Please disable changing Cleric Stance during combat for make healer focus on healing.

Many people blame healer about no DPSing in end-contents. The problem come from DPS when Cleric Stance so high. If healer can't stance dancing during fight, the demand of healer DPSing will lower because it drain a lot of MP. When healer need to solo they can switch it from start, they don't need to stance dancing during solo. If other caster can solo then healer who use cleric stance from start should do it too. The development team never include healer DPS in DPS calculation. So stop cleric stance dancing will solve a lot of problem about healer DPSing and make them must focus on healing as they be.

From http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/125732-Game-Watch-Translation-Yoshida-Interview-on-Heavensward-%28EU-Media-Event-5-19%29

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Yes. Since all DPS jobs will be increasing up through level 60, it makes sense to have the white mage's DPS extend by a proportional amount as well. For development, such as with Bahamut's Coils, the development team assumes what the item level should be for general equipment on players when they clear a raid. They sum up the basic DPS for four DPS and tanks at that assumed item level and cut that by about 10-15% for the minimum clear DPS. Healer DPS is not taken into account when this is set.

Certainly for people who are at world's first level, their goal is to clear it at as low an item level as possible, lower than the one assumed during development. So if you look at the fight and figure out that if it's not numerically possible to clear with four DPS and tanks, you'll need to make up the gap with DPS from healers. Then when those publish clear videos and other people see the healers DPSing, they might think that healers need to be DPSing even though its a situation that only arose because their clear would have otherwise been impossible. While we could take this into account, and assume a different item level in the next update which would then make it impossible to clear even with the healer DPS, we'd eliminate this type of play for highly skilled players who use communication, items, and a high level of understanding to come up with those last second clears. That would be a tough decision to make, so I still think it should be up to each party's own plans.

This is also one of the reasons we decided to implement both a normal and savage version of Alexander. Once again, healer DPS was not included in the development team's calculation as it was for other jobs, so you should just think of healer DPS as a last way to get your overall party's DPS up to where it needs to be.

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It wasn't considered for the 2.0 storyline, BUT they have announced that Healers will be expected to DPS in Heavensward! I just wish there wasn't a cool-down on clicking Cleric Stance, and that we can click it while casting other spells.

Uh, no, parties should have the right to play their healer roles as they see fit. What you're talking about is bad players and playstyle disagreements. Don't punish me and my friends just because of someone else's incompetence. A good healer knows how to stance dance. A bad healer DPS wannabe will fall flat on their face over and over.

There are no problems in healer DPSing, so there's no need for what you're suggesting. Being able to balance healing and DPS to different degree in different content is one of the key factors that makes current healer jobs interesting to play in and especially outside endgame content. Taking this interesting part away would probably make less people play healers in content where most of their actions are focused on DPS (especially 4 person dungeons) which would harm the whole playerbase.

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Originally Posted by Kemonologist

The development team never include healer DPS in DPS calculation.

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Good news! They will now.

Now if they start making non mage-y themed healers, I'd heal more.

A good WHM knows how much they can push and still be good for MP. If the healer is DPSing until their MP runs dry then they are a bad healer. I personally hate seeing a healer just standing around, doing nothing when there is nothing to heal. That is seriously irritating, there will be no healers if healing is reduced to that boredom.

People should learn their Job better.

Please do not discredit Cleric Stance, it is an important tool that a skilled healer uses to take small, calculated risks to help the party's DPS. If a healer is getting someone killed from lack of attention, that is the healer's fault, and it's a mistake they should take note of to avoid in the future. Heal first, then think about damage.

Every party member should be thinking about damage, the encounter continues until your enemy is dead, draining everyone's resources in the process. Even tank DPS is significant for raid progression. I've been healing (and stance dancing!) since beta 2.0, and this kind of change would probably drive me away from healing entirely.

Let's also disable tanks changing stances during battle, so they can focus on tanking.

Where is it saying that they are expecting healers to DPS and fine tuning the encounters as such? I only see this being referenced to approaching for world firsts (where you are using less-than-ideal stats/ilvl in all spectrums, including outgoing dps)

1 - Please disable songs from BRD...BRD is a DPS it shouldn't have to sing and decrease its damage!
2 - Please remove sword oath from PLD it's a tank class!
3 - Please remove raise from SMN, a SMN shouldn't be able to raise, it only hurts their mana and they are supposed to DPS!

All in all, your suggestion is absolutely terrible, it wouldn't please absolutely anyone, and good luck finding players who would want to play the healer role under your no cleric perfect world if you limit their jobs even more and make them more dumb and tedious. You take away cleric stance from my SCH and I can assure you it stops being my main in less than a fraction of a second.

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Originally Posted by Seryl199

Please do not discredit Cleric Stance, it is an important tool that a skilled healer uses to take small, calculated risks to help the party's DPS.

