what is level from lore perspective?

why the seasoned adventurer in Revenant Toll have level 46 (?). while the Brass Blade in Ul'dah only have level 5(?)

Does level have a place in lore? has it mentioned somewhere? or it just another of game mechanic

Mor Dhona is a level 45-50 area though where as Ul'dah is a starting city, hence the Brass Blades low levels. Having said that, the very concept of levels and experience is merely an abstract way of reflecting a character's skill and prowess in fighting (yes yes I know Disciples of the Hand and Land also have levels and exp, but that's essentially the same concept: reflecting a character's ability and skill in a certain area as a numeric value.)

Lore wise, there is no lore basis in levels (except possibly within the Guilds as a means of 'grading' members proficiency in their discipline), so this is definitely an example of gameplay and story segregation, mixed with improbale power discrepancy.

Level (and ilvl) is at the same time a skill progression and a story progression, you won't be stronger at lvl 60 than lvl 50 story wise, you will fight primals that are as strong as the 2.0 ones but will be of higher level because they are farther in the story.

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Originally Posted by lololink

Level (and ilvl) is at the same time a skill progression and a story progression, you won't be stronger at lvl 60 than lvl 50 story wise, you will fight primals that are as strong as the 2.0 ones but will be of higher level because they are farther in the story.

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That's not really true, though. For example Garuda Story Mode is described as being much more powerful than Ifrit or Titan before her, and she is appropriately higher level. Then Ultima Weapon comes along and displays itself to be significantly more powerful than the primals, and is again a higher level.

Yes that's what I said it was both, indeed Primals EX are stronger than their HM or NM versions, but I meant the player lvl, in a matter of skills there is a time where we don't get stronger story wise, we learn new skills but our strength remain the same, and to simulate the story going on in the game it's made through lvl and ilvl, between ilvl 50 and ilvl 130 we are 2 times stronger game wise but in the reality we aren't stronger, it's just the story going on.


At lvl 60 you'll meet dragonflies that might hit harder than Garuda, are at Higher level than Garuda but not because they are stronger than a primal, but because they are farther in the story so they have to be stronger to reflect that. It can of course mean an increase in strength ( for EX primals as an example ) too but it's mostly story progressing, or else all the EX primals would be mostly the same ilvl requirement.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Mor Dhona is a level 45-50 area though where as Ul'dah is a starting city, hence the Brass Blades low levels. Having said that, the very concept of levels and experience is merely an abstract way of reflecting a character's skill and prowess in fighting (yes yes I know Disciples of the Hand and Land also have levels and exp, but that's essentially the same concept: reflecting a character's ability and skill in a certain area as a numeric value.

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Godbert lvl99 or lvl100? lol...

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Originally Posted by MaethusXion

Godbert lvl99 or lvl100? lol...

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Level Mander-Mander-Manderville.

Don't think too hard on it. Level is a game mechanic. We don't have a lore explanation for the wandering minstrel and the non xiv triple triad cards as well. Of course I have an idea for the latter.
Some things aren't meant to be explained.

I'm sure the level 52 Wild Chocobos in Ishgard could solo Ultima Weapon, given that they said lv51+ mobs would have much higher stats to not get faceroller by i130+ players, plus Chocos have cure and regen and such. In FFXI there were level 120 rabbits in the later expansions that likely could have soloed the Shadow Lord, whom led a war against the 3 nations and had godlike strength.

Sadly, things like Level and HP don't translate very well into lore/RP mechanics. They're purely an abstraction and there's little to no mapping between the two.

Like you said, Brass Blades will show as level 5 but serve their purposes in story scenes regardless of any perceived level differences (being vague to avoid spoilers).

Thinking of level in this way is similar to thinking of HP in a case of getting hit by that bad guy's axe twenty bajillion times and still not dying. Sure, you can say that Curative magick is potent... Or you can say that HP is an abstraction of your resolve to not go down, the defensive capabilities of your armour, the assistance of magick and any other numbers of factors that all get nicely wrapped up in that set of numbers.

then how do we translate the progression between original (2.0) to heavensward (3.0)?
things we know
* all new job will only availaible in the expansion area
* all new job will start at level 30
* level and ilevel will be generally higher than 2.0

things we assume
* ishgardian folks are stronger than eorzean (reason)
* there will be no local ishgardian equivalent to eorzean adventurer
* if there's any equivalent to eorzean adventurer in ishgard, will they start their adventure at higher level than us (eorzean)?

