kicked and then they can teach themselves to be better.