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God, this. Wish they'd made other adjustments to stop the 8 WHM Holy spam roflstomping in PVP rather than taking away Cleric Stance. Just straight heal-bombing is boring.

If you paid attention to the CNJ quest line it more or less implies you need to do MORE than just simply heal, so no.

So if you get your wish and all the healers are practically gone leaving you with plds to heal or smns... don't come back here crying. Think ques are long now? If this gets implemented it will be "average wait time: forever". Did you stop to think before... no, you didn't.

Welp, here is one of the "bad idea's of the day" for the morning.

Hey, TC.

No.

The healers asking for this and complain about healers being asked to dps are the ones who like to be lazy. You know the ones who you get in dungeons that just stand around doing nothing with full mp in between the occasional heal to the tank. It irritates me every time i get a healer like that. Makes me want to fight only using full thrust over and over and nothing else. The healer doesn't think he needs to perform to his max so why should i.

Defiance should be permanently on, because wars a tank and shouldn't be expected to dps. Oh wait they are adding an even more offensive stance who's purpose is only to dps more.

Pld should have sword oath deleted because it's a tank. Oh wait they are getting a non enmity generating skill with Dot in expac to dps more.

Whm shouldn't dps either. Oh wait, they are getting stone AND aero 3 in expac to dps harder.

Healers and tanks shouldn't be expected to dps. Oh wait, the game developers are designing them to do so even more.

Tldr: devs and forum completely disagree with OP.

Sorta hate this whole "every healer should dps or they suck or they're lazy" nonsense. In my opinion if you like healing and stance dancing while doing it good for you, however don't sit there and force it down other healers throats, I like healing to heal not to be some hybrid healer/dps thing.

*Twitch* Not this nonsense, again.

Though, I will say, your post title and what you're saying sound like two different things.
The title sounds like you're saying, "Make Cleric unusable so they can't DPS and make them heal slaves". There was a similarly titled anti-cleric stance rage-post in another sub-forum that had entirely laughable reasons - so you'll have to excuse the bulking.
To that I say, there is no fault to the skill. There is only fault in it's user if a person ignores healing responsibility in favor of DPSing.

The contents of your post, though, sound more like you don't want people to expect/demand DPS from the healers - therefore make it unusable for the healer? If I am reading it correctly?
This sounds a little less aggressive -against- healers, but rather sounds like you personally are trying to escape that demand? If you or someone else is getting harassed for not DPSing, then that's the fault of the harassing players for being rude if a situation arises. There are always more diplomatic ways to get ideas passed along (I just rarely see this in MMOs). I personally don't see a reason not to DPS if nothing is going on, but I don't say anything when I see healers just standing around - unless it's vital. Maybe they're new. Maybe they're under confident or insecure. Who knows.
I'm the type of healer that stance dances when I feel secure enough to do so (except that cool down.... uugh), and DPS. If I -don't- feel secure but still see no reason to heal right then, I'll toss a few non-clericed DPS (I know it's not maximized/efficient DPS, but I prioritize healing unless secure/confident... but better than doing nothing) so I can automatically step-cancel and switch to heal if the occasion arises (such as more chaotic parties or fights where I can't chance the CS CD).
Lots of people are not happy just sitting in the boundaries of a role, and therefore push the limits (such as healer DPSing, when they weren't designed with that expectation) - it's human nature.
There are, however, fights that -need- everyone to DPS hard in order to survive (such as Odin Trial.... though I haven't been in there since before WoD/gear upgrades), and some have mentioned fights in FCoB (Sorry, only gotten up to SCoB/T9 at this point, so I don't have first hand experience as to which points in FCoB).

With less raiding in mind and more dungeon-relatable example, since I don't know what content you're refering to - there have been points in time where a DPS dropped party, or died, or AFKed and the healer was able to make up for the DPS loss through Cleric.
Or.... tank and a DPS one hit KO'd in a boss (IE, coincounter), respawned before I could raise, get locked out and it was just I on healer and one other DPS to take it down. Cleric'd Aero/Aero II is pretty nice while kiting.

While I disagree with the OP I've always felt that healer DPS is a bonus and not really an expectation as some of you seem to be making it out to be. The stance this community has taken about this issue (Healers who DPS are good, those that don't are fail) is a little off-putting tbh. While I love anyone who goes the extra mile, the hate that people who don't do so get around here is a little ridiculous.

Also, the quote explicitly states that they don't tune encounters with healer DPS in mind.. I really don't get where some of you are getting this from.

