Comparing Post + Pre Echo FCOB DPS

Hey guys, ever since echo has been added to FCOB I've been wondering how to scale post-echo DPS in comparison to pre-echo. I think the math is more complicated than just adding a flat 15% to your pre-echo DPS, because I've run content with and without echo (with a similar crit rate) and it just doesn't seem to scale that way.

The closest example I can think of off the top of my head that supports this is the piercing damage buff dragoons give bards, the true value of which is theorized to be around 8% instead of the 10% value given in the tooltip.

Can someone give me a more accurate way to compare post and pre echo dps?

You really can't. Phases get pushed way quicker, adds (milk time basically) get destroyed much much faster so the milkier classes get wrecked, fight durations being different mean different CD durations for the fight meaning you end on a different note, healers/tanks can DPS like the pros with minimal effort so DPS is that much higher, etc

I wouldn't even bother comparing pre to post. Just compare your post runs to your other post runs and vice versa.

Yeah those are some very good points. I guess the best thing you can do is just ballpark it, and save the more accurate comparisons for those between two or more pre-echo encounters and two or more post-echo encounters.

if your talking hit damage hits, it is exactly 15% harder, but its as sleigh said it gets changed due to cooldowns and the like not matching up.

For bard it is not 10% because of dots.

What do dots have to do with increased damage?

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

What do dots have to do with increased damage?

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Dots are not piercing damage. Thats why that dragoons debuff do not affect em.

You would times your echodps by .85 if you are looking how to find your dps pre-echo, but like someone said pushing faster gives you more dps anyways.

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Originally Posted by Hakmatic

but like someone said pushing faster gives you more dps anyways.

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Quite the opposite actually, except for T11.

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Originally Posted by Sunako

Dots are not piercing damage. Thats why that dragoons debuff do not affect em.

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The OP and comments are all talking about the Echo buff, not the DRG debuff.
The DRG piercing debuff is just an example where there might be hidden math for how much it increases.

The 15% Echo buff affects everything equally.

Hm, so if i'm understanding correctly in a fight like t13, echo would decrease your overall dps due to how much faster the adds die and the increased downtime (waiting for DBs, tera etc), so in that fight it wouldn't be appropriate to just multiply your dps by 0.85. Maybe like 0.88-0.9 if I'm giving a rough estimate.

Another reason why I'm asking is because in pug farms for example, dps with echo is generally comparable to dps in a capable static without echo, meaning not many external factors such as add phase timing etc are affected.

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Originally Posted by OneWingedSora

Quite the opposite actually, except for T11.

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I'm unsure how 10 or 12 would be any different. Cooldowns not lining up with adds?

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

I'm unsure how 10 or 12 would be any different. Cooldowns not lining up with adds?

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It's pretty class specific. Ranged are the best milkers in FFXIV due to multi-DoT and AoE supremacy, so those guys typically do worse proportionately to melee/tanks than in non-echo environments.

- For 10, the sooner those sons/daughters get wrecked the lower the capacity is for everyone to multi-DoT/AoE, including melee. Typically though you can skip mechanics in T10 much easier now so group DPS shouldn't really scale too negatively, mostly just all ranged.
- 11 is straight burn
- 12, groups are pushing 2 Bennu pretty easily now. That's a LOT less multi-DoT and destroys the AoE portion. No real upside to having more DPS in terms of numbers, you could skip fountain stacks even before echo. It might take a very very good comp but unless you can skip that first dodge phase it's detrimental to uptime vs downtime ratio.
- 13 is mostly the same but add phase gets melted, everyone just stands around. Lower uptime to downtime ratio for everyone unless you choose to keep things alive.

Other than that it's mostly CDs, yeah. Burstier classes like DRG and BRD are positively impacted by more downtime to uptime, which is part of why they're so dominant in a T9/T13 scenario. One of the biggest things for all DoM is the closer you clear to 5m30s-ish, the better for them because you get 2 BV Foe's sessions. Otherwise you wanna clear closer to after Raging Strikes comes back which would be 6m20s to 6m30s for casters.

Sometimes quick pushes can be beneficial to personal DPS, due to less mechanics, and possibly lining up CDs better, but I'd say it's the exception rather than the rule.

Also gotta stress that, outside of possibly wanting to drop DoM in certain fights, there's not much to say negatively about this kind of stuff. It's just less personal DPS, oh well. The main thing to take away is you just really can't compare DPS numbers in different environments as if it's "just" 15% increase, it'll cause misconceptions if you do.

