"Healer DPS is not taken into account" for raids

Slycer from BG translated a Game Watch interview with Yoshi-P. His translation can be found here.

Of note, there was a discussion about WHM DPS which lead to a tangent about raid design and the DPS check, leading to this quote:

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Yoshida: Yes. Since all DPS jobs will be increasing up through level 60, it makes sense to have the white mage's DPS extend by a proportional amount as well. For development, such as with Bahamut's Coils, the development team assumes what the item level should be for general equipment on players when they clear a raid. They sum up the basic DPS for four DPS and tanks at that assumed item level and cut that by about 10-15% for the minimum clear DPS. Healer DPS is not taken into account when this is set.

Certainly for people who are at world's first level, their goal is to clear it at as low an item level as possible, lower than the one assumed during development. So if you look at the fight and figure out that if it's not numerically possible to clear with four DPS and tanks, you'll need to make up the gap with DPS from healers. Then when those publish clear videos and other people see the healers DPSing, they might think that healers need to be DPSing even though its a situation that only arose because their clear would have otherwise been impossible. While we could take this into account, and assume a different item level in the next update which would then make it impossible to clear even with the healer DPS, we'd eliminate this type of play for highly skilled players who use communication, items, and a high level of understanding to come up with those last second clears. That would be a tough decision to make, so I still think it should be up to each party's own plans.

This is also one of the reasons we decided to implement both a normal and savage version of Alexander. Once again, healer DPS was not included in the development team's calculation as it was for other jobs, so you should just think of healer DPS as a last way to get your overall party's DPS up to where it needs to be.

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The reason I brought this up was partially because there's been a discussion in a few thread in the past where posters indicate if the developers may or may not have accounted for healer DPS when they built their raids and/or dungeons.

(I also just want to have this quote handy in my history =D)

To quote, the DPS check is calculated by:

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They sum up the basic DPS for four DPS and tanks at that assumed item level and cut that by about 10-15% for the minimum clear DPS. Healer DPS is not taken into account when this is set.

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What this means to me:

No, as a healer you are not required to DPS to beat content.

However,

Yes, you are inefficient if you aren't DPSing when opportunities present themselves to allow for DPS because the dev team gave you the tools to increase your DPS presence.

And

Yes, you should be attempting to play your role to the best of your capabilities (whether it be Tank, DPS, Heals).

This is super nice dev insight to have!

This is more or less what I'd always assumed (that they do consider that healers can and often will DPS, but that it isn't a criterion for tuning clear minimums).

Nice to know, but I don't think this will make a difference in anyone's play style. Players who see healer DPS as a crutch for groups with poor DPS will continue to act as if attacking mobs were beneath them/not in their job description, while better-rounded/more active players will keep doing what they're doing. And the truly bad players will keep on killing everyone regardless of how they play, but that too is status quo.

I have always contributed to DPS as a scholar, I see absolutely no reason to not. I never really run out of mana in the first place and applying a few DoTs and ignoring them after that is nice.

Will I dps during a crutch period? Oh hell no.

But if I know it's safe to then I will, even in an emergency popping out of cleric stance and healing takes half a second.

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Originally Posted by SovereignAegis

I have always contributed to DPS as a scholar, I see absolutely no reason to not. I never really run out of mana in the first place and applying a few DoTs and ignoring them after that is nice.

Will I dps during a crutch period? Oh hell no.

But if I know it's safe to then I will, even in an emergency popping out of cleric stance and healing takes half a second.

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Not to mention lustrate and fairy heals are unafected by cleric stance ^^

When did this interview come out? I swear read somewhere that they included the DPS of healers now for the new raids?

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Originally Posted by melflomil

When did this interview come out? I swear read somewhere that they included the DPS of healers now for the new raids?

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A bit over two weeks ago.

I've always been of the opinion of "Who cares if it's taken into account, there's literally no reason to /not/ add extra DPS if you can do it without anyone dying".