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Originally Posted by Saseal

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To give some perspective in FCoB, you don't need healer dps to meet enrage timers unless you're in cutting edge progression/world first. The latter puts yourself in a scenario where the dps is doing the bare minimum, if not less than the required dps to meet the enrage timers. They typically have more than enough hp to survive damage nukes like megaflares because they're using melded accessories to meet the hp requirements (which in return lowers their dps). http://i.imgur.com/stney.gif

Cleric Stance is what separates the good players from the mediocre players. Though at the same time, I do not put my expectations on a pug healer to have to mix in their dps (especially if they're not comfortable with it). It's what you see in dps and tanks as well; whether or not they go above and beyond their role, whether it be surviving big pulls or letting a 10-20 minute expertise dungeon come to pass.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

To give some perspective in FCoB, you don't need healer dps to meet enrage timers unless you're in cutting edge progression/world first. The latter puts yourself in a scenario where the dps is doing the bare minimum, if not less than the required dps to meet the enrage timers.

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Aha, thanks! I might have read some posts/FCoB mentions out of context, then

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Originally Posted by FrozenSoupZOMG

Sorta hate this whole "every healer should dps or they suck or they're lazy" nonsense. In my opinion if you like healing and stance dancing while doing it good for you, however don't sit there and force it down other healers throats, I like healing to heal not to be some hybrid healer/dps thing.

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There is so much downtime in endgame content so why not throw some DPS in when you can maybe abit of Holy to stun lock trash, instead of standing around like a cabbage waiting for people to get hit.
You don't have to be pulling 300+ Whilst keeping everyone alive just some extra DPS here and there makes runs even faster for you and everyone else.

I'm fairly sure I've seen the healer get reprimanded for not stance dancing a few times in some random DFs (which is silly; if you're signing up for a DF, you're already throwing that min/max expectation out the window unless you -want- to have a bad time and cause others to have a bad time as well). Personally, I'm not terribly comfortable with it. I'll throw DPS in when I can without cleric on, but I rarely feel like I have the time to switch AND deal with the cooldown, although on rare occasion I do. Personally, if the tank yelled at me for it, I'd counter that they aren't doing THEIR job well enough for me to safely pull it off. It'd accomplish nothing, since reasoning with those types of people isn't really possible, but it's something.

OP is may be thinking on other mmos where the healer is just a healer. This is not that type of mmo. You need to learn to adjust to the different game mechanics you will encounter.

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Originally Posted by hobostew

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I have to agree - healers are doing double duty with DPSing AND healing, so I don't agree the aggressive "DPS or you suck" stance that is sometimes taken. I certainly don't force that on other healers (again, unless it's Odin in the middle of casting Zanketshjdkssomethingrather and theres no reason to do anything else) whether I'm co-healing or on DPS. I may not agree with it 100% but I'm more open to "To each their own".
I just wish others were - on both sides of the fence - *More open minded, *Willing to push themselves

The post that was mentioned was from a Live letter or one of the big events (Paris, I believe?) held by SE in which they talked about Heavensward. I've honestly forgotten which/where I read it. The developers didn't think healers would DPS as much as we were in the game (so they didn't factor in healer DPS when creating party content), so they decided to give healer roles more DPS-based skills in Heavensward.

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Originally Posted by Bhuni

There is so much downtime in endgame content so why not throw some DPS in when you can maybe abit of Holy to stun lock trash, instead of standing around like a cabbage waiting for people to get hit.
You don't have to be pulling 300+ Whilst keeping everyone alive just some extra DPS here and there makes runs even faster for you and everyone else.

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I actually do dps here and there once i gauge the group a bit, however it's usually my choice when i do so not someone else. Just really hating the turn the community is taking with the whole healer dps thing. I always saw it as a bonus not a requirement as it's becoming nowadays. (sorry if this appears twice still a newb with forum stuff)

They need to just remove the CD on cleric. That'll help those who aren't comfortable with stance-dancing and likely have a neutral-to-positive impact on those who are. I suspect most of the discomfort people have arises from the penalty.

InB4- But it takes skill to Cleric. Make those noobs git gud, blah, blah, blah. If you can still continue to stance-dance per usual, why do you care?

hahahaha, we r getting new dpsing skills and u want to take out CS on combat?? hahahaha, If a healer cant heal properly and dps is because they are bad Whm or sch, dont blame de skill

I like having the options to be able to DPS as a healer when the opportunity presents itself. Even the dev team agrees with this.

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Certainly for people who are at world's first level, their goal is to clear it at as low an item level as possible, lower than the one assumed during development. So if you look at the fight and figure out that if it's not numerically possible to clear with four DPS and tanks, you'll need to make up the gap with DPS from healers.

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And they're increasing our DPS potential

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Since all DPS jobs will be increasing up through level 60, it makes sense to have the white mage's DPS extend by a proportional amount as well.

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Quoted directly from the line you pulled out.

