Summoners hope

I see alot of complaining about the summoners and how the devs are implementing them but I would just like to say this may be a good thing for the future...I think alot of players want their summons to be more unique in a sense of there pets , this can be fix simply by having a skill tree or a token system like pvp moves for their tank, melee, and range dps that is balance, this will cause the devs to easily work on future glamors and animation while adding a few new tricks to their pet actions.

Also adding a few gimmicks towards the summoner itself is never a bad thing just be patient final fantasy wont disappoint.

NOPE! Trance Dance is the only way son! First you trance to the left, then you trance to the right! Trance all day and trance all night!

but but but we get kanhandkn monhn you know that ability that any Final Fantasy fan should recognized as the trademark attack Bahamut has used for years...right?

Oh wait...

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Originally Posted by Galand

but but but we get kanhandkn monhn you know that ability that any Final Fantasy fan should recognized as the trademark attack Bahamut has used for years...right?

Oh wait...

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Don't you mean X-Flare?

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Originally Posted by Galand

but but but we get kanhandkn monhn you know that ability that any Final Fantasy fan should recognized as the trademark attack Bahamut has used for years...right?

Oh wait...

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I don't understand why you keep posting how upset you are that you got Akh Morn. Screw it, as a BLM main I'll take your Akh Morn since you don't want it. You can have your shitty megaflare that our WHM learned how to deal with 5 minutes into t13. Akh Morn? You know that attack that blows shit up like no tomorrow? You don't want that? Ok. I'll take it.

Furthermore, you really won't distinguish yourself from BLM at all if you start taking on "Flare" based attacks. You can be BLM 2.0!

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Originally Posted by Clarkamite

I don't understand why you keep posting how upset you are that you got Akh Morn. Screw it, as a BLM main I'll take your Akh Morn since you don't want it. You can have your shitty megaflare that our healers learned how to deal with 15 minutes into t13. Akh Morn? You know that attack that blows shit up like no tomorrow? You don't want that? Ok. I'll take it.

Furthermore, you really won't distinguish yourself from BLM at all if you start taking on "Flare" based attacks. You can be BLM 2.0!

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I'll take that deal, at least my flare will be mega.

Oh, and we already have shadow FLARE.

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Originally Posted by Trespar

I'll take that deal, at least my flare will be mega.

Oh, and we already have shadow FLARE.

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Shadow Flare? You can have that piece of crap too. That's a flare only in name.

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Originally Posted by Clarkamite

You can be BLM 2.0!

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But this is what every summoner on the forums seems to want.

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Originally Posted by Higashikata

But this is what every summoner on the forums seems to want.

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Fair enough. The Prosecution withdraws.

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Originally Posted by Clarkamite

I don't understand why you keep posting how upset you are that you got Akh Morn. Screw it, as a BLM main I'll take your Akh Morn since you don't want it. You can have your shitty megaflare that our WHM learned how to deal with 5 minutes into t13. Akh Morn? You know that attack that blows shit up like no tomorrow? You don't want that? Ok. I'll take it.!

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Can you quote me where I said Iam angry we got Ahk Morn? Oh wait...you cant because you have no idea what your talking about.

Iam upset that we have a laundry list of items wrong with the class, they show off one spell that only what 3% of the population of this game even knows what it is, then all the hardcore diehard fanboys jump on board and forget all of our problems and are praising the second coming of Summoners.

Do you understand that any time we bring up a valid area that needs adjustment everyone now says shut up you get Ahk Morn why are you crying?

No I can't bring up where you said you were angry you got Ahk Morn. I don't want to but I will go back and find your multiple quotes in each Summoner Sad Face thread where you bring up the fact that you were given Ahk Morn instead of Megaflare if you would like.

You may not be angry, but you're not sounding like you're not. Especially not when you keep bringing that up. It's not like you came into this thread, or the last one I saw you in, addressing anything other than, "But we should have gotten Megaflare."

I never said, "Shutup you get Ahk Morn why are you crying?" I just simply addressed your point about getting Ahk Morn. You make it out to be a bad thing because it's not named Megaflare. You don't even sound gracious.

Also people keep saying that now Summoners have burst dps.

