Hello players interested in bettering their time spent in dungeons. I can promise you an increase in Commendations, and the thrill and heartbeat spikes of being the best you can be.
Shit is situational. Adapt, (every run is slightly different as tanks are people and not machines,) and don't rush to the meat of your rotation. And know if it just won't work... sometimes there is not enough oomfph or know-how.
As soon as you zone in start casting Stoneskin II. Then protect when the loading circle falls. I usually don't stoneskin the slowpokes unless it was the tank.
I am quite overgeared, current Expert: Roulette, you pull everything to a stop and most tanks do it anyway. The altars with trash of WP HM can be done in 2 pulls with most parties, but you really need to sprint and stoneskin the tank as he gets them. First is 2 groups, then it's the last 3 to the door. You will have trouble with 3, ask for mage LB or remind the tank of their 5min ability being used early.
High: Roulette current playlist of dungeons has more variety in what pulls can be made. But as a full i130 WHM with 2 i110 rings that are DPS minded and a crit stick zeta... I like every pull to any door or stop. It's just easier with current gear. But I've been doing it this way for long before max gear.
The plan: potency+ HoT with Holy spam and burn down mobs before you run out of tricks.
I don't cure once I've prepped and started the Holy spam. I often get about 6 out before I need to tap off cleric and cure2 the tank. Sometimes, I'll simply bene them between holy and continue burning them down. Remember to move to stop casts while trying to bene for those oh shit moments.
When I zone in typically the most important thing i say asap, is, "Pull everything always, and convalesce once they are gathered." If I have time before they run off, or you know how to auto run and type, I suggest ask to claim everything so I can stoneskin otw (with sprint and line of sight consideration). Can you tell I am always in DF? (having to bother to ask simple etiquette.) I don't know why some tanks ranged at something they run through. Use the GCD for flash run through.... If the mobs aren't there, pause a sec then flash.... not hard....
Ok shut up and state the rotation:
On the way: stay up front with tank, don't aggro though, stoneskin as he pulls first set, then sprint, try to stoneskin after each new set or when they take a few hits, being near full when you start rotation at the kill spot is important.
At the kill spot: Eye for Eye if you didn't on the pull > Divine Seal > Cure II if necessary which WAR usually is > Medica II > Cure2? > Regen tank > Regen yourself? might need to > Cleric > If tank is low already I will Chainspell Holy to get that 3 sec stun asap, tank should have popped convalesce > If I didn't use swift cast on first I use it for second holy so the stun resistance doesn't happen so fast, no effect doesn't count as your 3 before resist > a few holys, target is on tank and eyes are on his hp in party bar (what buffs is he active with?), you MUST dodge the aoe, not the first few (ty stun) but super important after stun is useless > if you and your party are strong enough, sometimes I don't even have to cure until the swarm is halved and/or dead, if dead, be mp savvy and just stoneskin for auto-regen otw to next engagement.
A good tactic for the thicker pulls is the tank to use their 5min ability at the start of the pull, it is a tool, not an oh shit, and you don't need it on bosses.... like ever. This allows you to get those HoT up so you can get the trash thinned out before you and the tank have burned your best cool downs.
I hope the atrocious aesthetics of my layout don't discredit the solid game plan I am offering. It works for all the trash pulls and I am constantly getting good remarks and commendations. I use ACT... I see it working very well. In some crystal tower trash pulls I am top dps with often 1000+ DPS. Although CT are easy and you only need 1 healer, I tend to play DPS letting the other healer actually be engaged and solo heal us, and maintain 300-350 DPS depending on my MP. Speaking of single target DPS and bosses...
Single target DPS goals: keep Aero2 full time, Aero1 and fluid toss when you have to dodge, if you have far to run, spam aero1 while moving, it has initial dmg and its better than nothing. Have ethers handy, use shroud for mp, thank bards who see you are worth ballad. I never ask for ballad, and I try to never ask for a moment to get mp. You should know when to back off, or simply downgrade to just healing. Dumping hate with shroud is super useful and I hope you know you can use it between holy on those massive pulls above. Anyway Stone2 and presence of mind is wicked DPS. If you are struggling with MP just maintain both DoTs while you wait for ether cooldown or shroud. I use HQ Mega Ethers, cheap to make and lower cooldown, like 3:35?
Most of all HAVE FUN. If anyone is on gamepad and wants... I could bother giving my layout and the reasoning.
