I like playing SMN and I like everything they put out in the last Live Letter

Thank you delightful FFXIV team.

I would rather you increase the Quality of my current Egi instead of just needlessly increasing the Quantity. They will hopefully be more interesting to use, which addresses my chief complaint as a SMN. Hopefully the Glamour system will not disappoint since looks are everything...except maybe the job being viable end game...; ; If you added a feature in the Glamour system for Egi that allowed players to change the size of their Egi maybe you could placate some of the more obtuse players.

Tri-Disaster was poorly named, thank you very much for assigning an appropriate skill to the name. It looks lovely in both design and mechanics. Tri-Bind...is an ok name for the old skill and to your credit, I can't really think of anything that would be more lore appropriate.

Hey lets talk about FF1-FF9: remember how Summons were 1 hit wonders and didn't stick around after you summoned them? Just BOOM and cya later. My goodness If I summoned Bahamut from this game then I would want him to cast Ahk Morn. Oh look, you did that. You made SMN do things that Summoners did for most of the FF series, thank you. Lets talk about FFXI: Odin and Alexander required you to 2hour to even cast them and then they don't stick around. It's like you've done something like this before but people can't remember it. Thanks for not making Bahamut accessible once every two hours.

Please don't be discouraged by people complaining that SMN is not supposed to be this way because you also have the support of less vocal people. Clearly you have a plan and it is attractive for anyone who isn't completely stuck on full size summons that play the game for you.

<3s for being great.

Bahamut casts megaflare, jerk!

#akhmorngate2015 #megaflare #neverforget

Akh morn can't melt megaflare beams.

I think the general sentiment is that smn's mechanics are perfect only that the delivery is somewhat underwhelming.

I'm sure if the dreadwyrm trance involved turning the egi into the animation of bahamut's head and akh morn is cast by the egi, they would have been much happier.

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Originally Posted by Shuon

I think the general sentiment is that smn's mechanics are perfect only that the delivery is somewhat underwhelming.

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What do you mean by delivery? If you mean spell effects, I prefer them simple. Big extravagant crap just makes it hard to see and forces me to turn off effects.

If you mean egis, I also prefer them small. It's not as big of a deal here, but in WoW where you have 20 raid members, it gets incredibly hard to see when you have a bunch of large, cool looking pets swarming the bosses ass.

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Originally Posted by Zaft

What do you mean by delivery?

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Here's my take on it. So, here's what we got.

1. An aoe attack that uses a stack of aetherflow.
2. Tri-Disaster (new one) that applies Bio, Bio II, and Miasma at the same time. (Note that Yoshi-P didn't say it costs aetherflow, that was a fumble of the interpreter)
3. A new single target attack.
4. Two new skills that significantly change our rotations (i.e. Dreadwyrm Trance and the Ahk Mor attack)

In the video they're shown in the order of Tri-Disaster, new Aoe, Dreadwyrm Trance, single target attack, and Ahk Mor.

Looking at 1, what if you could spend an aetherflow stack to have the Egi initiate the aoe attack shown in the video (graphics changing depending on the Egi used)?

Looking at 4, (I suggested this in a different thread) what if it was some sort of "Primal Trance" that activated a primal-based attack based on the Egi we had out at the moment?

Same results, different delivery. I personally think it was a missed opportunity to please multiple camps of people who wanted changes in Summoner.

The one thing that is irking people is no new Egi and the sad thing is they could have easily added one in the form of a timed pet like WoW's Infernal. Use Dreadwyrm Trance summons Bahamut Egi, who starts dps'ing while starting a __sec countdown to Tera Flare. The more bahamut stacks you have the higher damage his flare does at the end. After Tera Flare, Bahamut goes back to the void, cooldown and repeat. Boom, everyone happy...


*edit* Spellbinder hit the nail on the head too, just a missed opportunity all around.

Always remember that the displeased ones are often the loudest.

Most summoners are content with the job... We just see those complaint threads, roll our eyes, and think... "Not another one..." While I enjoyed the 'style' of FFX and FFXI summoner, what you said about the vast majority of 'summoners' is true. And... this one is different as well. I welcome change.

I'm really excited about the changes, particularly the LORE behind them. For example, what is the lore reason behind WHY we get Dreadwyrm Trance and can now throw Akh Morns? Considering the relation to the ending of Final Coil would be... really interesting.

As far as functionality... that's all speculation. We'll see. I'm sure it will be great.

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Originally Posted by Spellbinder

Here's my take on it. So, here's what we got.

1. An aoe attack that uses a stack of aetherflow.
2. Tri-Disaster (new one) that applies Bio, Bio II, and Miasma at the same time. (Note that Yoshi-P didn't say it costs aetherflow, that was a fumble of the interpreter)
3. A new single target attack.
4. Two new skills that significantly change our rotations (i.e. Dreadwyrm Trance and the Ahk Mor attack)

In the video they're shown in the order of Tri-Disaster, new Aoe, Dreadwyrm Trance, single target attack, and Ahk Mor.