Excuse me but where did they say this? Yoshi said we spend our first 30 seconds applying dots and building Bahamut aether stacks, THEN you go into Bahamut "trance" where you build energy to spend on Bahamut themed attacks. Iam sorry but that is not burst dps, thats alot of building up and saving stacks of crap to then switch to a stance to build more crap to then spend the crap

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Originally Posted by Galand

Iam sorry but that is not burst dps, thats alot of building up and saving stacks of crap to then switch to a stance to build more crap to then spend the crap

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whoa, hold on there a second. Building energy then unleashing it at once isn't a burst attack?

This right here make me curious, what is your definition of burst DPS?

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Originally Posted by Clarkamite

I never said, "Shutup you get Ahk Morn why are you crying?" I just simply addressed your point about getting Ahk Morn. You make it out to be a bad thing because it's not named Megaflare. You don't even sound gracious.

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Again your not even reading before you start smashing away at your keyboard, you need to open your eyes and read bro, I never stated that you said anything, I said "people", and at no point do I care about mega flare nor have even mentioned it in my posts.

If you would read correctly as I have stated I am complaining that the lolsmns have tossed out all of our major job problems for one flashy spell

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Originally Posted by Higashikata

whoa, hold on there a second. Building energy then unleashing it at once isn't a burst attack?

This right here make me curious, what is your definition of burst DPS?

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My definition of burst dps is what Blackmages do, they have direct control on how and WHEN they blast away at their spells.

Look at summoner now

First 30 seconds to build DOT and Bahamut Aether Stacks.
Second 30 seconds switch to Bahamut stance to then start saving energy to spend on Bahamut themed attacks.

That is not burst dps, burst dps is on the demand right now blast away spells, having to build up stacks and energy or whatever you want to call it is NOT burst dps, and if you take too long you gotta jump back out of it to get your dots going again then jump back into the stance.

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Originally Posted by Galand

My definition of burst dps is what Blackmages do, they have direct control on how and WHEN they blast away at their spells.

First 30 seconds to build DOT and Bahamut Aether Stacks.
Second 30 seconds switch to Bahamut stance to then start saving energy to spend on Bahamut themed attacks.

That is not burst dps,

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Blackmage:

Goes into umbral ice stance and uses ice spells building MP.
Go into astral fire stance using MP to use fire themed attacks.

Your logic says this is burst DPS, right?

Summoner:
Goes into Aether flow stance using DoTs and building bahamut stacks
Goes into Bahamut stance and starts spending bahamut stacks on bahamut themed attacks.

And this ISN'T burst DPS? You feeling ok man?

BLM can't "burst DPS" while in ice stance and summoner can't burst DPS if not in Bahamut stance.

Dude going into umbral ice to gain your mana back takes seconds to get enough to go back into umbral fire

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Originally Posted by Galand

Dude going into umbral ice to gain your mana back takes seconds to get enough to go back into umbral fire

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Oh man, I didn't realize that!

But wait, what's that?

They're still the same concept of building and bursting?

Myth busted everyone!

I'm curious where this summoner is who takes thirty seconds to dot up an enemy. Possibly Siberia? It's gotta be the worst Internet connection ever.

On a side note, as it currently stands, summoner is one of the highest dps for the first 30-60 seconds of an encounter. If that isn't burst... Then I'm not sure what is.

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Originally Posted by Whiston

I'm curious where this summoner is who takes thirty seconds to dot up an enemy. Possibly Siberia? It's gotta be the worst Internet connection ever.

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It got a bit lost in translation as usual. What they should have said is spending the first thirty seconds applying/maintaining DoTs and using all your Aetherflow stacks on Festers. Which most SMNs do unless there's a part in the fight coming up that requires you to hold on to them for a bit.

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Originally Posted by Higashikata

Blackmage:

Goes into umbral ice stance and uses ice spells building MP.
Go into astral fire stance using MP to use fire themed attacks.

Your logic says this is burst DPS, right?

Summoner:
Goes into Aether flow stance using DoTs and building bahamut stacks
Goes into Bahamut stance and starts spending bahamut stacks on bahamut themed attacks.

And this ISN'T burst DPS? You feeling ok man?

BLM can't "burst DPS" while in ice stance and summoner can't burst DPS if not in Bahamut stance.