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Originally Posted by Hakmatic

You would times your echodps by .85 if you are looking how to find your dps pre-echo, but like someone said pushing faster gives you more dps anyways.

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actually the correct math would be divide by 1.15, its slightly different :P

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

I'm unsure how 10 or 12 would be any different. Cooldowns not lining up with adds?

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Less multi-dotting/AOEing on adds.

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Originally Posted by OneWingedSora

Less multi-dotting/AOEing on adds.

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I can assure you pushing faster 10-12 gives you more dps, atleast for physical dps. Dont play blm which is what im guessing you are saying gets more dps.

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Originally Posted by Hakmatic

I can assure you pushing faster 10-12 gives you more dps, atleast for physical dps. Dont play blm which is what im guessing you are saying gets more dps.

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10 and 11, sure, for melee. 12, unless you can beat the first dodge phase it's pretty much gonna be a personal DPS loss ratio wise. Less uptime vs downtime when you're talking about a set amount of downtime = worse numbers.

Easiest way of looking at it (fake numbers incoming because I don't want to throw out fight durations): let's say you do 600 DPS on your uptime. Let's not count something like GL3 dropping off and negatively impacting MNK's GL3 uptime.

Over 10 minutes of a theoretical fight, you have 9 minutes of uptime and 1 minute of unrelated-to-DPS downtime. You do 540 DPS total for the encounter.

With echo you do 690 DPS on your uptime, but the uptime falls to 7m48s with 1 minute of downtime. You do about 600ish DPS in this instance, a piddling 10%~ increase even though your DPS while attacking was in fact multiplied by 1.15.

That would help explain why I'm not able to hit pre-echo numbers if I deduct the 15% lol.

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Originally Posted by Hakmatic

You would times your echodps by .85 if you are looking how to find your dps pre-echo, but like someone said pushing faster gives you more dps anyways.

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Originally Posted by Zamii

actually the correct math would be divide by 1.15, its slightly different :P

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This. Multiplying with 0.85 gives you lower than original number.

If you do normaly 500 dps then multiple with 1.15 that will be 575. If you multiple 575 with 0.85 it will be 488 dps but original dps was 500. You need divide 15%(echo) with 115%(overall damage) that will be 13.04%. Then after that you need multiple 0.1304 with 575 that is 74.999 and remove that number from your parse so you will reach 500 dps again. That will tell the number what it would be without echo.

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Originally Posted by Sunako

If you do normaly 500 dps then multiple with 1.15 that will be 575. If you multiple 575 with 0.85 it will be 488 dps but original dps was 500. You need divide 15%(echo) with 115%(overall damage) that will be 13.04%. Then after that you need multiple 0.1304 with 575 that is 74.999 and remove that number from your parse so you will reach 500 dps again. That will tell the number what it would be without echo.

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You have, like, 3 extra steps. 575/115% gets you back to the 500 you started with.

Well said Sleigh. Explains alot. Composition also plays a huge part as many of the PF Farm groups lately are far from Optimal (No BRD/No Casters) leaving Melee runnin dry on TP quite frequently or requiring MNK's to melee LB the adds (bye bye GL3 unless perfectly timed).

I was able to hit 634 DPS as a BiS MNK this week on T10 (was dry on TP several times throughout the encounter) and i felt as though i could have done much higher with better party comp.

The Highest recorded MNK Parse for T10 pre-echo on the DnT sheet was 606 DPS. With all things considered, how much do you think a BiS MNK could achieve with the 15% bonus as well as shorter kill time? I've seen DRG's avg. 700s lately. Is this out of the realm of possibility for MNKs?

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Originally Posted by PROBOUND

The Highest recorded MNK Parse for T10 pre-echo on the DnT sheet was 606 DPS. With all things considered, how much do you think a BiS MNK could achieve with the 15% bonus as well as shorter kill time? I've seen DRG's avg. 700s lately. Is this out of the realm of possibility for MNKs?

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theres a few people around with parses higher than DnT, my best T10 pre-echo was 615, i think hak matic has a higher parse again, that being said, it requires decent rng to get that, with good rng i'de say its possible, but it wouldnt be an every run occurance.
On the other hand, the shorter kill time inevitably makes it harder on monks, the % of time spent building GL stacks is much greater than that of a longer run.