Looking at 1, what if you could spend an aetherflow stack to have the Egi initiate the aoe attack shown in the video (graphics changing depending on the Egi used)?

Looking at 4, (I suggested this in a different thread) what if it was some sort of "Primal Trance" that activated a primal-based attack based on the Egi we had out at the moment?

Same results, different delivery. I personally think it was a missed opportunity to please multiple camps of people who wanted changes in Summoner.

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It's likely for balance reasons. Think of it like this: Around 2/3 of your damage comes from you, and 1/3 from your pet. If your pet is busy doing an action (such as #1 or #4), your DPS will be higher, because you are able to continue DPSing. So they have two choices. One, make the damage from the attack high, but require the player to use it. Or two, make the damage from the attack lower, but have the pet use it. These two would balance out to the same number, but I would argue that it's cooler to see myself do awesome damage, than see my pet do moderate damage while I continue DOTing.

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Originally Posted by Zaft

snip

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Well, considering summoner doesn't appear to be designed as a burst DPS class like black mage (although I'm not so sure anymore considering these changes), I see no reason why they couldn't have gone with the former.

At the end of the day, it boils down to a matter of opinion and the two options you pointed out. I'll be biding my time until 4.0 or some later 3.X patch when the Egi might finally get a little attention.

That's not to say I want more of them or giant skyscraper summons as people seem to constantly suggest people are asking for (and I'll admit some are). I'd just like to see a little more interaction than Contagion once a minute with Garuda or Sic and auto-pilot with Ifrit.

My personal quarral of the SMN is, they aren't using Summons as their source of action, and that is all

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Originally Posted by Spellbinder

Well, considering summoner doesn't appear to be designed as a burst DPS class like black mage (although I'm not so sure anymore considering these changes), I see no reason why they couldn't have gone with the former.

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One of the major problems with SMN in raid environments (amongst others) is that they have very little burst, and I imagine they're trying to alleviate that issue with this change. Fester can only go so far, especially when the enemy doesn't spawn in a location where it can be Bane'd.

I, along with many others, like SMN the way it is right now... I find them boring, but I like they way they work. They just simply needed something more interesting than Ruin/Ruin II all the time, and some burst damage.

They're giving SMN that, which IMO makes them a lot more appealing just because of that, and the Dreadwyrm Trance made it even more interesting.

*Sorry for this part*
Deleted

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Originally Posted by Craiger

There could be slightly more interaction with the pet, but you haven't even seen a single new pet action...

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I keep seeing this, and I have to keep repeating myself. Yoshi-P has made no statements of new pet abilities.

Listening to the Japanese (not the English interpreter because she kept making mistakes), he said rather than adding pets, in the long term it'd be better to focus on adding to the summoner him or herself. The English QA summary also says as much.

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...instead of adding more pets, we felt it better to give more use to the job by adding actions to summoner.

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http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post2975182

Adding actions to the summoner, not the pets. Maybe they will throw us a bone in 4.0 or in a later 3.X patch, but I would rather be pleasantly surprised than raising a fuss on the forums later because of false assumptions from a poor translation.

Edit to fix link.

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Originally Posted by Spellbinder

I keep seeing this, and I have to keep repeating myself. Yoshi-P has made no statements of new pet abilities.

Listening to the Japanese (not the English interpreter because she kept making mistakes), he said rather than adding pets, in the long term it'd be better to focus on adding to the summoner him or herself. The English QA summary also says as much.


http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post2975182

Adding actions to the summoner, not the pets. Maybe they will throw us a bone in 4.0 or in a later 3.X patch, but I would rather be pleasantly surprised than raising a fuss on the forums later because of false assumptions from a poor translation.

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Well, I'm sorry. I haven't read through all the posts on there. Didn't think there was that big of a mistranslation.

My post is BS now lol.

I still stand by the fact that they look very interesting though... It's going to be very different opinions on it ofc, but I honestly don't care how a job is "supposed" to be, just about how fun and engaging it is to play.

You should know that, not everyone wants it to be more about the pet though... I keep hearing about everyone wanting it, here on the forums, but in the game, a lot of the ones that play SMN right now (and others too), like them right now, and actually want them to give this amount of focus on the summoner itself.

It's the same with all jobs pretty much, we've seen tons of people complain about the additions for every job, but there are a ton of people that like them, but just don't post about it here. Need to respect those people that like it too.

I used to be in favor of pets using abilities instead of us, and then Garuda started wasting her Enkindle 99% of the time (I click it, it goes on cooldown, nothing happens), and decided using Contagion 5-6 seconds after I clicked it, usually after one or two DoTs fell off. Egis are so slow and irresponsive in this game that making them use abilities instead of us would likely make me throw my computer through the window.