TL;DR E4E > DS > Med2 > Regen > Cleric > PoM > Holy > Swift > Holy x7 > Bene when needed - ask tanks to use convalesce and/or HG/Holm
Holy Deeps Batman: A WHM Speedrun Guide.
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06-04-2015, 11:45 PMJin_Holy Deeps Batman: A WHM Speedrun Guide.
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06-04-2015, 11:56 PMJin_
and one more thing.... challenge youreself: always offense in Ceric and never cure unless you drop it. Weave that cleric!
the challenge? always have DoTs up on boss.
and DS med2/regen in boss fights are awesome, that's how I find the time to get 200-250+ dps while main healing
DS is 1min recast, med2 lasts 30 sec, DS every other, and often just leave low hp until ds is back. If ppl can dodge, this works really well
Also if you have done DS med2 and a dps gets hit, just toss a regen on em while in cleric, adds just that little bit, and not so much hate.
Hate is never an issue shroud wont fix. If it is an issue and the huge hate dump of shroud wasn't enough, it's your tanks fault, not yours. -
06-05-2015, 12:05 AMCynfael
One thing I would suggest is omitting unnecessary Medica IIs for fluffing the tank prior to Holy rotation. I don't find that it's worth the time (during which the mobs are still beating on the tank) and MP to stop and cast; I proceed right into Holy stunlock.
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06-05-2015, 12:14 AMaerololThis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynfael
Also, a divine seal + medica2 will attract A LOT of unnecessary aggro towards you WHM. -
06-05-2015, 12:19 AMJin_
Well, I would agree to disagree, most tanks can handle it, as soon as they hit me, I pop Shroud, and continue, the HoT will refill me, and the tank usually has the attention for good after that.
Edit: if you go straight into Holy spam, you will be out of cleric sooner than later and doing the caretaking work, instead of the few more holys that could reduce the incoming damage and allow you to continue.
I've rarely had hate issues over medica2, just run to the tank, a flash or 2 and it's a non-issue -
06-05-2015, 12:52 AMwhiskeybravo
I've been enjoying holy spam in dungeons recently. WHM was my first 50, but got left behind for a long time while I mained tanks and drg and leveled up all the classes. I kinda forgot how ridiculously fun it is to blow up things with Holy spam lol
I personally forego the Med II, just stone skin, divine seal, regen on the tank. E4E if avail, PoM > Holy is enough to get off 5 or 6 in a chain.
One trick I learned that you probably know but didn't mention, you can turn off cleric while casting. It won't turn off until the cast is done, but after popping 5 or 6 holy it's about time for a heal usually, so pressing the cleric stance button while casting the last holy, it will que it and turn off immediately once it's done being cast. The same can be done with PoM and shroud, prolly divine seal too -
06-05-2015, 01:40 AMtechnoleLike the others I think its a bit of a waste on MP and possible aggro to use medica 2 on a pull, the tank should be the only one getting damage anyway so having DS+Regen, and E4E if it's up should be more than plenty to cover before going clerics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jin_
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06-05-2015, 02:08 AMJin_Ah yes, but when you have 2 melee dps and still do the whole pull, they are gonna get in aoe. Also the stack of HoT is like 2k a tick, and again, I don't have aggro issues with it, it WILL turn them all red, and you shroud, poof green, and almost done killing them all.Quote:
Originally Posted by technole
And yes, cleric toggle will count during a cast and take effect next gcd, its great for rolling into a cure2 from the Holy's
And MP management... by the time to open the door, run to the boss and Stoneskin2 full cast saving swift... you are full from 0
This only works if you pull everything, so the cd's are all complimenting each other. If you just get a few groups at a time, it is incredibly wasteful. You need a brave tank who knows what an all out WHM can do. -
06-05-2015, 05:35 AMVanilleFang
This feels really... braggy. Like, you talk a lot about yourself and what you have. I've rarely seen a "guide" that does that. I think its best just to state what you do, and give general tips, and then ask for feedback.
Besides dealing with speedruns really depends on how comfortable people are with specific things. Everyone isn't always comfortable with how things are done by someone else. This isn't the be-all-end-all of speedrunning as a WHM yet you make it out to be just that. -
06-05-2015, 05:54 AMCynfael
If you like to use Med 2 this way, that's fine; there are worse options, for sure. I just find that the fairly minor HoT doesn't make the difference between being forced to drop CS sooner or not, but getting down to the damage and stunlock faster can.
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06-05-2015, 06:07 AMAlexiell
I never tried stoneskin during the pull, does it cause no aggro?. Also, does it put you in battle (lowers your mana reg)? I often still regenerate MP while the tank pulls and try to delay my actions until im at full MP or have to keep the tank alive.