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Err you have the BLM concept entirely backwards. BLMs do not build MP then cast fire spells and Flare; they cast fire spells and Flare then recover the MP through use of Umbral Ice. There is a massive difference there. At the start of a fight a BLM can open immediately with their burst damage if needed, they can even double Flare a group of adds right away if they want. They do not have to recover that MP until after they execute their burst combo.

In contrast Yoshi explained that SMNs build up to Dreadwyrm Trance by consuming Aetherflow stacks. They cannot immediately open with DT, they have to build the stacks first then switch to DT. Do you see the difference?

Burst damage usually matters most in shorter fights or when facing groups of adds. Being able to open with a burst combo with no ramp up time is what makes burst damage burst damage. BLMs have burst, SMNs don't.

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Originally Posted by Whiston

I'm curious where this summoner is who takes thirty seconds to dot up an enemy. Possibly Siberia? It's gotta be the worst Internet connection ever.

On a side note, as it currently stands, summoner is one of the highest dps for the first 30-60 seconds of an encounter. If that isn't burst... Then I'm not sure what is.

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I'm afraid you really don't know what burst damage is then. Burst damage is very high damage in a very short space of time, usually a single hit or many hits over a couple of seconds. SMNs do the complete opposite of burst damage: they deal sustained damage which takes a far longer ramp-up time but usually pays off by being higher overall over a longer period of time.

Fester is the highest burst damage a SMN has and it's restricted by both Aetherflow stacks and the DOT requirements, not to mention it is single target only.

In contrast a BLM's best burst skill is Flare which is AOE, hits much harder than Fester and has no real requirement to cast beyond having an Astral Fire 3 stack up for optimum damage. It has a fairly hefty cost to be paid after using the skill (it consumes all MP) but it is there to use on demand whenever the BLM needs it.

tldr; Anything requiring ramp up time is not burst.

Burst damage is being able to deal a large amount of damage in short space of time. Period.
You can twist definitions all you want but that discussion started because others were using burst damage in that context in the first.
You can't rebuke it by simply moving the goalpost, i.e. saying your definition is different and SMN doesn't fit within it.

You can have burst in your opener but you can also have burst within your rotation.
You can have burst more on-hand, or you can have conditional burst that require cooldowns or building of stacks.
These legitimate and historical uses of burst damage in MMOs.

You can say SMN might not have burst in the very start of their opener(which probably won't be true anymore, being able to put all the dots on at the start).
Or it might be less on-demand(that remains to be seen).
But the whole Trance mechanic is clearly an added Burst phase in the SMN rotation.

The only way to refute that it is make a narrow definition for the sole purpose of denying this because it's not the right type of burst(for you).
That's really not an argument. Especially when refuting someone else's use of a term which was clearly much less narrow.

Yeah when an add pops and needs to be burned asap lemme tell you how awesome that goes on my smn. Or when someone gets stuck in ice on Shiva or the gaol on titan. Lol.

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Originally Posted by Iromi

Yeah when an add pops and needs to be burned asap lemme tell you how awesome that goes on my smn. Or when someone gets stuck in ice on Shiva or the gaol on titan. Lol.

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That's not the point....Allyrion was merely pointing out that regardless if how it works SMN's DT and even Fester and Enkindle are classed as burst DPS abilities, which is an unequivocal truth! Neither DT, Fester or Enkindle are DoT's. The abilities themselves do a single spike of damage and that's it! AKA BURST!....

However you are right that SMN needs more burst openers for things like Titan's Goals. However that does not alter the fact that DT/Fester/Enkindle still fall under the burst category...just saying. However with Tri Disaster now inflicting Miasma, Bio and Bio II instantly it would be very easy to just pop Fester straight after. So depending on the cool down for this new Tri Disaster this could be a great, quick burst DPS combo for SMN.

Last time I checked, when I bane on titan and then fester on the goal it's almost death. And being able to continue dpsing via my dots and my pet when on ice or goal or whatever is probably one of our very unique features as a dps class.

We cant burst as high as a black mage ... Yet. But we are the mobility mage that can DPS on the run very effectivly.

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Originally Posted by Iroukan

Last time I checked, when I bane on titan and then fester on the goal it's almost death. And being able to continue dpsing via my dots and my pet when on ice or goal or whatever is probably one of our very unique features as a dps class.