(That's also why Contagion needs to be moved from Garuda to us. Bard will have a similar ability that extends/strenghtens Venomous Bite and Windbite,so...)

Oh, and the only thing I didn't like in the SMN presentation was the animation for the Dreadwyrm Trance. Looked like a huge dead fish head floating above us, like the DRG Limit Break. The rest was brilliant !

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Originally Posted by Spellbinder

2. Tri-Disaster (new one) that applies Bio, Bio II, and Miasma at the same time. (Note that Yoshi-P didn't say it costs aetherflow, that was a fumble of the interpreter)

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Didn't Bayohne say..

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

*The stream shows off a video demonstration of summoner actions. Please note that all action names are tentative.

We’ll be making various adjustments to summoner which includes an action that simultaneously applies Bio, Bio II, and Miasma effects in exchange for Aetherflow, an attack that deals magic-based damage, and two other new actions at level 60 that will largely change your current rotations.

The ability Tri-Disaster has had its name changed to Tri-Bind since the effect didn’t make sense with the original name. In exchange, the aforementioned ability action that applies all three DoTs will be known as Tri-Disaster.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

Didn't Bayohne say..

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Listening to the video, this is how it was described.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZf7vBdsVu0 (Pleasenote I skipped the parts where the interpreter was speaking).

エーテルフローを消費する範囲攻撃、さらにバイオ、バイオラ、ミアズマの三つを全て同時にかけるアクションとか、新しい魔DDとかですね、ダイレクトダメージ魔法とか、あとは新しいその６０になってからローテーション、その今までのスキル回しに加えてくる二つのアクションなどが用意されます。
**Edit: I feel silly because I could've just looked at the JP QA Summary. Here's their's for comparison

エーテルフローを消費して放つ範囲攻撃、3つのDoT（バイオ／バイオラ／ミアズマ）が同時にかけられるアクション、
新しい魔法ダメージを与える攻撃、レベル60になってからのスキル回しに影響する新たな２つのアクションなど、さまざまな調整が加えられます。

Breaking this up we have:

エーテルフローを消費する範囲攻撃 - An area attack that uses aether flow.

さらにバイオ、バイオラ、ミアズマの三つを全て同時にかけるアクションとか - An action that casts Bio, Bio II, and Miasma at the same time.

新しい魔DDとかですね、ダイレクトダメージ魔法とか - A magic direct damage attack. (The single target one in the video)

あとは新しいその６０になってからローテーション、その今までのスキル回しに加えてくる二つのアクション - Two actions that will be added to (or rather affect) your rotation at level 60.

Thank you OP for having the guts to post a Positive SMN thread! I also agree with you and eagerly await the changes.

Gleeful Summoners unite!

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Originally Posted by Shuon

I think the general sentiment is that smn's mechanics are perfect only that the delivery is somewhat underwhelming.

I'm sure if the dreadwyrm trance involved turning the egi into the animation of bahamut's head and akh morn is cast by the egi, they would have been much happier.

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Not me. I'm excited to get flips and shit animations for my SMN. SMN has the most underwelming party presence from a visual perspective. I want to jump into the air and throw lazers! BLM > SMN as far as the cool factor goes with magic. Having anything to keep up with them makes me happy.

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Originally Posted by Craiger

I still stand by the fact that they look very interesting though... It's going to be very different opinions on it ofc, but I honestly don't care how a job is "supposed" to be, just about how fun and engaging it is to play.

You should know that, not everyone wants it to be more about the pet though... I keep hearing about everyone wanting it, here on the forums, but in the game, a lot of the ones that play SMN right now (and others too), like them right now, and actually want them to give this amount of focus on the summoner itself.

It's the same with all jobs pretty much, we've seen tons of people complain about the additions for every job, but there are a ton of people that like them, but just don't post about it here. Need to respect those people that like it too.

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I agree.

I like minions as much or more than just about anyone and I totally played SMN in XI, BUT think about what SMN was like without a subjob. It was literally you summon pet, you put pet on mob, you tell pet to do something twice a minute, you stand there. You really weren't a mage even though you had the largest MP pool because you didn't have native magic spells other than summons. SMN/WHM was a thing because there was a lack of people willing to heal and SMN were just that bored.

Think of every game that ever had a SMN in it. That wasn't their entire job. Most are some combination of WHM or BLM that were born with a horn or from some bloodline that lets them ALSO cast Summons. In FF6 you had to have the crystalized corpse of the summon equipped in your possession to be able to summon them and you could only have 1 per party member. It wasn't until FFX that summons would even stick around and Yuna was most certainly the WHM for your party.