Thats more like an example of story and gameplay segregation. Ishgardians MAYBE are more trained that an average Eorzean due to the dravanian menace, but if we take gameplay level reasons a small platoon of Ishgardians alone could have eaten alive the Black Wolf Legion. Hell with 10 extra levels the aditional equip and the damage mitigation for being overleveled would make the HoL looks like a pussy

Well Ishgardian knights have been proven to be pretty useless so far, so I don't think they are that much stronger. But we are traveling into Dravania where the dragons challenge us in new ways while uncovering long lost sharlayan lore. All of these could lead to an increase in power. Add the fact that Machinists use the latest cutting edge technology.

The lore concept behind levels (in any RPG) is simply a measure of how skilled your character is. That's why the points earned to gain levels are called Experience. But for gameplay purposes, the extent to which your capabilities change with level is grossly exaggerated. A more realistic depiction of skill levels would have to either use only a very few levels across the entire span of the game, or else make the distinction between one level and the next so negligibly small it isn't even noticeable. Neither of those works well for gameplay in such a progression-oriented genre.

So lore-wise, I'd regard a level 50 character or mob as somewhat stronger or more skilled than a level 10 one, but not nearly to the extent that gameplay makes them. The fact that a level 30 character can easily wipe out swarms of level 20 mobs, but is helpless against a level 40 one is a game mechanic (whereas the lore version would be having just a slight advantage or disadvantage in strength).

Level is a game play mechanic for balance reasons to and determine the proper challenge for a player or group of players. Even if the monsters are stronger in a new zone or expansion, it does denote the level of danger but overall level is simply a mechanic for players and designers to know how strong and capable their characters are.

Lore wise our heroes are very capable people no matter the level, though often the scope is tied to the level of the threat where at low levels we are dealing with issues that affect just a single city-state to more global concerns at level 50+, if anything the biggest tie between level and lore is the scope of our actions and their impact on the world.

Level 1 we are nobodies, level 10-15 we are recognized local adventurers of skill, by 30 we are local heroes of Eorzea, by 50 we are renowned champions that have a great deal of influence and I expect by 60 we will be big damn heroes hose very presence will influence grand events just like the end of 2.55. But ultimately level is just a gameplay mechanic.

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Originally Posted by Vanifae

Lore wise our heroes are very capable people no matter the level, though often the scope is tied to the level of the threat...

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While I agree that the scope of what we're facing is a great deal of it, there is some progression in character skill involved as well.

Remember those first level 1 class quests, where it's a matter of things like: "So you were able to discern one end of the spear from the other. Good." or "Well, you've passed the first test─gripping your knife by the handle and not the pointy end." At level 1, we really are considered to be brand new at this, having just picked up a weapon or tool for the first time and not learned how to use it yet.

We're initially chosen by Hydaelyn for our promise and potential, not (yet) for our skill. We start with an adventurous spirit and an aptitude for learning martial skills (as well as other skills if we decide to go down the DoL/DoH route), but we don't start out already having much skill. That comes with time and Experience. (Experience that's neatly measured in points for gameplay purposes, but is important lore-wise as well for explaining how we go from neophytes to skilled warriors.)

Well yes there is growth, but again it's all just a player-game mechanic really and the quests show us progressing much faster than the norm. Also level is kind of meaningless when it comes to lore be cause we fight level 50 bandits and level 10 bandits and it isn't implied those level 50 bandits are kings of the bandit world just an equal or apt challenge for our character.

But yes growth is implied in an MMO.

I remember someone calculating back in the day how much HP real humans would have, and it's something like 12HP. But these were in D&D terms where getting punched dealt 0HP damage usually but instead dealt injury or subdual damage (think of Stamina Gauge from metal gear, how you can win boss fights by KO'ing them instead of killing them. I think it was something like a gunshot to the head would deal like 70 HP. Ou and 95% of humans would be, at best, level 2 commoners. The values/stats sere related to other significant animals/organisms i.e. Elephants had like 800 HP

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

I remember someone calculating back in the day how much HP real humans would have, and it's something like 12HP. But these were in D&D terms where getting punched dealt 0HP damage usually but instead dealt injury or subdual damage (think of Stamina Gauge from metal gear, how you can win boss fights by KO'ing them instead of killing them. I think it was something like a gunshot to the head would deal like 70 HP. Ou and 95% of humans would be, at best, level 2 commoners. The values/stats sere related to other significant animals/organisms i.e. Elephants had like 800 HP

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Interesting, though as there are cases of humans getting shot to the head and surviving, how would you gauge that in terms of damage? Would it simply be a luck role that negated the majority of the damage from it, or would it be that said human had higher HP? Or a combination of the two?

EDIT: I would like to note that I'm not a D&D player, so my knowledge of mechanics within it is very rudimentary at best......