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Actually I mentioned nothing about Bane....I was referring to the new Tri Disaster, SMN's new and improved ability that casts Miasma, Bio and Bio II on a single target INSTANTLY!.....so actually it would be very quick and easy to pop Bane and/or Fester after this for a quick burst combo, as I said. Depending how many Aetherflow stacks the new Tri Distaster takes up of course (if any).

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Originally Posted by SoloWingMetatron

That's not the point....Allyrion was merely pointing out that regardless if how it works SMN's DT and even Fester and Enkindle are classed as burst DPS abilities, which is an unequivocal truth! Neither DT, Fester or Enkindle are DoT's. The abilities themselves do a single spike of damage and that's it! AKA BURST!....

However you are right that SMN needs more burst openers for things like Titan's Goals. However that does not alter the fact that DT/Fester/Enkindle still fall under the burst category...just saying. However with Tri Disaster now inflicting Miasma, Bio and Bio II instantly it would be very easy to just pop Fester straight after. So depending on the cool down for this new Tri Disaster this could be a great, quick burst DPS combo for SMN.

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Oh I know..that was just me making a random point..lol it sucks to be on SMN and need very fast damage in short amount of time :( I am hoping this is something the devs are aware of and will give us something to help that in the expansion ^^

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Originally Posted by Iromi

Oh I know..that was just me making a random point..lol it sucks to be on SMN and need very fast damage in short amount of time :( I am hoping this is something the devs are aware of and will give us something to help that in the expansion ^^

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This is true, though that is probably why they chose to focus on giving us this new Tri Disaster and Dreadwyrm Trance, to give us some more burst potential. Instead of fixing the Egi, which I assume will come later :)

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Originally Posted by SoloWingMetatron

This is true, though that is probably why they chose to focus on giving us this new Tri Disaster and Dreadwyrm Trance, to give us some more burst potential. Instead of fixing the Egi, which I assume will come later :)

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Yes :) I agree, they HAVE to know it is an issue haha.

I am really looking forward to getting to try this stuff out! And I imagine there is also abilities/skills that we have not seen yet too :D Also would like to say the animations look beautiful, we can finally do more then push a book out in front of us guys! Haha.

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Originally Posted by Iromi

Yes :) I agree, they HAVE to know it is an issue haha.

I am really looking forward to getting to try this stuff out! And I imagine there is also abilities/skills that we have not seen yet too :D Also would like to say the animations look beautiful, we can finally do more then push a book out in front of us guys! Haha.

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Exactly! Also we are yet to see what SMN's new LB3 will be, maybe it will be summoning a full Primal, or larger Egi to do a signature move like Diamond Dust and then disappear. Or maybe it's Megaflare or even an Odin move, so many possibilities but we shall find out on the release of HW! :)

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Originally Posted by Galand

Again your not even reading before you start smashing away at your keyboard, you need to open your eyes and read bro, I never stated that you said anything, I said "people", and at no point do I care about mega flare nor have even mentioned it in my posts.

If you would read correctly as I have stated I am complaining that the lolsmns have tossed out all of our major job problems for one flashy spell

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First of all, BRO, I'm not your bro. Secondly, fine you know what? You never said anything about Megaflare? Here I'll go search for you. Give me one second.

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Originally Posted by Galand

I swear people see the stupid light show and did not even listen to anything else and just rampantly defend and go nuts for it. Oh you know that trademark ability of Bahamut that any Final Fantasy fan should recognize..oh wait thats Mega Flare...... WTF is ahk morn? Oh that spell that only 1% of the population has seen, oh okay aim so happy iam getting that

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To address your point about me smashing away at my keyboard, I'm doing no such thing. I had a differing opinion to your "upsetness" that you were given Ahk Morn. I made no attacks. Maybe you didn't say me directly when you said, "People," but you were addressing me when I said something about it. I've read everything you've written. Clearly. You on the other hand, I don't know if you even know what you wrote seeing as how you claim you've never cared about Megaflare but, oh look, clearly you do.

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Originally Posted by Galand

Can you quote me where I said Iam angry we got Ahk Morn? Oh wait...you cant because you have no idea what your talking about.

Iam upset that we have a laundry list of items wrong with the class, they show off one spell that only what 3% of the population of this game even knows what it is, then all the hardcore diehard fanboys jump on board and forget all of our problems and are praising the second coming of Summoners.