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06-05-2015, 06:19 AMRaminaxNo, though it's minor. The only way to actually get enemy attention with Stoneskin is if the tank isn't tagging things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexiell
Yes. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexiell
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06-05-2015, 06:24 AMJin_Good question, I did mention you may want to ask for the tank to claim everything on the way so you can keep stoneskin up. It puts you in battle, but you should be full when you start anyway. I don't think I'm more than a few hundred mp short of full by the time we get everything tagged.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexiell
To other comments: I really didn't mean to brag about my gear, it's almost expansion time.... my PLD is almost all augmented too.... it's been long enough that it is common. I figured some people might discredit the capability of this method because it is only for WHM that are fully geared, just as they are saying medica2 is weak and expensive.... but ignoring that it is DS and stacked with DS regen and the rest of my mp is able to be spent on Holy with no hate issues. Even with said high levels of MND, no hate issues! Just like in my daystar gear.
I don't apply it until everything stops at the tank and they are re-flashing, overpowering etc. That is when I pop DS and might need a cure2 as we get setup. I do about 4-5 holy and shroud, i might have a love tap, it's fine, then more holy, if it's longer than expected, Bene. By the time MP is low you can just spam cure1 and maybe reapply regen. No tank has complained to me yet....
But ya, sprint + stoneskin, is great for tanks that actually claim everything. Way less aggro until they can ramp it up on everything at the end. WHERE DS MEDICA2/REGEN NEVER PULLS IT OFF THEM!
This was my first guide, and I didn't want to spend forever on it. I know a few people will use what they want from it, and that's all I wanted, to share my experience. Take it with your grain of salt, but don't say it doesn't work, when I'm telling you it works fine for me. -
06-05-2015, 06:49 AMLyrica_AshtineIt does generate enmity, although very minor. However, enmity is still enmity. If you get on the hate list of any monster and the tank didn't at least stab them/flash them, you'll get on top of the list.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexiell
That aside, there's something about this guide
1) You won't have shroud up for every pull. If you do each pack's dying incredibly slow - You're forced to pull in segments in some dungeons.
2) Stun lasts 4 seconds at start, not 3. It's 3 seconds in PVP
3) You're including tank CDs. Which you, as a white mage, have no control over. One of the tank CDs includes the "5 minute ability". Warriors have no such thing and Paladin's Hallowed Ground has a 7 minute CD
4) If the tank tagged everything, healing would be more viable than Stoneskin. A Tomahawk/Shield lob dealing 200 damage is good for a cure/cure II worth of 2400 before overtaking in enmity. Even on a warrior with 12000 HP the stoneskin's only worth 2160 damage and takes longer to cast. Considering you can't run too far ahead of the tank - With mobs being in the way and all - you won't have that much of a head start before the tank passes you. Even less if he/she is sprinting. -
06-05-2015, 07:15 AMJin_
1) No you wont have shroud, but on the biggest stuff you will plan for it and save it, even without shroud, I rarely pull enough hate to make flashing reds, and by that time they are on the way to 6 feet under.
2) Forgive me, I was bored so I wrote this and should have check my timers before posting.
3) I suggested asking for them to convalesce after they've stopped. It's 50/50 if they listen, just less time in cleric if they ignore your co-op suggestion. Holmgang doesn't exist, and WAR need babying anyway since they all gear for STR
4) Stoneskin keeps you low on the table until you drop your various hate bombs. Toss/hawk are single target, just run through them and flash, I guess apples and oranges really. I prefer flashers, they are faster and often get ahead of mobs sooner while reliably claiming. And I dislike tanks that sprint pull... but I don't complain to them, and often if they have the balls to do so, they have the skills to back it up, I just don't help them otw to kill spot. But by the time they claim a DS Cure2 is in order. Then slowly cast medica 2, cure 2, regen, back in business.
I usually run right up front with tank, sometimes i misjudge and aggro... it draws them in, lends my stoneskin and they can... flash them all in a pile, non-issue. I use sprint to make up for the stoneskin cast, you learn when you can start moving and have the cast still land, also positions yourself so they stay in line of sight as they continue -
06-05-2015, 07:33 AMOdd
Medica 2 is not necessary on speed run pulls unless you're under geared. The only time I use it on dungeon pulls now is when there's aevis mobs with the air that can't be stunned.