I think idealy, a healer should be almost fully engaged with healing when your group has the minimum item level, so clearly they cant take healer dps into account too much. But when your group is overgeared, healers have a higher healing power, hots tick for more, shields absorb more, people have more hp so that healers dont have to react as fast. There are more opportunities for healers to dps now, but at the same time its less needed because your DDs should do way more DPS than required already. Yet it helps finishing the raid/dungeon faster.
So yes, in general a healer shouldnt have to DPS to beat the content, but if he has the opportunity to dps without risk, then i think it's part of the healer job to do so. Otherwise we could say that overgeared DDs can go afk during the battle, cause they already did the amount of damage that SquareEnix took into account when they designed this boss...

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

The reason I brought this up was partially because there's been a discussion in a few thread in the past where posters indicate if the developers may or may not have accounted for healer DPS when they built their raids and/or dungeons.

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This was not incredibly obvious to everyone? Am I the only one who said it?

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post2810019

(That's the "kicked from halitali for not DPS'ing as a healer" thread in the dungeons forum.)

Look no further than the whine about players wanting Steps of Faith nerfed, and the even louder whine once it was nerfed. Bad players just want to faceroll by minmaxing over the content, and lo and behold what happens when they can't because they aren't supposed to DPS faceroll.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

This was not incredibly obvious to everyone? Am I the only one who said it?

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post2810019

(That's the "kicked from halitali for not DPS'ing as a healer" thread in the dungeons forum.)

Look no further than the whine about players wanting Steps of Faith nerfed, and the even louder whine once it was nerfed. Bad players just want to faceroll by minmaxing over the content, and lo and behold what happens when they can't because they aren't supposed to DPS faceroll.

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*Coughs* I called it over a year ago.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

If your DPS is of that ilvl, your party should be able to overcome all mechanics associated with that fight WITHOUT [the healer's] assistance in this regard. If you are forced to DPS as a healer to help "push a fight forward", the fault lies squarely on your lackluster DPS.

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My thoughts has always been very similar to what Cynfael posted in this thread and as FoxyAreku's has said:

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

I've always been of the opinion of "Who cares if it's taken into account, there's literally no reason to /not/ add extra DPS if you can do it without anyone dying".

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But if someone is kicked as a healer for not DPSing, whoever initiated the kick should be slapped. There should be no requirement for a healer to DPS. In the same token, if the opportunity presents itself, the healer should be opting to use all of their toolkit at their disposal to minimize down time.

I think overall, people in general just care about MAD DEEPS! Between Bards who don't want to play their songs so they can keep up with MAD DEEPS and healers that insist that DPSing as a healer is THE only way to play because of MAD DEEPS and tanks who decide to either not use their job crystal or don't use Defiance/Shield Oath for MAD DEEPS, everyone only cares about high numbers and the speed of said numbers.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

I think overall, people in general just care about MAD DEEPS! Between Bards who don't want to play their songs so they can keep up with MAD DEEPS and healers that insist that DPSing as a healer is THE only way to play because of MAD DEEPS and tanks who decide to either not use their job crystal or don't use Defiance/Shield Oath for MAD DEEPS, everyone only cares about high numbers and the speed of said numbers.

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All overall good players know that duty completion is priority #1. Usually this involves playing well and maximizing DPS to an extent that is reasonable for each Job or Role while still handling necessary mechanics.

BRDs who don't want to play their songs when it makes sense to use them have entire other threads dedicated to them.

It's not required, but the extra DPS can help beat enrage at lower group ilvls, and skip mechanics to make fights easier than with no extra DPS (faster phase pushes on T10 so you get less charges, 4 bennus on T12 etc.)

A below average healer can do 1 to 2 % of damage that is just lietrally throwing dots up when the tank is at full health and no incoming big damage is and This is without turning on cleric.

An average healer can do about 3 to 5 percent of damage. As much as an LB3 truought an entire fire.

A great healer can do 6 to 10 percent.

An extraordinary healer can get greater than 11 percent

I don't get why people would rather just stand around doing absolutely nothing rather than throwing out some dps. I LIKE that the devs of this game have made it possible for Healers to contribute to DPS as it makes some healing abilities like heal over time and shields more significant. You can let those tick and do their job while you throw out some dps rather then stomping your own hots with direct heals because you have nothing else to do.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

I think overall, people in general just care about MAD DEEPS! Between Bards who don't want to play their songs so they can keep up with MAD DEEPS and healers that insist that DPSing as a healer is THE only way to play because of MAD DEEPS and tanks who decide to either not use their job crystal or don't use Defiance/Shield Oath for MAD DEEPS, everyone only cares about high numbers and the speed of said numbers.