Do you understand that any time we bring up a valid area that needs adjustment everyone now says shut up you get Ahk Morn why are you crying?

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What is that list now?

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Originally Posted by Sen_Terrechant

What is that list now?

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While I have my own grievances about certain changes (or the lack thereof), I'm also curious to see another viewpoint of realistic problems with the job.

I'm strongly considering setting up another feedback thread (like these: http://goo.gl/ELije0 (EN), http://goo.gl/dxYvz2 (JP)) a week or two after release, and hopefully have some civil discussion about where the job is at, and where it's likely heading.

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Originally Posted by Spellbinder

I'm strongly considering setting up another feedback thread (like these: http://goo.gl/ELije0 (EN), http://goo.gl/dxYvz2 (JP)) a week or two after release, and hopefully have some civil discussion about where the job is at, and where it's likely heading.

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I remember this thread and one or 2 others similar to it in the beta phase. The suggestions were well thought out and the post tone in general was very civil. I am also planning a thread for more in general Egi/SMN feedback and suggestions after a couple weeks or so of Heavensward.

So many fourm posts complaining about SMN are very nostalgic based or asking for things that have already been discussed, most aesthetic wise, and not many are looking to improve the job but just redo it. I'm sure there are many endgame SMNs that have interesting suggestions as SMN by no means is perfect and there's ways to help appease the egi haters in a sense without redoing the egis entirely. Overall it would be nice having more constructive threads that are trying to improve what is here instead of completely change it.

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Originally Posted by Iroukan

Last time I checked, when I bane on titan and then fester on the goal it's almost death.

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I find it best to just stay on Titan and use your stacks for fester instead of blowing it on bane where Titan HM is concerned as you don't get much potency out of your baned DOT's. EX wise just DOT up the second gaol when they pop and then switch back to hitting craggy ass.

Famitsu Translation

Summoner

Tri-disaster: Learned at level 56, applies Bio, Bio II, and Miasma. Original Tri-disaster has been renamed "Tri-bind."
Bahamut Aether: New stacking buff gained for 30 seconds by using stacks of Aetherflow, increases magic damage dealt.
Dreadwyrm Trance: Can be activated with Bahamut Aether, allows execution of more powerful actions.
Ruin III: Available during Dreadwyrm Trance, increased damage with reduced MP cost.
Deathflare: ???

The wording isn't 100% clear that Ruin III is only available during Dreadwyrm Trance, but here's the straight translation: "During Dreadwyrm Trance, it's possible to further increase DPS while reducing spent MP by using the new spell Ruin III."

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Originally Posted by TripPsyc

Famitsu Translation

Summoner

Tri-disaster: Learned at level 56, applies Bio, Bio II, and Miasma. Original Tri-disaster has been renamed "Tri-bind."
Bahamut Aether: New stacking buff gained for 30 seconds by using stacks of Aetherflow, increases magic damage dealt.
Dreadwyrm Trance: Can be activated with Bahamut Aether, allows execution of more powerful actions.
Ruin III: Available during Dreadwyrm Trance, increased damage with reduced MP cost.
Deathflare: ???

The wording isn't 100% clear that Ruin III is only available during Dreadwyrm Trance, but here's the straight translation: "During Dreadwyrm Trance, it's possible to further increase DPS while reducing spent MP by using the new spell Ruin III."

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Just to clarify, the bolded is innacurate, or at the very least was not stated in that article. One of the recent Dengeki articles, however, mentions that activating Dreadwyrm Trance increases your damage.

Why is this turning into a Burst DPS argument though.

You know who else has Burst DPS? Dragoon.

You know who wishes they had some twelve-be-forsaken sustained? Dragoon.

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Originally Posted by Kuurei

Why is this turning into a Burst DPS argument though.

You know who else has Burst DPS? Dragoon.

You know who wishes they had some twelve-be-forsaken sustained? Dragoon.

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That argument was 5 days ago.

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Originally Posted by Galand

Dude going into umbral ice to gain your mana back takes seconds to get enough to go back into umbral fire

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Technically it can take anywhere from instant to nine seconds to get full mana depending on ticks and when and how you do it. I felt like pointing this out because I can.