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06-05-2015, 07:34 AMOdd
Bah can't edit on the mobile version, aoe* not air.
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06-05-2015, 09:19 AMCynfaelNo one is ignoring DS; most of us just don't find Medica II to be a very useful tool for prepping the tank in the way that you describe. DS+Regen, top off tank with an additional heal if necessary (often isn't), Swiftcast Holy and proceed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jin_
It's also not a matter of gear. A lot of people are tripping over Dreadwyrm and Augmented equipment by this point in the game, so your situation isn't uncommon; it's just a question of preference. -
06-05-2015, 11:46 AMGorlioliolio
Tank sprinting 10 feet ahead for agro is much better than you stoneskinning mid pull, if you are going for record setting speed runs at least, if you just want to be mediocre and get your runs done fastish then follow the OPs guide on how to pull things.
What I mean is, tank > shield lob first mob, pop sprint, everyone else stay at least 10-15 feet back so they don't accidently agro anything, pop sprint as well.
Tank gets to spot, oh look original stoneskin still up cus he didn't stop randomly to flash things, and guess what you just got there 50% quicker. Also he didn't waste any flashes on 2-3 mobs, and didn't waste any mp on it either.
As whm you run just past the tank so you don't get stuck in an aoe that will be about to happen when the mobs get there, tank use your cooldown of choice as they arrive and begin flash spam, stoneskin drops as they all get there, do your thing whm. -
06-05-2015, 06:50 PMYona87Ouch.Quote:
Originally Posted by VanilleFang
10chars. -
06-05-2015, 08:27 PMmp-please
This is one thing i love on this community, you write guides for everything even if it's just 1 button mashing and think you're being useful.
Dpsing as whm is probably one of the easiest things on this game, you e4e > DS > regen (> cure II if tank needs to be topped), turn cleric on, spam holy till you feel tank needs a heal depending on incoming dmg then either benediction or turn cleric off for direct heal. That's all there is for a WHM dps guide.
On medica II, I don't use it, the time i spend casting it i could be already spamming holy and most DF tanks can't handle my holy enmity so yea, i'm not risking that and medica II. -
06-05-2015, 09:47 PMSeryl199I'm inclined to disagree with your choice of wording, WHM DPS is straightforward to be sure, but I wouldn't say it's easy. It really takes experience to squeeze out as much damage as you can without being a danger to your party, and a healer's intuition to know when to heal, and when you can let your tank sweat it out a bit, knowing all the while that you have things under control.Quote:
Originally Posted by mp-please
@ OP, thanks for posting, and don't worry if folks nitpick over the finer details. Your playstyle may differ from the next player's, whose style likely is different from the next. I myself don't use Medica II, I find it leaves too big an opening where I'll need to patch up the tank with a Cure II before I can Holy. Ideally, I Stoneskin between packs like yourself, reach the tank,
Divine Seal > Regen > E4E > Swiftcast > Holy > SoS > PoM > Holy (6-8 times) > Benediction > Holy > Stoneskin the tank on completion.
I'm forced to manage threat carefully with this method, since I use Shroud early, but it keeps my MP high throughout the pull, and if I see that DPS is slow, I'm able to pull back on Holy and sit on a large MP pool to keep the tank alive for a while.
For single target damage, Aero II and Aero up time should be constant, if you're in an easy encounter you can pop Swiftcast oGCD for a quick Holy to bump up your damage a tiny bit. I just hate seeing it on CD for the duration of a battle. Fluid Aura on CD if the target is immune to knockback or is right up against the wall (we want to avoid cornering the mob's butt and blocking MNK or DRG's positionals).
All in all, I agree with much of the content in your post, and I encourage budding WHM's out there to try Holy. You might make mistakes that could wipe the party, but you'll learn from them. You'll learn what lines to toe and where your (and your party's) limits are, and you will definitely see a commend or two for the impressive damage and finessed healing. -
06-05-2015, 11:17 PMwhiskeybravoWar is one of my main classes, and using Holmgang with large dungeon pulls sucks. Sure, it could keep you alive. However, 95% of the time it just roots you in multiple aoe which makes it harder on the heals, and sometimes it's impossible to recover.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jin_
As for the suggestion of Convalescence.. For War in particular I don't think that's the best CD to use up front. Getting a bit off-topic but Vengeance+bloodbath is always what I pop first, good mitigation plus return heals. Really large pulls will follow with berserk+internal release for more self heals from SC/Overpower spam. After those are gone it Conv/Foresight/Awareness/Thrill/etc til dead.