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Originally Posted by Gamer3427

Interesting, though as there are cases of humans getting shot to the head and surviving, how would you gauge that in terms of damage? Would it simply be a luck role that negated the majority of the damage from it, or would it be that said human had higher HP? Or a combination of the two?

EDIT: I would like to note that I'm not a D&D player, so my knowledge of mechanics within it is very rudimentary at best......

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Probably a very elaborate targeting system, where damage from one angle or another causes different damage because it fails to cause the same injury as another angle. But something that complicated would really be less fun to play than a regular game of D&D, simply because its intricacies would take too long to make playing viable.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Then Ultima Weapon comes along and displays itself to be significantly more powerful than the primals, and is again a higher level.

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Ultima stole the power of Ifrit, Titan and Garuda, of course he is going to be more powerful >.>.

To me, levels in lore always just seems like growing up and learning more.

I like to think of it how Log Horizon put it that experience is literal memories that you experienced and learned from. If that's the case, then levels are milemarkers by which experience (learning experiences) are measured by, during which you figure out or learn how to use new skills, and learn how to use your old skills in better ways, making them stronger, and perhaps yourself stronger through exercising your physical and magical muscles.

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Originally Posted by Gamer3427

Interesting, though as there are cases of humans getting shot to the head and surviving, how would you gauge that in terms of damage? Would it simply be a luck role that negated the majority of the damage from it, or would it be that said human had higher HP? Or a combination of the two?

EDIT: I would like to note that I'm not a D&D player, so my knowledge of mechanics within it is very rudimentary at best......

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Saving throw?

Generally, when you are subject to an unusual or magical attack, you get a saving throw to avoid or reduce the effect. Like an attack roll, a saving throw is a d20 roll plus a bonus based on your class, level, and an ability score. Your saving throw modifier is: Base save bonus + ability modifier.

Hit points don’t really translate to real life though, sure some people are tougher than others but health and damage are not very straight forward. You could take a grievous injury and survive and then be felled by a slight cut that gets infected. HP correlates usually to challenge, something with more HP should take longer to kill and allow it more time to kill you. In reality weapons are not designed to chop off points of health, they are usually designed to kill and a warrior will try to make the fight as short as possible in most situations because injuries by weapons tend to be life threatening and not just a minor inconvenience of losing two percent of health.

Even the most basic sword will kill if used properly, weather you are the greatest warrior on earth or just an innocent bystander noncombatant. MMO’s and RPG’s abstract this by adding health but in reality getting hit with a great sword or great axe more than once is probably going to be a very terminal day for that individual.

Anyway, I say all this to reiterate that level is purely a game mechanic and not a lore one other than denoting how “powerful” an individual is to others in some arbitrary number ranking system.

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Originally Posted by Vanifae

Hit points don’t really translate to real life though, <snip> I say all this to reiterate that level is purely a game mechanic and not a lore one other than denoting how “powerful” an individual is.

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That might be equating level with hit points a bit too much.

I'd certainly agree that hit points, as they're normally implemented, are an artificial game mechanic. A more realistic version would have hit points remaining pretty much constant, but level increases improving your chances to hit, and your chances for your hits to be solid ones doing crit damage. At the same time, they would also make you better at blocking / parrying / dodging so that your opponents blows are less likely to hit and less likely to crit even when they do hit. All that would, however, have been more complicated to compute, particularly in the pen and paper RPGs the genre evolved from where all such computations were being done by hand. For gameplay purposes, it mostly got streamlined into increasing your number of hit points instead of updating your hit, crit, block, parry, and dodge rates.

(Adding the increase as extra hit points also allowed another useful but non-realistic element - wide variation in weapon damage. Realistically, a good sword will cut better than a cheap one, but not ten times better. A cheap sword in the hands of a skilled swordsman is more deadly than a finely honed blade in the hands of a novice. But a game provides lots of rewards by having lots of chances to upgrade gear with increasingly stronger stuff.)

So levels, as a measure of how skilled you are (and to a slightly lesser extent how strong, but mostly how skilled) fit with lore, but the specifics of how they're implemented into gameplay, with their increasing hit points, and the exaggeration in how drastic of an advantage they give, don't.

I dont think level has a role in lore, its more for the gameplay part of FFXIV. The guards are level 5, because the player meets them at the start of the game and the ones at other location are higher level, because the player meets them later. If FFXIV was compared to a real life you could see it like:

Starter town = Pre-school
Level 10-20 zones = Elementary
Level 20-30 zones = Middle School
Level 30-40 zones = High School
etc.

We grow up as we become older, our characters grow up as they increase the level.