Please don't take away the tools I enjoy using when I do dungeons and raid. Thank you.

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Originally Posted by Terrini

It wasn't considered for the 2.0 storyline, BUT they have announced that Healers will be expected to DPS in Heavensward! I just wish there wasn't a cool-down on clicking Cleric Stance, and that we can click it while casting other spells.

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I would actually prefer the cooldown, but a shorter one, for both enabling and disabling it.
Often times I'm mashing it to turn it off and end up turning it back on. Oops!


But in regards to the topic, I would like to see healers encouraged to dps more often, rather than stand around waiting for a time to heal. It really keeps the flow going and, in my experiences as a healer, adds more fun and excitement than it is to stand and do nothing. In the end, it's optional, so both playstyles can work fine.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

http://i.imgur.com/stney.gif

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By the way.
*Rage-slaps monitor a million times in anti-insect sentiment*

As someone who mains Scholar I am offended at this.

I have no issue swapping between DPSing and healing on the fly- and in fact it is the primary core reason I love healing in this game. I don't just spam heals all day long senselessly. I get in there and smack some faces too while my fairy offheals. I can as a scholar do 5 things at once very easily and cleric stance allows me to be efficient in doing these things.

Just because you had someone use a skill wrong doesn't mean that it isn't an AMAZING and USEFUL skill- it is an amazing and useful ability and lets us fulfill and bring more to the team. You should be happy for that.

I agree with desufin, I have never seen this "healers are discriminated for not DPSing" environment, he probably had a bad experience about a dumb group of people harassing him or some friend of him for not DPSing as a healer, but guess what, dumb people will always harass anyway.
Stop spreading false bs saying that "healers must DPS now" is becoming the norm, because it isn't.

People also sometimes complain about BRDs not singing. What should we do? Get rid of BRDs' songs so that people playing BRD don't feel discriminated when they are not confident singing?

And then you ask yourselves why we can't have nice things like ingame parsers. Well, people like the TC are the reason.

Let's just disable everything, let's make the game a straight corridor where you just win by spamming X (FFXIII anyone?). Don't give players the chance to press O because those that are used to only pressing X might possibly feel discriminated.

Don't hate on Cleric Stance, hate on the bad healers who don't pay attention and forget to turn it off, leading to unnecessary wipes. Psst -- This is a very small fraction of healers, surprisingly.

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Originally Posted by Terrini

It wasn't considered for the 2.0 storyline, BUT they have announced that Healers will be expected to DPS in Heavensward! I just wish there wasn't a cool-down on clicking Cleric Stance, and that we can click it while casting other spells.

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Well from what I could ascertain from the info given, it is only for Alex savage where healer DPS will make or break the fight. For everything else it will help but won't be required.

Annoys me these posts that try to take away from what is in game just because the OP doesn't want to or cannot (which I find more believable) from those who are capable of pushing their job to its full potential. By being able to DPS as a healer it adds depth to the job instead of a singular focus.

Also disabling cleric stance in combat won't stop healers from DPSing at all. It will just make their DPS less effective. It doesn't increase mana cost being in clerics.

To sum up: Just because you unable to manage role switching when feasible does not mean no-one else should be able to. Stop being so selfish and get better at your role.

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Originally Posted by Terrini

It wasn't considered for the 2.0 storyline, BUT they have announced that Healers will be expected to DPS in Heavensward! I just wish there wasn't a cool-down on clicking Cleric Stance, and that we can click it while casting other spells.

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Partially true. Alexander Hard (Extreme? Seriously, unless it's part of the main story does Hard need be called Extreme?) will be balanced with Healers DDing occasionally whereas Normal will be run as normal, with healers only expected to heal. No, seriously, Square was genuinely surprised by Healers not healing. To think they ran all of Coil with not a single Healer contributing to DDing (how do you think they set the iL for the content? By running them themselves with a variety of gear sets).

Append: Oops, wrong quote. And very late to the party. ^<^;

Wow what a bad post

I have recently got into healing (my first 50 was SMN so I kinda had an instant SCH) and found it fun without the use of Cleric though things would get boring. I have had those runs where I was forced to be a heal bot and found that it really limits my potentional to help the party get through mobs faster. Knowing when you can stance dance adds a good layer of complexity to healing if this was disabled during combat it would basically force healers to be heal bots and like I said there is no fun in that at least for me. So it is best to leave it as is so there is an option for those that want to dps and for those that don't let them just heal there is more than one way to play a role

Sure, let's remove options so as to forcibly lower the bar even further where healer expectations are concerned. I don't think that the OP intended to make a joke, but that's really what this thread is, I'm afraid.

I'd be offended if I thought for a moment that Yoshi and team would actually consider removing CS for group play, but based on Yoshi's commentary, that's obviously not happening.