I'm ecstatic that I'm not saddled with healing duties as a SMN and that I'm a DPS. Egi usually do about 1/3 of my damage and I generally think of them as my best DoT. If anything Dreadwyrm Trance makes me feel more like a higher tier SMN because I can summon the powers of Bahamut, generally one of the later summons in a FF game, and drop damage on my enemies like I've always done as my SMN in other FF games. This feels more like SMN than it has ever been in this game and I think they are going the right direction with it.

Adding new Egi's was not the ideal solution, no matter how much people clamored for them. We could get 4 new Egi's, but if we could only use one, we would essentially be leaving a good portion of our summons collecting dust in our spellbook. It would also be incredibly difficult to balance all Egi's as more and more come out.

I love the new Bahamut Trance, and the next step is for Square to have us channel other primals as well. These don't have to necessarily be DPS actions. Instead of "Tri-bind," why not have it be a Shiva channeling spell that casts an AOE Diamond Dust that roots enemies? Still as useless as our old Tri-disaster, but now with more flavor! A Phoenix summon spell could be added that casts a combat raise without the Weakness debuff, giving SMN's some unique party utility. A Golem/Alexander summon could add a brief shield buff for the party. And for balance purposes, these channeling spells could cost us Aetherflow.

By going this route, Square could add more classical "summons" without them being restricted to our "egis"

The only problem with summoner at this point is that everyone has a personal problem or ascetic problem with summoner. Everyone can't have their own personal version of the class.

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Originally Posted by Malevicton

The only problem with summoner at this point is that everyone has a personal problem or ascetic problem with summoner. Everyone can't have their own personal version of the class.

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People like to whine about little things. Gave 'em Akh Morgan Freeman, and possibly some form of Mega-Flare and they still whine.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

Bahamut casts megaflare, jerk!

#akhmorngate2015 #megaflare #neverforget

Akh morn can't melt megaflare beams.

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If i had to guess i would say mega/giga/terraflare might be SMNs new LB.

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Originally Posted by ChaozK

If i had to guess i would say mega/giga/terraflare might be SMNs new LB.

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Of the LB will differ depending on which Pet Skin you have out :v

The key issues for me with summoner are as follows:
Lack of Single Target and AoE pets (Boss and trash mobs).
Lack of burst damage for boss encounters like Tam Tara HM corpse grooms (just needed another 300 potency to add to the mix).
Remove stuns and silence from pets. Those who remember Ifrit HM and Chimera back in the day knows exactly what I mean here.
Give Titan a provoke so he could be a true emergency tank.

Does 3.0 fix any of these issue for me? Maybe one and that's a big maybe.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

The key issues for me with summoner are as follows:
Lack of Single Target and AoE pets (Boss and trash mobs).
Lack of burst damage for boss encounters like Tam Tara HM corpse grooms (just needed another 300 potency to add to the mix).
Remove stuns and silence from pets. Those who remember Ifrit HM and Chimera back in the day knows exactly what I mean here.
Give Titan a provoke so he could be a true emergency tank.

Does 3.0 fix any of these issue for me? Maybe one and that's a big maybe.

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But Dyvid who needs all that when we have Akh Morn? Iam going to strip down to no gear and get rid of my egis, apparently Ahk Morn and a spell rename is all this class needs to be good.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

The key issues for me with summoner are as follows:
Lack of Single Target and AoE pets (Boss and trash mobs).
Lack of burst damage for boss encounters like Tam Tara HM corpse grooms (just needed another 300 potency to add to the mix).
Remove stuns and silence from pets. Those who remember Ifrit HM and Chimera back in the day knows exactly what I mean here.
Give Titan a provoke so he could be a true emergency tank.

Does 3.0 fix any of these issue for me? Maybe one and that's a big maybe.

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Provoke on Titan would be sweet and I don't personally care about CC on pets because Ifrit's Stun is triggered for damage, not the stun. But that being said, neither are going to bar SMN from end game content.

I assume 'Lack of Single Target and AoE pets (Boss and trash mobs). ' is something like we have Garuda and Ifrit and you'd think Ifrit would be good for single target and Garuda would be better for AOE (which they kind of are but not with this ideology in place). Looks like they are putting that on the SMN and not the pets.

Lack of burst damage for boss encounters like Tam Tara HM corpse grooms (just needed another 300 potency to add to the mix). > We'll see how much burst they give us. I understand that some adds are difficult for SMN to burst down because of the time it takes for them to do damage effectively, but that is honestly on the dev team to not make content that you have to kill in less than 8 seconds with no possible setup for SMN. The same thing happened with Haukke Manor Hard with the double succubus adds. It wasn't the SMN's fault, it was a fight that was rigged against them if your tank didn't cater towards SMN. However, it's not like SMN wasn't good in T5 for taking care of Conflags. They just need setup. Tri-Disaster may alleviate by providing SMNs that setup but it also might not.