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Well, ultimately the goal of any encounter is to kill the enemy. I don't think you have to be obsessed with "MAD DEEPS!" to recognize the fact that you can't heal the enemy to death.

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Originally Posted by Wasselin

I don't get why people would rather just stand around doing absolutely nothing rather than throwing out some dps. I LIKE that the devs of this game have made it possible for Healers to contribute to DPS as it makes some healing abilities like heal over time and shields more significant. You can let those tick and do their job while you throw out some dps rather then stomping your own hots with direct heals because you have nothing else to do.



Well, ultimately the goal of any encounter is to kill the enemy. I don't think you have to be obsessed with "MAD DEEPS!" to recognize the fact that you can't heal the enemy to death.

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Completely off topic but: I loved fights like that in WoW where you had to heal the raid boss or some other important npc in different phases. Also loved healing undead to "death" in FFXI xD.

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Originally Posted by melflomil

A below average SCH can do 1 to 2 % of damage that is just lietrally throwing dots up when the tank is at full health and no incoming big damage is and This is without turning on cleric.

An average SCH can do about 3 to 5 percent of damage. As much as an LB3 truought an entire fire.

A great SCH can do 6 to 10 percent.

An extraordinary SCH can get greater than 11 percent

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Fixed. There's no way a WHM is going to hit 10% at endgame accuracy levels without melding every piece of gear with ACC.

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Originally Posted by Velox

Fixed. There's no way a WHM is going to hit 10% at endgame accuracy levels without melding every piece of gear with ACC.

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I'm not sure how SCH accuracy requirements are different from WHM accuracy requirements if both are aiming for 100% accuracy on all spells (including Miasma, Energy Drain, and Aero). I don't think a SCH can do 10% with uncapped accuracy even with auto-hitting DoTs, but would like to be proven wrong in this respect.

You'll want a fully ACC melded relic, three pieces of gear melded with accuracy, and food for capped T13 for either if you have any real intention of doing DPS as a healer with 100% or near 100% accuracy.

Random edit: Just one more point, if you ABSOLUTELY WANT TO MAXIMIZE SCH DPS you might make the argument to get SCH accuracy high enough for Flank Accuracy so you can auto-attack book while using Ruin II. . . ( which means SCH has a higher ACC requirement than WHM in some twisted convoluted way )

Also, if you're putting out much more than 10% of the raid DPS as healer in T13, chances are either that the rest of your party is significantly less amazing at DPS than you and/or you are milking tons of extra damage on the add phase (which becomes more of a thing when your party can't burst down adds very quickly).

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They sum up the basic DPS for four DPS and tanks at that assumed item level and cut that by about 10-15% for the minimum clear DPS. Healer DPS is not taken into account when this is set.

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Hehe, from the looks of it though, they sum up nearly the "best" dps (not basic) the four DPS + tank could do in order to tune endgame.

So yeah I guess that it really only applies to Endgame while under geared that you would need any healer assisted DPS. ;p

Imagine being able to play at that level of skill though to always reach max capacity of your Job DPS.

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Like, look at the elite endgame teams who were in penta melded i110 crafted gear and i90 accessories for HP, using Pots and Healer DPS, with the most ideal party setups and just sqeeking by on their T13 wins before enrage.

Aside from meeting accuracy caps, and losing some primary stats on the i90 accessories, the melded i110 crafted (body) are nearly i130 pieces in some cases.

So probably bringing the equivalent ilvl to ~i120

I'm assuming T13 was tuned around i123 gear (DF limit)

So that means you should be able to manage it well in i115 (normal, non-crafted) gear, without pots and no healer DPS?!?!?!

Go home Yoshi P, you're drunk.

(Goes to watch videos of i110 T13 kill vids)

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

So that means you should be able to manage it well in i115 (normal, non-crafted) gear, without pots and no healer DPS?!?!?!

Go home Yoshi P, you're drunk.

(Goes to watch videos of i110 T13 kill vids)

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It's also more than possible to clear t5 and t9 below the ilvl limits the DF sets for them.

Keep in mind that their design ilvl and the DF ilvl are not necessarily the same. The DF ilvl requirement assumes a group may be pugging it (rather than a preformed static thing). And then there's also that exceptional players can exceed dev expectations. They don't tune the fights for Blue Gartr and Lucrezia, etc.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

Hehe, from the looks of it though, they sum up nearly the "best" dps (not basic) the four DPS + tank could do in order to tune endgame.

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No, it says they take that tank and dps number and adjust by 10-15%. That should be plenty of wiggle room for a bit of gear discrepancy, or not keeping up exact perfect dps, and still be doable but challenging.

Not that I really care, since it is unlikely I will ever be in that kind of raid :/ scheduling simply will not allow.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

Hehe, from the looks of it though, they sum up nearly the "best" dps (not basic) the four DPS + tank could do in order to tune endgame.

So yeah I guess that it really only applies to Endgame while under geared that you would need any healer assisted DPS. ;p

Imagine being able to play at that level of skill though to always reach max capacity of your Job DPS.

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Like, look at the elite endgame teams who were in penta melded i110 crafted gear and i90 accessories for HP, using Pots and Healer DPS, with the most ideal party setups and just sqeeking by on their T13 wins before enrage.

Aside from meeting accuracy caps, and losing some primary stats on the i90 accessories, the melded i110 crafted (body) are nearly i130 pieces in some cases.

So probably bringing the equivalent ilvl to ~i120

I'm assuming T13 was tuned around i123 gear (DF limit)

So that means you should be able to manage it well in i115 (normal, non-crafted) gear, without pots and no healer DPS?!?!?!

Go home Yoshi P, you're drunk.

(Goes to watch videos of i110 T13 kill vids)

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I see your point but some small nitpicks:

MNK MNK, the world first comps, is quite unideal. It was ideal at the time due to time constraints, but if you wanna talk about what they tuned it for, it was probably NIN MNK rather than MNK MNK.

No one knew of Cover week 1 for ES. That singlehandedly is between 1-2%. Testing might have taken that into consideration since it's clearly an intended workaround.

Lots of missing potential healer/tank DPS to go beyond the bounds of what groups did week 1, even in that gear. That comes from having that turn on farm for more than 7 months though and knowing every cleave and AA to the T.

My beef with this is that I'm stuck with players who honestly believe healer DPS was calculated into raids, and that the devs made a mistake removing accuracy from all their gear, all while trying to push their stupid crap on others. So I and many other get stuck with even more useless healers who don't know the first thing about making it easier on themselves. Just the constant teetering at the edge of failure for the sole sake of dealing all the damage possible.

And I don't find that attacking at all is a bad thing. There's a lot wrong with WHY you did it than just doing it. . .. until you fail to keep players alive at which case yes there is a lot wrong with that too.

I doubt that any world first group, for instance, is using healer DPS as a crutch "for poor DPS". It's to clear with that much less gear.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

Not to mention lustrate and fairy heals are unafected by cleric stance ^^

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Lustrate is affected. It's no longer a HP percentage, which now means WAR's Defiance no longer buffs it, either. Whereas ALL healing abilities (Benediction and Lustrate) used to be %HP, now the majority are unaffected by Defiance.

It depends on the group I end up with.If people are new or I see they are not executing the mechanics the way they should.I won't dps at all.But if I get a group that are doing things flawlessly.I will stance dance and heal when necessary.Healing always comes first to me.Dps second :3

That thread necro.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Lustrate is affected. It's no longer a HP percentage, which now means WAR's Defiance no longer buffs it, either. Whereas ALL healing abilities (Benediction and Lustrate) used to be %HP, now the majority are unaffected by Defiance.

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It isn't true anymore, but it was at the time it was posted (look at the date), so can't really call someone about it other than the guy who revived this thread.

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Originally Posted by revonine

That thread necro.

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Well healers are used to raising things.......